Dont punish people who want to respec

Feedback and Suggestions
21

If you have comparable progress in LE to where you have dozens or hundreds of regrets spare in PoE, you need 5 minutes to re-level your skill back from 10 to 20. Not hours of your lifetime. With lvl 60, you’re not at that point. That’s more like lvl 75 to 80, when you have all your 20 skill points and start running empowered monolith, where you get much more EXP.

A skill with 10 points isn’t useless. It is sufficient to kill one or two enemy groups - and you have another 3-4 points to spend. It’s really that fast.

Respeccing in PoE takes time, too. If it’s only one or two points, sure, that’s very fast. But that’s not what we are talking about, right? Depending on how much of your passive skill tree you reset, you are busy for a couple of minutes of clicking.

LE’s system can be improved, of course. Some things were already mentioned here or in other threads.

  • More saved skillpoints during the early game. I think up to skill level 10, a full refund would not be a problem at all.
  • The ability to set and reset points and finalize it with an “accept changes” or “discard changes” button.
  • The arena entrance with the dummies could be re-designed so you can temporally change skills, with a reset to your snappshotted skilldistribution as soon as you leave the area.
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22

Were none of the already existing threads insufficient for this?

Yes it is & yes they have. I won’t treat you like a child & just link you to everything though so you may wish to put your big boy pants on and do some search/googling. I believe in you!

In PoE, if you de-lvl a skill gem, don’t you have to then re-level it? PoE’s passive tree is not the equivalent to LE’s skill trees.

Yes, having to accept the changes to the skill tree allowing you to move the new skill point around before committing (like PoE does with it’s passive tree) would be nice.

This would be nice.

The biggest punishment is having these threads being constantly created because, presumably, people wouldn’t feel special if they just replied to a post instead of making their own thread and saying absolutely nothing new.

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23

This is the feedback and suggestions section. If the devs wanted the game defended with such kneejerk arrogance, presumably they would do it themselves.

However… here’s a 2 year old Reddit thread stating the dev position on it. If it’s still valid, I’m glad to have found it. It confirms that this isn’t the game for me (though I suspect they are going to have to revisit it, because the things said in that response show that either the game has changed since then, or that dev doesn’t play his own game).

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24

I’ll try to break down why a re-spec system like this isn’t detrimental but actually helpful hence.

First and foremost… yes, it’s meant to be ‘punishing’, but there’s reasons for that, if intended by the devs to act that way or not is of no matter, it’s what the design itself causes.

So, first off, why should you loose points when doing a re-spec rather then it being ‘free’?
This one might not seem all too clear right away, but the answer has already been given here.
Because it makes it so you can’t have a ‘one fit all’ character. Switching between clearing big amounts of enemies and single target dps would be quite easy. With the lack of that option given the loss in overall damage it means you’ll have to build a character in a way that it can deal with all the situations presented in the game… as you made it personally.

As already the example of Path of Exile has come in… let’s take that once more as an example:
You can switch out skills there with ease, put a area gem out, slap a single target one in. Immediate switch from killing large clusters of enemies to doing lots of damage to a single one.

Sounds fine, right?
But it isn’t.

First off, it causes builds to spring up which rely on using this option in the game, it is clunky to do, a ‘hassle’ felt by many, but for the sake of ‘efficiency’ several people will do it despite feeling ‘bad’. And some of them will even loose interest quicker, because first and foremost a game is supposed to give you as much dopamine as possible, reducing the friction points for being ‘clunky’ in places it can.

It’s a very real element that needs to be taken into consideration and causes people to get burned out from a game after all, it literally causes people to quit a game… which sounds wild but well, it’s simply the case.

Path of Exile has a ton of those things built in, their design philosophy is directly based on causing the players frustrating moments to reduce them leaning towards doing some things… but never to stop them from doing them in the first place! ‘Play as clunky as you want, your choice!’ is the method there.
So then it leads to mechanics like a high-friction trade-system, which frustrates people.
It leads to skill-switching on the fly, which is annoying.
It leads to outright gear-swapping for different encounters without a ‘loadout-system’ in place. Which also… is a hassle.

It’s even represented in their setup for their end-game, the mapping. Rather then providing a fluid way to play through their maps - which are baseline the same as the monoliths - you walk 10 steps… stop for a mechanic, switch up your play-style immediately to interact with it… return for 15 steps… find another mechanic. You never get into a ‘flow’ where you can just relax and turn off your brain outside of doing the basic ‘dodge attacks, kill stuff’ things.

It burns you out.

So why hindering people even to switch the same skill around freely?
Well, for the same reasons. But it’s not as severe. The implications of switching over a single skill are less intense, so it can be argued about ‘are the downsides coming with allowing it freely still too big?’ at which I would say… ‘maybe’. But it leads to at least a discussion for it. Still, the same clunky behavior would be intrinsic for it without any sort of ‘loadout-system’ in place.

In answer to the PoE respec system:
It’s one of the WORST systems out there, being inherently damaging to their game actually, making the need for using build-guides rather then doing stuff yourself overwhelming.

It’s baffling to me you’re even suggesting it to be better when you’re saying ‘The game doesn’t respect my time’… because Path of Exile shits on your time and then shoves you face-first into that steaming pile on top of it.

Made a mistake in building your character early game? Ah… just make a new character and start from scratch! You’re stuck now, no chance to fix it!
Want to try out a few different builds for your class? Well, better play for a few days to acquire the necessary currency! Miniscule downsides? Pffft… nah, you’re going to work your darn ass off to be allowed to try things out!
Only needing play-time to acquire the option to respec, not using other resources? Nah, forget it, because regret orbs are quite valuable actually, not some measly gold you would get from a single gold-shrine… nono, it’s enough value to outfit a mid-game character (start of maps) right away with the basic necessities!

So your argument it inherently flawed. Sure, it can feel not as nice for you personally… but objectively it’s a far less punishing method then most competition while also keeping the usage of the design itself intact

As on the missclick issue:
I agree wholeheartedly there! An ‘Undo’ button to take care of those should be available, that one’s a good suggestion. Loosing the ability to do so the moment you close the window.

Respec during campaign:
Also a good point there. Raising the minimum skill floor and making re-earning it more in line with the progression stage would be a good one. Which makes me baffled even more since you’re linking to a 2 year old thread which mostly focuses on early game and - as myself - causes people to be baffled by any sort of outcry related to end-game functionality.

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25

If players are able to respec without friction, the meta will become constantly respeccing to be the best at whatever their current task is. Mike stated on a stream that class identity is a big part of EHG’s design, and that they feel it’s okay that not every build can do every task equally well.

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26

No offense Kulze, but that’s too much to respond to. We’d end up miring this thread in crazily long reply posts. Suffice to say half of what you have said about PoE is actually incorrect, and I disagree with your conclusion. I don’t think you guys are being honest about the time cost of the system - especially during the leveling process, which is when most players need to be able to adjust things.

As for the point above that the system in some way defends the idea of class distinction (something I love), and somehow prevents builds being able to do everything, that’s a bit of a strawman - and a separate topic.

27

It is indeed, however it doesn’t need to be spammed with a bajillion new threads about the exact same topic (& stating the exact same thing, there is truely nothing new under the sun).

Yup, that’s the one. That is what they have always stated (after they made the changes that Mike mentioned in his post in that thread).

Which is sad. A friend of mine really couldn’t get into Helldivers within the 2 hours of gameplay that steam gives you so he refunded, which is a pity 'cause I was looking forward to playing with him.

Why do you say that? What do you consider has changed? Having played LE for many years & having experienced the skill levelling pre-change, nothing he said 3 years ago feels any different to me today.

28

I can only tell you as a first time player who has played almost every ARPG ever made, that the system is punitive to the point that I’ve abandoned my character. Perhaps it is more balanced at endgame where XP gains make the reacquisition of lost skill points trivial. At mid level, that is certainly not the case.

If that is “almost too forgiving” as ekimarcher said in that response, well, I’ve been around long enough to know that that exposes a sense for fun that is way out of line with my own.

Let me further explain my main problem with the system though, in case any of the devs actually read this. It is not that there is a cost to respeccing, it’s that the cost cannot be mitigated, and cannot be prepared for, and directly steals my time. There is no way for that not to feel bad.

As an example, PoE’s respeccing orbs (which system is by no means perfect, I am using it as an example only) can be gained 3 separate ways - by dropping during gameplay, by purchase via trade from other players, or by conversion of other currency at particular NPCs. That means I can prepare for a respec, and if I haven’t managed to gain all the orbs I need through my own gameplay, there are alternative paths to acquire them. I am faced with a difficult problem, but given the agency to solve it.

Compare that to LE, where no matter who I am or what I have done, I am forced through a time tunnel in order to adjust a build and try out things - something any player who is actively engaging with the game systems is going to do. A tunnel, by the way, that is at its most punitive when the character is most likely to have to go through it, and at the point it is least able to do so. How is that “the right ballpark”, as ekimarcher has said?

As I have said, perhaps the effect of this is greatly reduced at endgame, but that is something I won’t ever know. The friction of having to deal with it up to mid level has been enough to push me - a long time ARPG enthusiast - away from the game completely for now. I can’t be the only one.

29

Yeah, and that’s ok. People enjoy different things. My kids enjoy auto-clickers…

As have I, just don’t see it as as punitive as you feel it is. :person_shrugging:t3:

30

I am honest, since I didn’t talk about the levelling process. I responded to your - if we want to use such words: dishonest - comparison of PoE’s late endgame to LE’s early late game when you just touched the monolith, which is more akin to T1-T4 maps.

I agree that campaign to early monolith could be more forgiving to encourage early experimentation.

As a side note:

Feelings don’t care for logic and reason. If you feel punished, that’s okay, I’m not telling you that your feeling is invalid. Not every game can be designed to everyone’s taste.

Of course, you see some like-minded people complaining about it, and fewer or no threads from people praising the system. People who are content with the current situation have much less reason to start a thread. They just happily play the game.

So, just because you and some others feel unhappy and speak out, doesn’t mean that the majority feels that way and the game will fail if the devs don’t change it. Disclaimer: I don’t pretend to know how the majority feels.

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31

Ignoring the jibes to engage with actual discussion points, I think you might be conflating me with some of the others who have responded here. But also, people don’t play games for logic and reason. If something “feels” bad, it’s a shorthand way of saying that it is in some way unfair within the rules and confines of the game systems.

I am a long time dev myself, and spent no little part of that in QA. I’m acutely aware of what game balance feels like when it’s off. All players who play a lot of games are. I’m also speaking as someone who has never picked up the game before, and so am not “nose-blind” to it’s failings, as someone who is familiar with it by necessity often becomes (QA especially, and we had to be aware of it).

All that to say, the respeccing system is objectively off. It’s not the only game system that is, of course, and maybe it’s more noticeable to me than others. But it’s off for the reasons I have outlined.

I don’t have a dog in this fight. I’m not defending anything. I’m just looking at a new build the way I always do. It takes quite a bit to knock me out of the suspension of disbelief and enjoyment that a game brings, because I love them. And I can endure a lot of friction (I mean, I play ARPGs). So when it happens, it’s a good sign something is up.

Of course others will disagree, and usually those who love and are familiar with the game, and rush to its defense. As a passionless discussion though, or even an outlying point on an otherwise evenly curving graph, the point stands. Those outliers are the ones that always get you, if you don’t look at them.

As I’m no longer playing, though, and am not the target audience anymore, I’ll cease from input.

32

You do compare your lvl 60 experience to the PoE endgame experience. You describe PoE’s post scarcity late game when you have enough spare regrets. You tell people who refer to LE’s late game respec experience that they are disingenuous.

Did I got you wrong?

33

I’ll always be advocating for “let players respec everything at any time without any cost”

What purpose does hindering the process serve? What game-breaking outcome would come to be if it were the case? None.

Let players change mastery/points/whatever without cost at any time, and people will actually want to involve themselves in testing various builds even more.

34

If it was “objectively off”, why isn’t it universally reviled?

Balance is a subjective thing, there is no single version of that particular “truth”. You feel like it’s off, others feel like it’s ok.

35

Yes, you got me completely wrong. PoE awards Regret Orbs all the way through the leveling experience to faciliate the minor adjustments especially new players always are going to want. They also drop quite commonly during normal gameplay. And you can purchase them from an NPC. Even at very low level you have enough orbs to respect points at will, for the most part. At endgame it’s rarely an issue, and only if you’re broke.

LE does the opposite with it’s time and XP stealing system. But now all I’m doing is repeating myself, so I’ll stop.

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36

I’m all in for that aswell. Freedom of choice? Hell yeah
Just think it’s not fair to say this game is more punishing than all others regarding build Respec. It really isn’t… it’s one of the most forgiving ones.

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37

People liking this post must’ve had everything handed to them at all times, otherwise I can’t explain how you can complain about such a permissive and player-friendly mechanic of respeccing. Have you ever played any other game ever?

Please don’t remove the level-down thing from skill respec, it’s mandatory.

This isn’t MSPaint to have it however you want, a game needs to incentivize gameplay but also prolong or ‘trickle-down’ the dopamine in order for the game to have any kind of longevity. Getting everything instantly is such a zoomer issue istg, it would make the game unsatisfying.

38

even when it is going really fast it will hold ppl back from doing it becous it sets you back.

39

I feel like you are not comparing apples to apples when comparing the skill trees in LE to the passive tree in POE. If you want to change your skill gems in POE, you either have to buy them from the vendors and have them autoleveled to certain level(not 20), or buy them from the act 6 vendor and start from level 1. Which leveling skills from around 17 to level 20 in POE takes hours, or even days. In LE it takes alot less time relevel your skills.

It would be more correct to compare the passive tree in POE and LE to each other. And it is way cheaper and easy to change out points in your passive tree in LE, than in POE. As the gold required in LE is minimal, where the regret orbs are much more expensive or time consuming to aquire.

In my opinion, comparing LE’s skill tress to POE passive tree is comparing apples to oranges.

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40

100% agreed
People thinking a LE usable skill is the same as PoE’s passive tree (PASSIVE), and saying how that’s instant and respeccing skills is not, are just out of touch. I can’t even fathom how that’s a comparison a living being can make.
LE Skills = Gems. In LE, skills are empowered by their skill trees. In PoE these are the support gems.
LE Class Passives = Passive tree
How can this be hard in any way bro

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