Assuming that DQ has a rough spread of drops equally around the player (not sure this is actually the case tho), then its about half of the arrows that drop behind you as you progress… +2 idols DO make a difference by increasing the number of drops so, as you say, you cannot help pick them up as there are statistically more in front of you.
For me personally its still not enough as from my own testing there are still instances where the arrows can end up behind you as you progress. So while its a valid suggestion that would lesson the issue for others, for me the +2 is like a band-aid solution that doesnt address the problem itself…
I understand that this is not such a problem for other players and my personal preferences might turn out to be in the minority & therefore not be considered for addition/influence into the game but hey, giving my two cents…
Same here. I don’t like the mechanic very much. I’d like to have a mechanik so you can pick up several arrows and keep them for a much longer duration.
This way you can fire it, concentrate on picking some arrows up and then use it with consecutively attacks.
The current implementation is ok for HoA. But every other skill doesn’t really work well. Using it for DA for example is so damn tedious.
Other than for Hail Of Arrows and CD Detonating Arrow, I think Dark Quiver really is not mandatory for any build.
This skill, is the solely reason I enjoy playing marksman, without that skill I would probably not played any marksman at all.
If you don’t like it, don’t use it, there are many other options.
Maybe this will get even better, once Rogue get’s more skills to choose from, since rogue has the least amount of skills available currently.
Skills like this are so unique and mechanically changing how you play a build, I really hope they keep it.
If you want a more straight forward build without relying on running around picking up arrows, just skip the skill.
If we follow this rule, we might end up with a very empty game.
Personally I find it sad that there are some skills that are so niche or only one branch out of a bunch is viable.
If I were a dev I’d try to make it a really cool skill that is valued by the player base and would not be ok with the majority of people saying “it’s tedious to play”.
Many people propably already follow your suggestion and don’t play this skill.
There are many suggestions that could improve the skill. Don’t know if you think this would destroy the skill for you. But in this case people could again just say
This might work too… It would still mean running back to fetch arrows, but if it were like reloading a revolver and guaranteed the next X shots benefitted, then this could alleviate my aversion to running back to fetch one arrow at a time…
I would not say that i despise that skill, but you are definitely not in the minority to find that skill awkward to play Like some of you guys already mentioned, HoA and Ballista seems like the only skills made for DQ synergies, especially the playstyle.
I simply dont like this “for your next arrow” buff. It doesnt make sense for ailment builds or in general fast hitting attacks that rely on constant attacking. Walking to a black arrow reduces your dps more than picking up an arrow that buffs only your next shot.
There were quite some discussions already on the forum about dark quiver:
This is an interesting take… I would prefer that skills are matched to the general class ideal that the devs are designing around… and then have uniques/legendaries/mastery end tree passives/perhaps even “edge of skill nodes” that create Unique niche builds…
For me this then allows the majority to use any or all skills for any build and only really specialise in a niche build through proper commitment to skill nodes, finding build defining uniques or spending passives to a specific goal…
It would be interesting to know if the devs have discussed this design philosophy anywhere in the past - I would like to read what they said if anyone knows where I might find it…
If very creative and cool “niche” nodes are only hidden inside skill spec trees and unique/set items.
The base class can very quickly become “generic” on the surface, for a new player.
If i would log into the game the first time and discover that after a few paly hours I don’t find anything that stands out and is really creative or exciting, I would probably just drop the class.
Yes there are some pretty generic skills, that can be turned to really cool ones later (like Fireball for example).
But generally all classes have a bunch of really outstanding skills, which for me Dark Quiver is. There is nothing compareable to it in other games, other than builds revoling around picking up orbs/health orb for combat buffs.
If oyu don’t like the base functionality I would prefer having a few branches inside the skill spec tree, to be able to transform that skills into something you prefer.
For example:
What about a node, that makes a Black Arrow buff the next X amount of attacks ailment applications, but doesn’t buff their base dmg?
And another node, where you cna store up to X amount of black arrows at once and then spend them in a row.
If you combine both of those nodes, but makes black arrows appropiately weaker, that could be a solution.
Yes, we already have a mechanic like this in the game. Jade Arrows on Shift already boost a number of upcoming attacks for both ailment and hit playstyles. The amount of arrows/skillpoints you can put in there are perfectly balanced around shift’s cooldown so that you basically can keep it 100% up.
Like i said before, HoA, Ballista and the 15% kill threshold chance for Cinder Strike node doesnt need to be changed. I like the CS node because you need to time that and i like the tactical approach since 15% kill threshold is already a strong and underrated node for bossing.
But the Dark Quiver buffs for Multishot, Flurry, Puncture, Detonating Arrow and the Toxic Quiver node there needs to be a similar mechanic like Jade Arrows (for example each point invested into ‘‘Rending Shots’’ grants you a stack for MS buffs; each point invested into ‘‘Crimson Quiver’’ grants you a stack for Puncture buffs; each point invested into Toxic Quiver…etc.)
You can also work around with a ‘‘recently’’ mechanic. So picking up a black arrow grants you a buff for 4 seconds (for those nodes mentioned before). That would make DQ more versatile for many builds and skills.
I know Dark quiver is a buff skill and meant to have something for almost all rogue/marksman skills making its tree quite big but I was thinking it would be really cool to have a node that causes enemies to pick up DQ when they go over it and it increases damage taken for a few sec/few hits. There could be a few nodes behind it also like 1 for making it apply efficacious toxins(more dot dmg), 1 for making it apply a lot of crit vulnerability/chance to get crit/more damage taken from crits, 1 for flat resist reduction, and finally 1 that makes it so it doesn’t get picked up but just applies the effects in a medium area but you can have only 1 arrow and 25% reduced effects.
Also maybe it would be cool to have a node that makes the arrows homing in on you (like spires so they don’t actually hit you) but has the arrows spread out over like 10 seconds.
Edit: Though I guess this would be better off as another skill
Also does anyone really use umbral resolution ?
Me neither. And as a result I think they care about feedback of people finding a skill tedious to play.
In context of this conversation not viable means tedious. I think most of the people got my point. There are interactions for half a dozen of skills and only 2 are viable. Because the rest isn’t worth it, tedious, unfun.
I’d rather improve the skills we already have when they are really unpopular, instead if just adding new stuff. DQ only needs some tweaks and perks to be possibly more fun.
Keeping in mind that I’ve not played a build with DQ, thus idea may well be terrible, but it occurred to me as I read this thread.
What if DQ functioned similarly to a Primalist minion skill? Perhaps using the skill fires the arrows as it does now. Each arrow picked up creates a charge lasting a few seconds. You activate a charge by pressing the skill hotkey again and it applies a (dev determined) buff to your next bow attack.
To my mind, the charge timer (which reverts the hotkey back to base ability once all charges are consumed/expired) maintains a level of risk/reward by forcing you to weigh the benefit of using it in combat rather than it just being a pre-fight buff step. Conversely, using charges allows one to ensure that the buff is applied to the attack you want.
I know, you’re like, “WHAT?! Why do you have Crit in a Poison DoT build! It does nothing!”
Please read Dark Arrow node “Tide of Darkness” (far right of the skill tree)
Then realize I have a 692% chance to Crit every 4 seconds thanks to the Amulet.
Gonna kinda use Mike’s words against him here: Restriction breeds creativity.
The issue here, in my opinion, is that the Rogue class is currently extremely secular between the two masteries. There’s not a lot of variety (yet) with skills, and Dark Quiver makes a lot of sense for a lot of builds for MM. It’s a general buff skill that currently you’re not going to do much better slotting a different skill with something else. The same could be argued with Shift. Are you going to not spec shift and use it?
I wouldn’t say the DQ turns me off of MM, in fact, MM is currently my main. I would just say this is more currently a byproduct of Rogue being the newest class than anything along with two secular masteries.
Now will I think DQ be preferred in certain builds? Absolutely, HoA builds in particular get a huge boost with DQ and the two skills are very complimentary/synergistic
It’s not that DQ serves HOA the most while it is not that good for other builds.
DQ is useless for all other builds that need you to attack in high frequency. It’s a DPS loss in all that cases. Because in the time you run around collecting a single dark arrow that boost solely your next attack, you could have attacked maybe 5 times. For stacking ailments this is not viable. The increased chance to apply an ailment with the DQ buff doesn’t compensate.
Same is for direct damage. Maybe in edge cases where you have to evade an enemy attack and you would have moved anyway, collecting an arrow is ok. But only if the arrow is not too far away or sticking directly in an enemy ground effect.
This skill is unique and good on paper. But it doesn’t really work in reality. Either there has to be a mechanical change (let us collect more arrows than one and get rid if the timer) or the numbers have to be increased massively.
Currently it’s only playable with HOA or Balista. Every other build will be gimped. And it’s not that the skill is so much fun to play that you would ignore its weakness to just have fun with it - at least in my opinion.
There is a detonating build as well. Suckerpunch snapshots. So you can pick up a black arrow, hit a high power starter then unload suckerpunch stacks into it building that initial big arrow.
I do agree with you that DQ does not make a lot of sense for rapid strike skills like channeled flurry/MS price with it being a single charge at a time and on a timer. Also the MS pierce node only is ver bleh and doesn’t do much if anything, at least with flurry it applies to the three hits since a multi hit attack.
However, it has usefulness with other builds such as CS with on demand first strike access without the need for Overexertion and the subsequent mana efficiency nodes. Which you will probably want to invest in if going that route and as Trikster said, the 15% kill threshold is very nice.
The DA node could probably use a damage increase with explosion, but Nature’s Fury should still boost the damage for Fire/Lightning/Cold, though I can test this as I’m not 100% sure but I think it should.
Outside of possibly non-HoA ailment builds, it’s also not like flurry/MS builds are hurting currently. Even non-bowmage, channeled flurry with MS is doing pretty well. That’s not an excuse that DQ shouldn’t be looked at and improved upon, but with the class being so young, there is plenty of room to grow to implement other skills to help compliment those builds.
The biggest reason why I’m not all gung-ho for the changes to the mechanic is mainly because of the effects it will have on HoA builds. If I can collect multiple Dark Arrows, along with shift’s Jade Arrows and all the sources of HoA duration extension. At nearly full mana I can pop off three HoA in relatively quick succession and I can comfortably maintain two at any given time, three if I’m concentrating purely on offense. If I can maintain a store of DA along with Jade Arrows… why wouldn’t you play HoA only?
yep. the first time i used it i couldn’t figure out why they weren’t landing where I put the cursor.
it seemed like the most natural thing that i would place them farther along the path and pick them up as i went. then i saw they were going behind me . wtf ? lol
Like some of you guys already mentioned, HoA and Ballista seems like the only skills made for DQ synergies, especially the playstyle.