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Does Dark Quiver turn anybody else off from MM builds?

I’m curious if I’m in the minority in despising this skill and as a result any build that relies on it.

I just hate it; every second I’m chasing an arrow on the ground is a moment I’m (likely) not improving my position or (definitely not) DPS’ing; in exchange I get 1 big whammy bammy attack, but it doesn’t feel particularly effective when compared to continuing to DPS instead.

Thoughts on improving DQ: Delete it. I’m just kidding; 1)Make the whammy bammy more bammy. 2) Introduce a QoL node (please make it easy to get to), rough idea being “DQ is now a buff, lasts 9 seconds. Automatically receive a Dark Arrow every 3 seconds. Dark arrows no longer fall to the ground.”

I’ll allow maybe I just want to like the rogue but don’t (and that’s fine if lots of other people do). All of its big hitting builds seem to rely on flow and/or dark quiver, and I just hate that style of gameplay when the character is also squishy. Not so bad when you’re tanky though.

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Well it synergies insanely well with hail of arrows, since you just need to pick a single arrow every combo and then lure the monsters inside the skill aoe that last for quite a long time.

But yeah, for multiple attacks, it’s probably too clunky of a playstyle for most people.

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I also find it absolute garbage. It will get you killed in random AoE more often than not and the bonuses are… meh. Hail of Arrows and Balista are the only skills it is worth using with.

It also needs to have some support for Shuriken (or thrown attacks in general)

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Yeah you’re not wrong, I think HoA is the only case where the “bammy” doesn’t just feel underwhelming, though it’s only when you can reliably keep mobs in it (fantastic in Arena). It’s wonderful for low mobility bosses as well, but I think it could stand to be more fun in more situations than the 2 I can think of.

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Imho, Dark Quiver is a very powerful buff skill that is hard to ignore for a Marksman build…

However… I absolutely HATE using it in practise…

My reasoning is very simple & personal… I hate backtracking when I play - I want to move forward towards the map goal… DQ, unfortunately drops arrows behind you randomnly and you have to keep going back to pick up the boosts… for me this is an incredibly jarring playstyle that I am personally unable to ignore. (Note: This is not the same as kiting damage to me).

Suggestions:

  • I would like to see a node in DQ that allows it to only drop arrows ahead of you in an arc or centered on a mob so that you can tag something in the direction you wish to go.

  • Alternatively, a unique that addresses this - like a quiver or something… that drops DQ in an arc ahead of the player (direction char is moving or looking).

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I like your ideas, but have you tried using +2 arrows dropped idols. Not a perfect solution but the idea is you drop so many arrows that you can’t help but pick them up.

Assuming that DQ has a rough spread of drops equally around the player (not sure this is actually the case tho), then its about half of the arrows that drop behind you as you progress… +2 idols DO make a difference by increasing the number of drops so, as you say, you cannot help pick them up as there are statistically more in front of you.

For me personally its still not enough as from my own testing there are still instances where the arrows can end up behind you as you progress. So while its a valid suggestion that would lesson the issue for others, for me the +2 is like a band-aid solution that doesnt address the problem itself…

I understand that this is not such a problem for other players and my personal preferences might turn out to be in the minority & therefore not be considered for addition/influence into the game but hey, giving my two cents… :wink:

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Same here. I don’t like the mechanic very much. I’d like to have a mechanik so you can pick up several arrows and keep them for a much longer duration.

This way you can fire it, concentrate on picking some arrows up and then use it with consecutively attacks.

The current implementation is ok for HoA. But every other skill doesn’t really work well. Using it for DA for example is so damn tedious.

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Other than for Hail Of Arrows and CD Detonating Arrow, I think Dark Quiver really is not mandatory for any build.

This skill, is the solely reason I enjoy playing marksman, without that skill I would probably not played any marksman at all.

If you don’t like it, don’t use it, there are many other options.
Maybe this will get even better, once Rogue get’s more skills to choose from, since rogue has the least amount of skills available currently.

Skills like this are so unique and mechanically changing how you play a build, I really hope they keep it.
If you want a more straight forward build without relying on running around picking up arrows, just skip the skill.

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If we follow this rule, we might end up with a very empty game.

Personally I find it sad that there are some skills that are so niche or only one branch out of a bunch is viable.

If I were a dev I’d try to make it a really cool skill that is valued by the player base and would not be ok with the majority of people saying “it’s tedious to play”.

Many people propably already follow your suggestion and don’t play this skill.

There are many suggestions that could improve the skill. Don’t know if you think this would destroy the skill for you. But in this case people could again just say

:wink:

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This might work too… It would still mean running back to fetch arrows, but if it were like reloading a revolver and guaranteed the next X shots benefitted, then this could alleviate my aversion to running back to fetch one arrow at a time…

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I would not say that i despise that skill, but you are definitely not in the minority to find that skill awkward to play :slight_smile: Like some of you guys already mentioned, HoA and Ballista seems like the only skills made for DQ synergies, especially the playstyle.
I simply dont like this “for your next arrow” buff. It doesnt make sense for ailment builds or in general fast hitting attacks that rely on constant attacking. Walking to a black arrow reduces your dps more than picking up an arrow that buffs only your next shot.
There were quite some discussions already on the forum about dark quiver:

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I don’t think the devs deliberately design skills, to be tedious or not liekd by a big portion of the community.

But I rather have very cool unique skills, that are niche, then very generic uninspireted ksills.

Just because they are niche, doesn’t mena they are not “viable”.

The word “viable” also has a different meaning to differetn people.

Giving additional options in the skil spec tree would be ok, change the base functionality too much, I don’t know.

I rather have the devs add more completely new skills to chosoe from, if you don’t like some skills.

This is an interesting take… I would prefer that skills are matched to the general class ideal that the devs are designing around… and then have uniques/legendaries/mastery end tree passives/perhaps even “edge of skill nodes” that create Unique niche builds…

For me this then allows the majority to use any or all skills for any build and only really specialise in a niche build through proper commitment to skill nodes, finding build defining uniques or spending passives to a specific goal…

It would be interesting to know if the devs have discussed this design philosophy anywhere in the past - I would like to read what they said if anyone knows where I might find it…

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If very creative and cool “niche” nodes are only hidden inside skill spec trees and unique/set items.

The base class can very quickly become “generic” on the surface, for a new player.

If i would log into the game the first time and discover that after a few paly hours I don’t find anything that stands out and is really creative or exciting, I would probably just drop the class.

Yes there are some pretty generic skills, that can be turned to really cool ones later (like Fireball for example).

But generally all classes have a bunch of really outstanding skills, which for me Dark Quiver is. There is nothing compareable to it in other games, other than builds revoling around picking up orbs/health orb for combat buffs.

If oyu don’t like the base functionality I would prefer having a few branches inside the skill spec tree, to be able to transform that skills into something you prefer.

For example:

What about a node, that makes a Black Arrow buff the next X amount of attacks ailment applications, but doesn’t buff their base dmg?

And another node, where you cna store up to X amount of black arrows at once and then spend them in a row.

If you combine both of those nodes, but makes black arrows appropiately weaker, that could be a solution.

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Yes, we already have a mechanic like this in the game. Jade Arrows on Shift already boost a number of upcoming attacks for both ailment and hit playstyles. The amount of arrows/skillpoints you can put in there are perfectly balanced around shift’s cooldown so that you basically can keep it 100% up.

Like i said before, HoA, Ballista and the 15% kill threshold chance for Cinder Strike node doesnt need to be changed. I like the CS node because you need to time that and i like the tactical approach since 15% kill threshold is already a strong and underrated node for bossing.

But the Dark Quiver buffs for Multishot, Flurry, Puncture, Detonating Arrow and the Toxic Quiver node there needs to be a similar mechanic like Jade Arrows (for example each point invested into ‘‘Rending Shots’’ grants you a stack for MS buffs; each point invested into ‘‘Crimson Quiver’’ grants you a stack for Puncture buffs; each point invested into Toxic Quiver…etc.)

You can also work around with a ‘‘recently’’ mechanic. So picking up a black arrow grants you a buff for 4 seconds (for those nodes mentioned before). That would make DQ more versatile for many builds and skills.

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I know Dark quiver is a buff skill and meant to have something for almost all rogue/marksman skills making its tree quite big but I was thinking it would be really cool to have a node that causes enemies to pick up DQ when they go over it and it increases damage taken for a few sec/few hits. There could be a few nodes behind it also like 1 for making it apply efficacious toxins(more dot dmg), 1 for making it apply a lot of crit vulnerability/chance to get crit/more damage taken from crits, 1 for flat resist reduction, and finally 1 that makes it so it doesn’t get picked up but just applies the effects in a medium area but you can have only 1 arrow and 25% reduced effects.

Also maybe it would be cool to have a node that makes the arrows homing in on you (like spires so they don’t actually hit you) but has the arrows spread out over like 10 seconds.

Edit: Though I guess this would be better off as another skill
Also does anyone really use umbral resolution ?

Me neither. And as a result I think they care about feedback of people finding a skill tedious to play.

In context of this conversation not viable means tedious. I think most of the people got my point. There are interactions for half a dozen of skills and only 2 are viable. Because the rest isn’t worth it, tedious, unfun.

I’d rather improve the skills we already have when they are really unpopular, instead if just adding new stuff. DQ only needs some tweaks and perks to be possibly more fun.

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