IMO I think the “wall” for gear progression in this example would probably actually be around T. Also I am just curious on what the “Ultimate Goal” of these builds are, because lets be honest if the goal is to make it to wave 700 in Arena then gear might not be the issue as there are really only certain builds that can do something like that and they usually don’t require crazy gear investment. T17 or 18 items will take you through empowered monos in most builds and are honestly not that hard to obtain. As far as fake crafting success, I finally got my plus 2 to summon scorpion today and then bricked it on a 92% craft…feelsbadman
The amount of fractures I have seen above 90% this patch is bonkers. I guess it is not just me…
I had an item today fracture at 97% just trying to throw something together for a character that hasn’t completed the story yet…Maybe I should just delete him and make another he might have rolled a low luck stat /s
This is the kind of thing that turned me off really quickly. Drops aren’t allowed to be exciting, because then you wouldn’t need to craft. Craft is designed in a way that naturally feels bad (even if not intentionally designed to). The only appeal left are the passive and skill trees, but that’s not enough when itemization feels this bad.
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Alright, well Mike has mentioned that even 99% is not guaranteed, because I failed one. I have done these same very things. The point is not to use bases that cannot be replaced. Slap together a T8-T10 item on anything in the campaign is sufficient.
I think there can be a middle ground somewhere. It doesn’t have to be skewed completely one way or another. Right now you’re able to add stats and upgrade them. The random aspect is rune of removal and success rates. Fractures are there to tamp down progress. Instead, make it so adding stats is more random. Not completely random but random enough that you can’t pick and choose. Upgrading tiers could be a one time roll. You get anything between tier 1 to tier 5 and that’s the end of it. Perhaps some rare material that gives you a chance to roll for t6 and t7. Maybe another rare material that lets you roll again once more.
There’s multiple ways to go about this. I think most can agree we want a system that is not frustrating and also doesn’t give you everything you want since that would defeat the purpose of the game. There’s a balance to be struck and right now it feels like LE is taking the worst of both worlds if that’s even possible - the feeling you can make whatever you want but still feel frustrated.
I think this would make things feel worse. The best idea I’ve heard so far is to remove fracturing, make “nothing happens” as one of the fail results, and slightly up the chance of the other fail conditions. This means you can keep trying if you want, but you always add more instability until you’re just really likely to lose affix tiers by pushing it too far. It lets players decide their own risk tolerance instead of the fracture cutting them short.
Removing fracturing goes against the physical science of what forging is all about.
To quote my earlier post:
Basically gated behind finding affix shards? Then you run into powerful affixes that drop often being an issue. What stops someone from finding a base item and slamming it in perpetuity until they get the stats they want? Half the job is done if you find an exalted base item. Unless instability is permanent then yeah I can see it working. But I still hate being able to determine the exact stats on items. You also have to look at things holistically. Certain stats only need to meet a minimum threshold while others scale. Keep certain stats at a lower tier and save instability gamble on scaling stats. Resistances for example you just need to hit the max and it’s done. You may have resistances completed and just need a tad more so you keep it at a low tier for an item and focus entirely on slamming for other stats that scale.
I don’t understand people not liking randomness. Randomness is the very essence of ARPGs. People can accept random drops but can’t accept rolling the dice on crafting? There has to be an end to the crafting process at a certain point.
I care more about the integrity of the game’s mechanics than I do any vague ‘realism.’
I don’t think this will change. It might be better to think about options that take this into account.
We already have this in PoE and most players hate it. RNG is good in some ways in some place and bad in other ways in other places. It’s not a strict disgust/dislike that people have for RNG as a concept.
It’s not like we make the decisions. I’m fine with just voicing my take on this and move on. Most likely I’ll stick around and enjoy the game as long as crafting improves in one form or another. Game is solid and fun to play.
And I’m not sold on people hating RNG in ARPGs. It’s always been that way in the genre that we play. Sure things can change, but then you’re targeting a different audience. What I personally don’t like/hate is excessive RNG or RNG layered on top of each other. On the other end if I could get what I want/need based on completing objectives or content I’d go back to playing MMORPGs.
Either keep deterministic crafting with a different penalty or randomize it to a certain range. That’s the debate and either works fine although I’m not a fan of the former.
I just thought I’d add my two cents on this subject.
- We have to at this point, agree that unless you’ve got valid proof of this system not working, then it’s most likely just a psychological effect from the “negative outcomes”.
- Personally, I like this system, even though it feels like utter hot garbage when I break a really good item.
- I feel it should be noted, that this system is healthy in terms of protecting the longevity of the game.
- For example, if I was able to deck out my character in full Uniques/Sets/T20 items before I even reached 100, I’d just get bored and probably reroll soon after.
- I am a streamer as well, so I generally want to push a character to its absolute limits (prior to Min-Max phase, unless I’m super in love with the build). This keeps me going and giving me something to do for the build.
- Regardless of systems in other games, I feel it should be noted, that Last Epoch is its OWN ENTITY at the end of the day. They want a Deterministic Style Crafting System, so requesting more randomized crafting I think is the opposite of the direction they want to go.
- To this extent, I feel Fracturing is a necessary evil. If EHG removed Fracturing and made it so you risk losing modifiers, tiers, etc on an item, that doesn’t stop a player from just continuing to bash shards at the item(s) they want to craft, until it is/they are eventually fully crafted.
Possible ways I could see beneficial changes to this system are as follows:
- Remove Instability for anything with less than a total of 9 Tiers, and a character level requirement of Level 55 or lower. When an item is upgraded to a total of 9 Tiers, it starts gaining Instability. Anything level 56 or higher, would utilize the current Crafting System.
This would benefit the campaign/early leveling structure immensely. As well as prevents abuse on higher level gear bases.
- Remove Instability from Rune of Removal.
I feel this negative effect is unnecessary, as generally when using this, you’re already risking something going wrong.
For example: Removal of a T6+ Modifier. / Removal of a Rare Modifier (+X to Skill).
- Remove Instability from Rune of Refinement.
This again boils down to the same exact reasoning I have for the change in Rune of Removal, just not necessary, especially when you consider that items this is used on are generally already at a fair amount of Instability.
The only abuse I could see for this, is people using it on an item with just a T6-7 Modifier, or Rare Modifier. Which, I feel isn’t enough to not warrant this change.
- I don’t necessarily feel that Rune of Cleansing should even be part of the Crafting System.
This is specifically because you can just work around not worrying about utilizing this by just buying a clean base from the Blacksmith Vendor(s).
Conclusion:
Overall, I am currently enjoying the Crafting System as is, even if I feel that it could be better than it is in its current state. Hopefully people understand my line of thinking on a lot of this, as I’ve tried to explain each bit I wrote to the best of my ability. However, if anyone has questions on anything, please don’t hesitate to speak out, I will gladly go into further detail.
Keep up the fantastic work EHG, and I look forward to the release of more content, character/skill/gear balances, and more.
Llama and Albino - I’d love to hear your feedback on this take. As you two generally seem to have a fair and constructive way of responding to things on the forum so far.
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There are other options. There’s no need to be so absolute or binary about it.
It is binary though. Something is either deterministic or it’s not. If it is, penalties need to be introduced or something to slow progress. You can either slap that fire resistance specifically or you can’t.
If you take a look at what I suggested, I think you might like some of the ideas I proposed, I answer a lot of what you argued with my own personal arguments as well.
Did you even read the suggestion I described? Instability is the penalty, and if you push it too hard, losing affix tiers becomes a more and more likely one. It doesn’t have to be fracturing, and I think many players dislike fracturing as a concept.
I added my opinion on Fracturing to the post I wrote above. Sorry about the lengthiness, but I wanted to ensure that everything I wrote had as much reasoning/explanation as possible.
And I also addressed that. All stats are not equal. Instability in and of itself becomes a value that you can assign. Scaling stats will always be prioritized. Choose two important stats, max em out, and add non-scaling stats and push it as far as you can then stop. And if you do reach an instability point you KNOW is no good then the item is as good as fractured (maybe not damaged, but what’s the difference?) Same ending, different coating.
I’m not sure they’re wed to deterministic crafting. If they said so then I probably missed it. Not a fan of fractures, but to each their own. At the very least I know the current system doesn’t feel right and they did confirm they’re probably going to rework it.
I continue to follow this thread. But I tread lightly even if I have read it all.
Like watching tectonic plates at work.
No worry if the sky falls when the ground is so shaky. -ancient little chicken saying
The difference is important.