Auction House should be for all

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21

How do you know?
From where are you getting that data?
Has it been tested?
Do you have a detailed setup already at hand?

No?

Well… then you can hardly know.

Sure there’s some ways to balance it all in regards to what you’re suggesting. But once more… it goes against the design philosophy EHG has for the implementation of both factions and hence is not even a discussion point currently. It’ll be if the issues seen with the faction system in total are persistent rather then fixed though, then it warrants fundamental changes, with how new the systems are though that is not the case yet, simple as that.

Not to speak that EHG is really bad in terms of balancing such stuff… so getting that right is dream castle, a unicorn, a thing which needs all the stars to align just right and is so unlikely it won’t be seen.

Ok… so what’s the reason CoF needs the gold?
Lightless Harbor and… yeah… that’s it.
So what would a CoF player have from it besides access to the market? Nothing.

So a CoF player has solely upsides and MG solely downsides with this implementation.
Getting 10% of a 100 mil item which can be fairly regularly found through CoF but nigh never through MG is still 10 mil, which is a massive amount overall.

Also you’re not taking into consideration how the market hence shifts. If CoF items get onto the market that means MG people are pushed out of it since there’s nothing they can put into it. Their progress depends on gold though unlike CoF’s progression, hence they’re solely loosing out.

How do you expect to address that?

That’s factually wrong.

A market lives by supply versus demand.

If supply outpaces demand then value drops.
If demand outpaces supply then value rises.

If supply is too high then prices overall drop, which means you get 2 possible options: extremely strong items are unachievable since you can’t acquire currency to fund them as nothing has value below them. The other is that everything in total is nothing worth which makes the usage of the market for sales non-viable in the first place.

So no, that’s not how a market works.
Abundance is baaaaad for a market, which is why capitalism is so prone to corruption through artificial scarcity. Hence making your own problems to profit off of them.

First of all… we wouldn’t know either way, we have no way to price check and the MG UI update is still not here. So all those arguments are useless. Obviously MG is a shit-show if the UI is a shit-show. It’s broken, non-functional, a mess, a disaster, a shoddy work, a failed implementation currently, a lackluster integration… you get the gist I hope.

Solution? Fix the broken stuff, see if it recovers and find out actual issues derived directly from the framework and fix those.
Your solution is no solution but tacking more crap onto a already utterly broken system.

Also factually wrong.

Every item dropped during alignment with CoF has the ‘non tradable’ tag, faction tagged or not.

So it is the ‘no trade whatsoever’ faction. The only exception is direct exchange through group-play and that in itself is also a mess in design because of the faction tagging, leading to more issues then less.

Also not true, it depends on the progress state.

MG is superior early on, which is an issue since MG has access to empowered timeline boss gear without LP… which is a mess. Shouldn’t happen, needs to be fixed.

Then we have the stage where you get general gear, CoF is vastly superior there since you simply drop so more high quality loot.

Then it comes to the area where you try to get specific LP uniques to upgrade your character… which is 50/50 split. ‘Common’ unique items are easier to acquire from CoF since you won’t have the required rank in MG early enough. Those above are easier to acquire through MG, then it shifts again to CoF since the ones are expensive and hard to get and rarely listed… and absolute top-end is only possible through CoF reliably currently as you’ll not see them in MG at all most of the time unless you start early.

So it’s not even a statement which is upheld. Which items? When in the progression line? MG itself is a mess, CoF is fine.

I’m sure it’s not healthy, time has proven it over and over again that a completely finished character will cause people to stop playing as all’s achieved. After a timeframe of enjoying the fruits of your labor. For pure retention sake nigh impossible achievements in itemization are healthy for longevity.

22

I’m not going to reply to all this but as far as you claiming that COF is superior at any point is just plain wrong. I went through and checked the top 50 on the arena ladder - the top 15 on the ladder are all MG. Only 9 out of 50 are COF.

It’s just a numbers game, having 100% of drops have potential of use to you by way of trading those items for the exact items you want as opposed to COF players getting 400% more loot but maybe less than 10% of that is of any use to the player.

MG players will eventually always get to the item they want by nickel and diming their way to having enough whereas COF players may never see the item they need without luck.

You are also wrong about not being able to trade anything after joining COF. I have many items that do not have the “cannot trade” tag on them and are indeed tradeable. My COF had no part in the stats on that item and that’s why they are tradeable

23

That is because, as he explained, for endgame gear MG is better. And since leaderboards are about players that push the content limits and are thus using endgame gear, MG is better.
It’s for the previous phase where you’re gearing mid-game that CoF is better.

Exactly. Which is why mid-game gearing is easier in CoF, because it’s a number’s games and you’re usually not investing money into that in MG. You usually spend your money for early leveling stuff (twink gear) or for endgame gear.

It’s not that MG can’t get mid-gear as well. It’s that it’s not worth spending your gold on it.

24

I would argue MG is superior at every single stage of the game. Early mid and late. The numbers game doesn’t change early or late. you’re still getting more drops that are useful to you by via trade at every stage of the game

25

You have mid-gear available in the AH. It’s just not worth spending gold on it.
In fact, if it’s your first character, CoF is better all the way until you can finally buy endgame gear: you can only access the AH at act 9, when you’re almost done with the campaign. And you can only buy exalted gear when you’re about done with regular monos.
So for your first character, CoF is always superior in getting gear all the way to the end of regular monos.

MG only starts being superior once you can buy all LP uniques, which is way into empowered monos, or when you’re making a second character.
And for your second character, you buy twink gear for early leveling and you buy endgame gear, and in this MG is clearly superior.
But you don’t buy mid-game gear because mid-game doesn’t offer a challenge and it’s a waste of favour and gold to do it. So in this stage, CoF is also superior, since it has better natural drops for you to upgrade your mid-game gear.

26

Well, EHG already has a solution for this in place, because they want to add tags/filters, so then you can look up who is the best COF player specifically. This is a much easier solution than to start a battle you cannot win, namely to balance Cof and MG

27

Mike has said on his stream that they would like to balance both factions to be somewhat similar but he knows they will never be the same. And they don’t want to make changes that will take the fun out of them. That is, making CoF changes so that CoF is closer to MG but in a way that players won’t have as much fun with it (like allowing CoF to trade).
So CoF will never be balanced with MG. It will be balanced around the gameplay it provides in a way that is fun for the players (though that is always subjective).

1 Like
28

At least read and comprehend before replying though. You answered with something I haven’t written, actually specifically the opposite of what you claim I’ve done, which is saying that CoF and MG have inferior and superior situations and some of them need to be remedied.

Which in itself doesn’t hold true either.
If a listing is ‘0’ gold and has the same stats as yours… yours is worthless until the ‘0’ gold listing is gone.
Even if it goes up to 1k… or even 5k gold it stays the same. Those values are not worthwhile to engage in the mechanic as you can farm that amount during the same time as the interaction needs.

So by design your reward needs to be above the 5k mark to even become viable, before that it’s simply a waste of time.

So all listing 5k and below are essentially ‘no value’ as a seller. Faulty listings one could call em.

Also factually wrong.

If there is no listing you can have as much gold as you want.

A 4 LP red ring will likely never be shown in MG, acquisition of one is nigh impossible as MG as well, vastly more likely to get one as CoF.

If MG gets 1 valuable items hence CoF gets 4 in the same time.
Simple as that.

For your build? Likely not.
For a build? Yes.
Make that build hence and you immediately get use out of it. With this mentality CoF actually becomes vastly superior to MG.

You have acquired them before joining CoF then, which is the point.
Items acquired during CoF won’t be tradeable.
If they are then make a bug report, because that’s a bug.

Which is factually wrong.
As a first character (we’re not talking second character since it removes the whole progression aspect which is important to mention) you won’t be happy with MG at all. No access to gear, no gear dropping, you can outfit yourself with basic rare items and non-lp uniques.
That’s a ‘starter build’ hence. Functions, is decent, gets you through the game.

Mid-game when you progress through normal monoliths you’ll likely not get a single exalted item which is of use to you, CoF will. Also you won’t be able to buy and craft something superior to a 4 T5 rare with a high chance (yes yes… there’s exceptions, but to every general comment there’s exceptions, those are to be ignored for a reason when talking about something general) since you’re missing the gold to do so likely.
Then in end-game (empowered monolith progression) you’ll gradually acquire access to the baseline items you already should’ve been able to buy much earlier, which brings us to the items which are ‘high-end’ items but not ‘uber-items’ yet. Those are roughly in line with CoF, you have so… soooo much time already to acquire one of those through CoF that by the time you’ll have the gold it’s quite close who acquires it actually first.
And with uber items? Well, those are definitely better in MG, but they also need a boatload of effort. And importantly the longer a cycle goes the less chance to acquire them will be possible since the current state of the market is that supply drops off rather swiftly while demand starts to outpace those items. Naturally as less new players come in and more players need to higher equipment.

That all leads to the answer: ‘It depends which faction is better at the stage of the cycle, the stage of your account and the type of player you are’.

29

you are straight up wrong on your math on MG vs COF. every player in MG is essentially sharing their drops with every single other MG player. getting a 4LP item in MG takes much less time and effort than getting a 4LP in COF. The odds of a 4LP dropping on your screen is obviously much higher but an MG player has thousands of other players dropping thousands of that item, rolling the odds thousands of times. MUCH much higher odds of seeing a 4LP that is within your grasp in MG.

The math is severely in your favor in MG, hence all the top MG players are more geared than the top COF players

30

His point was simply that a 4LP red ring is soooo soooo soooo rare, that even with the thousands of people in MG you’ll probably get a couple in a cycle, at most. And those are more likely to keep it than to sell it. And even when they do sell it, they will sell it for a huge amount of gold (most likely the 1.5B limit) and will be sniped by one of the hardcore racers pretty fast.

So you are more likely to get a 4LP red ring in CoF than in MG.

EDIT: Which is to say, not likely at all, but slightly better odds with CoF.

31

I specifically have a lower chance to get that 4LP ring, a much MUCH lower chance. The odds I find that ring are lower than the odds I accumulate enough gold to buy the ring from one of the other thousands of players whove killed thousands of times more monsters than I have. If the math was in COF’s favor why are all the most geared players MG?

32

Because as you say, MG allows you to outsource the dropping of the items you want to any of the thousands of players. But as DJ says (probably, can’t be arsed to go check), MG is better for endgame/BiS item acquisition because it’s not RNG-based like CoF is. If the item is for sale on the MG, you can buy it.

33

For most things, for example a 2LP red ring, MG is better. Which is why you usually see the most geared players with a 2 or 3LP (much more rarely) red ring. Or a 4LP frostbite.

For the really really really rare stuff like a 4LP red ring, CoF is better simply because the odds are so low that even with thousands of players farming this will almost never drop.

Like I said, in a cycle you’ll get just a very few 4LP red rings dropped among all the thousands of players in MG. If you even get any at all.
And if an MG player does happen to luck out and drop one, it’s very likely that they won’t sell it but use it themselves.
Or if they do sell it, they’ll sell for 1.5B and only one other person in MG will get the ring. It might be you, but the odds are very much against that. It’s more likely that it will be a streamer that plays 10h a day.

Whereas if you do luck out on one in CoF (still very low odds but better than in MG) you then have it.

So endgame gear is better in MG, which no one disputes. But the really really really rare BiS gear, the ones that are so rare that even thousands of players probably won’t drop any, then CoF is slightly better.

Just to put it in perspective:
You can expect, on average, to get a red ring every 1000 unique rings that drop. That is no big challenge for MG.
However, the chance of 3LP is 0.00012%. Which means the chance of getting a 3LP drop is about 0.00000012%. Which means that you would need 10 million ring drops in-game, on average, to get one.
That is already a big challenge for MG, but still feasible.
However, the chance for 4LP is 3e-10%, or 0.0000000003%. So getting a 4LP drop is a chance of 0.0000000000003%. This means that you would need 3 trillion rings drops, on average, to get one.

So even if you get 1 million people playing in a cycle, you would still need 3 million ring drops PER PERSON.

So, the conclusion is that MG AH will most likely never ever see a 4LP red ring. Neither will a CoF player, but the odds are slightly better for them.

34

yes, the odds are extremely low for both. but the odds I find that 4LP ring on the auction house are MUCH higher than the odds I personally see that ring drop on my screen. as llama said, MG players are outsourcing their odds to the thousands of other players farming for hundreds of thousands of hours.

a single COF player would need over 10,000% magic find to come close to MG’s odds. so no, COF does not have better odds for the ultra rare items

35

They aren’t, though. You won’t see one in AH at all. In fact, I’d be very surprised if anyone EVER drops a 4LP red ring at the current drop rates.
But if they do drop it, the most likely scenario is keeping it, not selling it. So you still won’t see it in AH.
And even if they do sell one, the odds are that a streamer or someone that no-lifes the game will snipe it before you even see it listed.

So even in MG, your best odds of ever seeing a 4LP red ring is to have it drop. And CoF drops are much higher. Even though I would also be very surprised if anyone in CoF EVER drops a 4LP red ring with the current drop rates.

The thing is that we’re not talking about something that is very rare. We’re talking about something that is nearly impossible to drop. And for stuff that is nearly impossible to drop, you have (very) slightly better odds with CoF.
Meaning that instead of having someone drop one once in a millenium (the current odds are actually lower than that), you have the odds of dropping one once in a century (again, actually lower).

This is all a moot point anyway, since it’s not a realistic drop for either and neither will ever see one. The only relevant discussion would be achievable endgame gear. So a 1LP or maybe even a 2LP red ring is much easier to get with MG.

36

it’s really not better to drop with COF, i dont know how to explain it any better. a single COF player will not have better odds than thousands of MG players. youre comparing ALL COF players to ALL MG players. you cant compare all to all, you can only compare 1 COF player to 10k+ MG players because a COF player only has their own odds.

37

You still miss the point. If someone in MG does happen to drop it, they won’t sell it. They’ll use it. So you’ll effectively see 0 of them. Or if they do sell it, someone that plays a lot more than you do will likely snipe it. And only 1 person out of the thousands of players in MG will get it. So you’ll effectively see 0 of them.
You can even have a million people playing in MG and you still won’t see one.

So if you don’t actually have a chance of seeing it in the AH, the only relevant odds are if it drops for you. And there CoF has better odds.

38

I’ll effectively see 0 of them as COF as well, it’s still higher for MG.

I played 200 hours of corruption 800+ last season and saw 1 with 0 LP last season. Ive played 150 hours of 400+ this season and I have seen exactly 0 so far. I ask, how many are on the auction house right now?

39

It seems you don’t want to understand. So after this last try I’m done.
The chances of a 4LP red ring EVER dropping are so low that it’s not reasonable to expect it will ever happen unless EHG chances drop rates.

So the most likely scenario is that NO ONE will EVER see one (unless you edit your file in offline).

The odds of someone dropping it are much higher for MG. So the most likely scenario is that someone from MG would drop it, if it was realistically possible.
However, that person WILL NOT BE YOU. The odds of it being you are way smaller than it being a CoF player.

And if someone does ever drop it THEY WON’T SELL IT. So you’ll never see it anyway. Or if they do, they will sell for 1.5B and will be immediately sniped by a no-lifer. So you’ll never see it anyway.

So your only realistically possible chance (within the unrealistic realm of it ever dropping in the first place) IS IF IT DROPS FOR YOU.
So if the ONLY REALISTICALLY POSSIBLE CHANCE that you will ever see a 4LP red ring is for it to drop for you, you actually have a slightly better chance of getting one as CoF.

Now, this is the difference between infinite - 1 and inifinite -2. In practice it makes no difference because you’ll never see one.

40

you are making many assumptions for the couple MG players that get it to drop for them. the odds they sell it arent any lower than the odds they would personally use it