This is like a chicken egg situation I guess, because how I would build certain build is drasttically different with or without a specific item. ven if its just the defense, the other items and stat prioritization will be vastly different with Items like Wall of Nothing.
Now you can argue if that is a entirely different build or not and its not objectively decidable
You will drastically change the stat priority and what you can and can’t do with a Flayer’s Pride. Some varation of Marrow Shard is impossible without Flayer’s Pride.
Sacrifical Embrace is not an item you slap on any build and it works. You literally need to build around it, because direct casts consume the stacks, so you need to have ways of getting stacks without consuming them and use very deliberate casts to make use of the stacks. That is the pinnacle of build defining, because it changes you skills, skill tree choices and skill rotation.
But you don’t slap Wall of Nothing on any Maelstrom Build, you will change your other items and stat priorities around because of that item and the build will transform significantly.
Wall of Nothing even gives a very unique and distinct gamepaly and visual feedback to your build, because you have some “ramp” up defense which looks very statisfying to watch at.
Ok, that’s fair. But doesn’t that actually go against your argument in this thread? Because with that definition, you can definitely include Immortal Vise in that category.
You might even argue about Shattered Worlds, due to the perma-haste, since you can have lots of bonuses happen while hasted and you can build around that.
In fact, with that definition, isn’t pretty much any unique considered build defining (with a few exceptions)?
It has to actually be achievable to grant a sense of aspiration.
Again, the challenge needs to be actually obtainable. The issue is that while Id agree that abberoth is a fight designed in a way that does reward skill, ubberoth removes half of that because you are hard factored around essentially a timer, and if you cant beat that timer or otherwise simply outstat the failure of the timer(Aka tons of healing and cleanse).
The issue is that “Arpgs” dont really promote skill, they promote build understanding which is something you can google. if you are copying one of the 10 second kills you dont really need to worry about the mechanics.
The worse your build, the more skill you need. But skill is id argue only about 30% of the puzzle. if your build isnt borderline broken, you cant outskill the fight.
If the answer to beating the puzzle is “Reroll to a new build that is actually able to complete this task” then the challenge has failed horribly.
With defensive setups it is definitely a bit more tricky, but no I don’t think so.
Immortal Vise a) has an inferior alternative for the defensive component (Grasp of the Blood Mage) and b) you don’t change the rest of your defensive stats around massively. Maybe you would take Endurance Threshold on a Belt instead of Health, but that is only 1 affix, maybe a couple passives change.
With Wall of Nothing you can go from a regular health build to a ward build in a way that isn’t possbile without it.
For Shattered Worlds I don’t see this at all. It doesn’t give you any unique stats at all. Just stats that are very powerful and are hard to get from other sources.
Yes, when you use Shattered Worlds it might affect some of your other item slots and stat priorities and certain stat thresholds (like crit chance), but it doesn’t fundamentally change how you build the build.
Immortal Vise is the BiS defensive glove for endurance builds.
Shattered Worlds is the BiS amulet for nearly every build in the game, a few exceptions apply.
So nope. The Blood Mage gloves are vastly weaker version of Immortal Vise since it reduces follow-up damage by 30% flat (since you’ll likely be below endurance threshold then). Not to speak of Blood Mage being focused on a caster and Immortal Vise on melee. Not to speak of flat Health in-built and Strength as well which improves armor and hence gives extra damage reduction as well.
Saying it’s not a ‘BiS item’ is nonsensical. It’s directly designed to be and also upholds that role well.
Shattered World’s haste is absolutely useless comparatively to ‘10% less damage’ as the implicit. Which is the primary power of it defensive wise. Permanent haste is just the cherry on top since it provides ridiculous amounts of mobility incomparable to nearly everything else in the game.
The whole row of argumentation is utterly backwards designed.
I get what you wanna say… they’re chase items to be earned, they’re there to make your build more powerful and stomp content after acquiring it… but saying they’re not BiS is just factually wrong.
It absolutely is. For 2 reasons: The first being that a vast amount of builds is utterly ill-suited for the fight, which is not something that should be allowed in that magnitude. Having ‘some’ build variances struggle with him even with top-end equipment and high personal skill level is fine… the sheer amount? Not fine.
The second is that the fight itself is a mess and the enforced skill-level of the player hence is extremely high. It’s a boss-fight which is harder then most uber-bosses in Path of Exile comparatively… a game which is known for providing content for ‘sweatlords’ a lot. Seeing this type of content which specifically is not supposed to be designed this way is baffling.
100% agreed with this.
Whoever at EHG thought this would be a good thing to do needs to re-evaluate their game-design basics… severely so.
Oh, that’s actually doable… but only if your game is oversaturated with content already… and that’s something which I think nobody can say about LE.
‘Just’ defence? The most sought after stats in the game are the ‘just’ part?
People play with really wonky offensive stats at times in favor of defense because that’s the bottleneck of builds generally. It makes the difference between one-shot and snoozing away while walking blind through content.
Yeah, that’s fair, but then we get back to what level of player skill and/or build is the fight designed to be aspirational for? Some people see Lagon as aspirational after all. The devs have said that they’ve pegged Uberroth at the top end for a very small percentage of players who can kill Abberoth & I don’t think that’s unreasonable.
That I would agree with, but that’s a build balance issue.
I don’t think it has though. Given 3 people have beaten him on Bladedancers clearly player skill is, or can be involved. Just because most choose to brute force it on a build that has the dps to ignore most mechanics says more about balance and most players unwillingness to step up to that challenge if they don’t have to. Which I get.
And if it’s as not out of reach as you say, why hasn’t the majority of the community “just googled” a build capable of killing him in a few seconds?
Because even if you have the most OP “does Uberroth in 0.3 seconds” build guide, you still have to farm all the items and assemble the build, which takes time.
I’ve started a Time Rot Void Knight as my 3rd or so build with the intention of beating Uberroth, but when I reached empowered monos I lost steam and just wanted to play something else. Not that the build wasn’t fun, it’s just hard to grind for hours with the same build. I’m the kind of person that creates a new character for each build I want to play even if they are the same mastery/Class.
You create aspirational content at that level solely when you got content handled for everything below.
Like a house… you don’t start building the 10th floor when only floor 1-4 are done… kinda nonsensical.
In theory a great addition, in reality a dumb decision.
How many individual players does LE has? 300k? 400k? Something in that range I imagine? With those playing into empowered content… 30-50k individual players maybe?
From those 3 people actually killed him with Bladedancer… yeah… says enough.
Either Bladedancer feels not good enough to play inside the Echo content to even reach Uberroth or the skill basis is so high that it’s nonsensical to say ‘but people manage it anyway!’.
In every area there’s the so called ‘Magicians’ of it. People which are so high up in skill that what even a well experienced player barely manages is for them not even slightly taxing. Hence those minimum number examples are always solely a display of potential ability and at best a showcase of how gear is able to handle specific content offensively.
And that’s the core issue of LE currently, the way which grinding is done.
After reaching empowered there is nothing new. Everything has already been experienced. The only major new thing is exalted items… so you’re running through content already experienced, without variance at all (Since we got… Echos… that’s it) and EHG expects people to stay engaged until reaching power levels to beat Uberroth.
It’s nonsense. Obviously it doesn’t work well, they can change 200 things and it wouldn’t work well anyway.
Variety of content is and always has been key to engagement time.
MMO’s have dungeons, quests, events, pure farming of enemies, minigames and so on… variety. And we’re not even starting to speak about life-skill… because they wouldn’t well fit in a Hack&Slash game. The other mentioned ones do though.
Heck… even a overly simplistic game like ‘Dwarven Realms’ realizes that you need a bit more then simply the core content and a few bosses… even there we got a bit of content which is positioned at end-game and does different stuff then the core experience. Even a small bulletstorm-hell type content.
It can’t be that hard for EHG to finally get it into their skull to provide variety along the road. Basically anything works there… just give the player a viable option to do something else then running Echos. Meaning it provides something there and only there which can’t be provided better in Echos… outside of the uniques from dungeon bosses or the slamming for crafts.
Weaver content could’ve been it but they decided to slap it into the Echos rather then making it a side-mechanic explicitly detached from the Echos.
It could be, Mike never specified. But the table shown only has “kills”. Not “players that killed Uby”. So I’m guessing it’s just a death counter for Uby and it’s not counting distinct players.
If you plan on fighting Uber Aberroth.
Judgement Paladin in Maxroll has Orian’s Eye as a BiS Amulet when all it’s affixes apply to is Uber Aberroth or at least that’s what you care about the most.
Void Damage Received Converted To Fire + Less Fire Damage Taken Percentage + Less Damage Over Time Taken + 150 Mana. That thing screams “PICK ME FOR UBER”
So if that build wasn’t made for Uber farm I’m pretty sure it would be an exalted amulet with 2+ T7 Affixes which suits the current build needs or an easier-to-farm Unique Amulet with 2+ LP in order to slam some useful affixes on it.
Same thing applies to UB Falconer where the maxroll build had 2 red rings and i managed to kill uber in a minute and farm him effectively wearing 2 Hollow Fingers at 2LP. That made me think that Red Rings even though they’re useful with their stats, they’re not BiS even if they’re in Maxroll Build + half of my items were way different yet more efficient.You can check it now through lastepochtools.
The reason you’ll see a Shattered Worlds in that build is because I was checking if it was working as well as it was working with the previous relic. (Exalted One) and after the dive bomb rework i was disappointed and left it to rot.
Immortal Vise and Shattered Worlds are not BiS. The game gives you an option.
If you plan on taking down Uber you plan to take those items. If you don’t plan on taking Uber for a walk it’s fine because you already have the BiS. I don’t think you would pick Shattered Worlds or Immortal Vise for your build over the relic or gloves your build needed TO TAKE DOWN UBER at 3-4LP and ready to slam some T6-T7 affixes. It’s not WoW where you need 24 more people and a Heroic/Mythic difficulty to get your BiS from a boss. Best In Slot are considered the items you need for your class which renders your build a farmer(For whatever you want to farm) at max possible efficiency. These items(BiS) cannot be dropped by a boss that needs your BiS equipped in order to farm it effectively.
Maxroll builds have the BiS in endgame variants FOR THE SPECIFIC BUILD w/Passive Points Allocation and Skill upgrades.
Aspirational builds are there to show you a whole DIFFERENT potential of the build you’re following.
If you want more tankiness and more speed but (for example) less attack speed or less damage or whatever, that’s how you can make it.
I don’t care what maxroll says, I’m talking about BiS.
Obviously Maxroll (since they have a brain related to providing builds, unlike some other sites) provides a build without Uberroth items… to kill Uberroth. That doesn’t make it the ‘universal BiS’ item, it makes it BiS for that specific fight.
Why? Because it double-dips into defenses for his fight specifically. For example Aberroth uses a Void beam which counts as a DoT damage, since Orian’s Eye has implicit DoT reduction + Void damage taken as Fire Damage with up to 15% less fire damage taken it means you get a double-reduction (multiplicative) there.
Same with the void burn after his slam, Void + DoT.
Same with the Void Orb. He also has a cold and fire Orb at the same time, which means the primary focus of avoidance leans towards the cold orb as the others do a boatload less damage comparatively. You still avoid em since it creates Void puddled (also Void + DoT) which reduce the overall area you can reliably fight in.
The focus for the argument of calling something a ‘BiS’ item is towards general gameplay, not specific content… unless specifically stated. ‘For xyz fight xyz item is BiS’, which yes, for that fight it is, agreed.
That’s because Maxroll bases their builds on players with mediocre skills generally, meaning more defensive focused builds which might not have as high offenses as one might commonly go with. The build creators which work together with Maxroll showcase generally a similar thought process.
It’s very good to provide fitting results for as many people as possible since defenses cause someone to at least stay in the fight and learn it hence. For a experienced player knowing his movements you obviously use more offensive based items to reduce the time of the fight… which also leads to fewer chances for Uberroth to stomp you into the ground.
If you run Echos then those 2 items are BiS, which is 99% of the gameplay time.
Well we dont know if the stats include multiplayer. And if they do… there is builds doing 4 player ubberoth carries… so potentially the bladedancers just were in a group. But yeah hard to say. iirc no one has yet seen a BD kill. Meaning it could be groups or some strange build that is actually able to do it likely through some bugged interaction that people are keeping quiet.
