Weak: yes as I am poor. I am intelligent-but you need the other in large quantities
There is value in it. Me teaching you all is public service which I take pleasure in. I like to teach- in my own way.
No they are there because people are not capable of being intellectual enough to not vote them in. A large portion of voters pick who they vote by emotion- not the policy that they do or their campaigns.
Most employers for this reason don’t fire incompetent people- they are not competent enough to recognize incompetence. Why most ceos are never fired- just look at Concord as an example.
Humans are simple animals that like pleasure and avoid pain. Nothing else to know.
Nah games have been making record profits same as all corporations- and they all been making worse products then they ever made. Why movies such as Marvel did well for 10 years despite making garbage
I know you usually come off as bitter and disenfrachised, but lately you’ve been coming across as just one step away from writing a manifest and showing up on the news the next day.
I do hope you get some good experiences your way to unskew your very unhealthy way of looking at life. I mean it. It seems you’ve had a rough life so far, but you’re letting it affect you too much and are making broad statements that are appaling and usually used by people to justify doing very bad things.
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Well, with all respect… you can kindly piss off with that. It’s beyond arrogant and conceived. Nobody needs that. Make yourself a little cult or something but spare people here this.
Also as for intelligence… classic intelligence is a measure of learning speed and of pattern recognition, something which you’re not visibly excelling at given the posts you’ve provided over the course of time. Hence that either makes me believe you’re very - very - poor in verbal aspects or you’re vastly overconfident in your abilities. Either/Or… it doesn’t much matter as you can’t convey it to others, which makes any sort of ‘teaching’ from your side nonsensical, leave it to people actually having some semblance of knowledge in that regard, you’re one of the worst fitting ones definitely for it.
That’s a factually wrong statement. This is not the main reason as to why it happens. The main reasons for this situation have been scientifically investigated over the last 3 decades by now, with slightly shifting results because of the passage of time and hence proclivity of the behavior of superiors. Your reasoning it not in the uppermost categories, not even remotely.
Don’t put a general notion (games) in the position of a singular instance (Last Epoch or any other individual game). This is a rookie mistake. You’re very intelligent by your own words. Nonetheless you generalize, which goes counter to that argument. Simplifying situations is a prime sign of a lack of understanding intricate details in the majority of cases (exceptions apply, but given your notion is factually wrong again as the whole gaming segment is struggling compared to pre-Covid times this argument doesn’t hold remotely true).
More like ‘one step after’ 
With outcomes that are also lose-lose rather then at least egoistically driven or win-win. Yeah, it’s a self-destructive positioning there without argument as the whole basis is faulty and both short-term and long-term detrimental.
Thats fair, your all adults. Still providing you all my perspective, its fine to not agree with it. I was trying to link it back to why LE devs should be making decisions in a confident manner, but i see that train left the station.
I suppose i can come across harsh, but my goal is noble and to help. Improving the game and people requires me being direct.
Lets not open that can of worms, we both know how easy it is to lie with statistics and research. Short answer is the research is wrong.
I can generalize because its been the case. Out of the large publishers
(blizzard, EA, Ubisoft [pre outlaws], DnD, Supercell etc) have been making more profit then in their history- making bad games but still sell well.
Outside of gaming, you can see corporate America’s profit has increased by a factor of 3.5X over past 20 years. I dont need to explain the low quality of modern goods due to planned obsolescence. And the attack on right to repair so that you are forced to replace bad quality over fixing.
I do not need to really provide proof, as its obvious. But when was the last time we got a complete game on launch lol. 2008?
But back to the OP point. Do not ask what people want regarding skill respec. Implement it WITHOUT ASKING ANYONE. No polls, this time. Thanks
That’s the thing though, you’ve got anecdotal evidence from a handful of people (tens, maybe a hundred) & you’re assuming that it applies to tens/hundreds of thousands.
That’s really not leadership, that’s a dictator.
Granted, EHG isn’t a democracy, but if they head off in a direction that they “know what sheeple people want” but it’s actually not, then people will leave.
Umm, ok. Not sure you want to live in a democracy then.
There’s a graph for that, it’s been mentioned many times before.
This I kinda agree with though.
Well, tbf, his argument revolves around early game experience, he even pointed “not like in endgame, were you run 1 echo and the skill is back to being lv20.”…
So I guess this could work without leading to content being cheesed: the skill levels would be retained if respec’d only until the character finishes the campaign (or up until a certain level, maybe 55 or whatever the majority tends to finish the campaign at).
Or heck, maybe there could even be free, unlimited respecs until the character unlocks Empowered Monos… like, is there even something to cheese on before that?
edit: what I mean by respec applies only to changing points within the current class/skills, not swapping masteries.
Yes yes… peer reviewed research all over the world being wrong and you’re right.
If you wanna make a point then don’t be a obvious clown and understand how peer reviewing in the scientific community works… and why with sufficient time investment those false positives and negatives get naturally weeded out.
The topics you’re talking about have underlying studies about the core principles driving them since friggin decades, re-evaluated by hundreds of studies all around the globe, by a myriad of individuals, with the same friggin outcomes. Over… and over… and over.
So as said, you’re massively overestimating yourself, because what you said there clearly showcases the lack of information in those topics.
They don’t make ‘bad’ games. They make ‘generic’ games. That’s a difference.
Go on Steam and actually play a bad game, not a ‘bad’ AAA-published game which is simply shallow. Shallow games can be fun, they’re just often not worth the price-tag they come with.
Also for the US part… let’s not even get into that, the US is a mess in so many many ways and at a prime direction steering towards systemic poverty.
Yes, it is a fair argument… in specific areas of the world, with specific topics. For example planned obsolescence is a matter of material prices first and foremost. A prime example are filament light bulbs versus LED light bulbs. The former have a common lifetime of around 2 years, LED has a common lifetime of 10 years.
Planned obsolescence comes into play the moment products become very complex, hence providing lasting high quality would push the price-tag vastly higher, hence the ‘minimum requirement’ is done to then provide a second sale after it breaks down. This is a natural outcome because of profit maximization and the need to make initial sales… you need to stay competitive… and quality doesn’t make you competitive because the majority of people has no means to discern between high and low quality products.
Right of repair on the other hand solely depends on the country, I luckily life in Europe, and hence I have the right of repair by law, which means no shenanigans like in the US, there’s repair shops all around the area.
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Peeps peeps… wth is happening here? I only suggested to ease up on the skill respecing penalty in early game to encourage build exploration, how did it lead to… this? 
I was hoping someone would mention that LE is the only arpg that ‘punishes’ the player for experimenting with active skills and it would lead to a discussion of positives/negatives of such a system, but corp profit stats…? I don’t even.
If any mod is reading this, please close this down
No one mentioned that because it isn’t true.
In D2 you get only 3 free respecs (after many years of no respec at all) and then you have to farm bosses for the materials to respec again.
In PoE, you have to level up gems from scratch. True, you can buy them leveled via trade, but that requires farming for currency, so overall a much larger time investment than in LE. And if you’re only experimenting, you won’t be spending divines on leveled up gems that you won’t end up using.
So two of the biggest names in the diablo-clone world (including the one that created the term) have much harsher respec mechanics.
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I never played D2 so no clue how stuff works there, not interested in ancient games 
So my bad on that one.
In poe I can swap out a gem, if I don’t like it, I swap it back and it doesn’t lose levels.
If I want to know how i.e unleash support feels/looks, I can equip it and decide were to go from there. In LE if I wanna choose between i.e frost claws ‘power word: hail’ and ‘a crack in the ice’ my only option is to level up the skill, try one node, reset, level it up again to try the other. If I liked the former more, I have to reset and level it up again.
In grim dawn you can shuffle things around with a symbolic iron cost.
In d3 you can swap freely.
In d4, same as grim dawn, you pay very little gold and move stuff around.
Besides D2 (?), other games do not impose such restrictions, no clue what ur on about
In D3 that option leads to loadouts. You have a loadout to push GRifts, you have another loadout to speed run them, you have another loadout to farm keys/adventure mode, etc.
I don’t know if D4 already implemented this or not, but I imagine it won’t take too long to do the same as in D3.
In PoE, you end up having similar to loadouts, where every build has an alternate gem setup that you switch on the fly to fight bosses.
This is something EHG wants to avoid in LE. Having loadouts just means you don’t have to make a choice on balancing ST vs AoE because you can have both at the same time.
That’s why the current system exists. At empowered monos it’s not annoying enough to prevent experimenting stuff but it’s annoying enough that you won’t be respecing to cheese the boss.
But, as I agreed before, this is too punishing at lower levels, especially because at that point there isn’t much to cheese anyway. And yes, it’s true that you can complete the campaign with some levels less so experimenting during that time tends not to have an impact anyway, but new players aren’t aware of that and it leaves a negative connotation.
So it should be adjusted to be much less punishing at lower levels, during the campaign, and increasingly more punishing as you advance.
But free respec (or anything that leads to something that lets you cheese content) likely won’t happen ever because that goes against the game identity. And if it did, many of the game’s loyal players would leave because of it.
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That’s… not even remotely true.
Also the topic has been talked about a dozen times since this patch alone, not to speak the dozen times last patch, and the dozen times before that one.
Yes, early limitations should be eased up on a bit, overall system is fine, late-game it is no issue.
As for ‘early game punishment’… Path of Exile you can’t respec since you lack currency. Torchlight Infinite you have a very very limited respec and hence no option to switch around easily.
D4 is quite casual compared to LE.
Of the - current - ‘big’ diablo-clone titles… outside of well… Diablo 4… it’s actually the most lenient of the whole genre.
In PoE there’s several ways of power scaling.
Yes, you can switch out your skill gem. It restarts at level 1 with a new one. You got to re-level it fully. That gem keeps the experience on it though.
Passives are nigh impossible to change on the other hand and very very tightly interact with a lot of builds. Hard to switch over to a 1-hand skill when all your points are in 2-hand, right? Or from elemental to physical… or from melee to ranged.
It’s always again utterly and entirely baffling when people try to compare respec from PoE and LE when LE obviously has the vastly more forgiving system. It leads the topic every single time ad absurdum.
With Grim Dawn though I agree, well made game, well made respec… also a single-player game which has no need to ensure exploits are removed as well as possible to not cause the respective economy attached to the game becoming awry. Single-player games have a massive upside in how freely they can do things, as well as how much they need to care about some specifics… often makes them better.
You’ve never played any other diablo-clones besides Grim Dawn and the Diablo series I imagine? Because it’s actually fairly common.
You don’t know? Everything that can make the game just a little bit more smooth and welcoming for new players, something that LE should chase as much as possibile to don’t lose completely the audience that now are almost all on PoE2 and D4, without throw its identity of course, will always see the opposition of DJ. Every time I enter in this forum I see all the topics with its posts, I genuinely think he have more time on the forum than on the actual game he should definitely be hired from EHG, I want someone this loyal on my team.
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Let’s see.
First exposure to arpgs was titan quest.
Then Sacred series, but that was so long ago that I don’t remember jack about it.
Then Diablo 3 came around, spent couple thousand hours there.
Grim dawn, another couple thousand hour game for me and seems like 3rd xpack is on the way? yay ^^
Picked up PoE in betrayal league and am closing in to 3k hours on it.
D2remastered was announced and since I never played the original, looked into it. Overall it looked like a horrible game for me for many reasons so never picked it up.
Played a bit of torchlight 1 and 2, fate, d4 and some others I don’t remember names of in between . Tried torchlight infinite on PC, was asked to tap the screen during the tutorial, so I ‘tapped’ the uninstall button.
Now back on topic. I originally said that early game respecing is frustrating. But you guys started talking about late game, loadouts, cheesing stuff? politics? Full character respecs?
I just want to see how some nodes look, to see if I like them while I’m still leveling. That’s it. The option to do that is there, but for whatever reason I’m being ‘punished’ for being curious.
Do I think that switching Skills should be easy? No. I understand why it shouldn’t be easy and I support it.
Full character respec? Like going from bow to melee? That’s a new character as far as I’m concerned (though in poe you can do it, but only in late game when you have more regrets than you do in irl.)
Exploring how a skill interacts with different nodes (in LE) or support gems (in PoE) etc to make an education decision on how to progress the build? Should be free. It is free in poe. I get to level 31 i.e., I get access to a bunch of new supports. They cost nearly nothing, I can swap them out freely and use whatever I think fits my build best.
I’m not talking about being at endgame, being max level, getting ready to fight hard bosses. No. Just a level 30ish pleb in act 2 trying to figure out why I’m being forced to reset skill levels for wanting to try the other side of the tree.
The vast majority of Arpgs do punish leveling and build mistakes, the only ones I can really think of that do not are not pure arpgs, Elsword, Hades [a rogue like], a few others.
The main question is not should they- the answer is yes they should. its more of how to do it and to what extent. Some of them view builders as new players so they make low lvl build corrections easy but make high level ones almost unfixable. Others view leveling as a hard experience and reward it by making high level easy to respec.
My opinion, the second is bad game design. As most players will never hit end game, so you are just pushing out paying customers. Last Epoch uses the 2nd, which is why we see everyone complaining about it who are casuals.
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When you’re level 31 on a new character, very very often you don’t have enough transmutes, augs and alchs required for buying the gem from the vendor. So you can’t “swap them out freely” because at that point you can’t afford most of them. You can’t test half a dozen different combinations because you don’t yet have the currency for it.
Much like you can’t respec your passives freely at early levels because you don’t have the currency for it.
On LE, though, you can do both. You always have way more gold than you need even for a full passive respec and you can keep switching nodes without needing to pay anything.
Now, granted, as we’ve all agreed, it’s currently a little too punishing in the early game to respec skills and it should be less so. Although I’d argue that it shouldn’t have any penalty involved.
Penalties for changing decisions lend weight to those decisions, which is an important factor for many people’s fun. It’s why many people can’t play D3 or D4 for more than a couple days, because it doesn’t have any meaningful choices that feel impactful on your character. It doesn’t have character identity.
So we should definitely reduce those penalties in early leveling by a lot, but not remove them entirely, in my opinion.
Are you skipping rares and league mechanics while in campaign? That’s the only explanation on how you reached this conclusion. I never skip them for example and am rewarded with more than enough transmutes or alts at level 31 to buy all the supports that I wanna try 3 times over. Some league are more stingy then others sure, but in general if you don’t ‘yolo ima sp$$drun dis’, then you are fine.
I though ppl quit because the game is boring. Like items/content/open world, I run out of stuff to do in couple days D:
100% agree. By end game I know what I’m trying to achieve, and if I made a mistake in early game due to witch I’m having a hard time in end game, being penalized for it is fine with me. At that point I’m invested into my character enough that some friction is not a deal breaker.
Makes it plainly spoke all the more baffling to me as to why PoE was taken as a positive example. Especially so when you can’t afford a full passive respec until around level 80 and while giving up basically all upgrade potential you had by that time.
Not to speak of getting gems back to level 20 takes literal hours to do unless specific content is run, which is limited in supply and needs effort to build up to first.
The loadouts, cheesing and progression ratio is to be taken into consideration.
After all the core reason as to why the respec system is made as it is… is because of the aspect which PoE has (more like ‘had’ since they made it fall out of favor) by quick-swapping between AoE and single-target gems before boss-fights. That was to be avoided since it was a major frustration of getting things ‘more efficient’ and hence addressing this that way. Which gave up a few other things in return.
Hence some things have to be taken as a ‘unchangeable baseline’, which are that no changes for your character are allowed to happen during combat… hence during stages which aren’t a town. This brings the limitations, and with that in mind it’s a decently done system.
So, experience for re-grinding to a already achieved level early one should absolutely be quicker. It takes more time early (when it’s needed) compared to end-game (when it’s not needed and you can spend the time casually). This needs obviously to change.
In my eyes optimally by implementing a ‘ceiling’ experience already achieved in the highest skill of the class and hence giving bonus experience for re-skilling those skills until a maximum threshold is reached. Level 18 is one I would say is ‘decent’. Still a power-loss if you switch it for bossing… but not a detriment for experimentation.
Once again… no… it is not. The baseline mechanic is free to see, but you have no clue about the scaling happening henceforth after you start the initial testing, that needs levels in the gem and those you can’t easily get.
Yes, which PoE only has since… 5 years now that it’s actually a lot easier. And even then if you’ve got a ‘speedy progression’ like many do after playing 2-3 times through the campaign won’t provide you with a majority of the needed currency to acquire them, especially so since you’ll likely need them for picked up items with better sockets instead to make them better for the situation… as sockets are king in PoE and the right one is more important then good stats (which is why they removed that system in PoE 2 after all, since it was detrimental and limiting).
Yes, as you generally do when you wanna be speedy, which has been deemed the ‘common method’ in PoE. The campaign takes 4-6 hours for someone skilled and knowledgeable about the game. The majority of players use 10-20 though.
And that’s not speedrunning, because speedrunning allows you to finish the campaign in a bit more then 2 hours. And with some league mechanics and properly trained groups a level 100 speedrun is also sub 1 hour by now (albeit usually not possible because you need pack modifiers for that).
Yes, that, the respec system there which allows to basically make ‘1 character per class’ and be done and much more. Reasons are varied. It’s a big point why people run out of things to do.
If content runs out you can at least push your character further… but in D3 and D4 that option swiftly runs out, there is nothing to push towards.
Which was why D2 was so good, since you had options to push a character further for a year if you wanted.
The game is boring exactly because it has no meaningful decisions. There is exactly one, which is what class you want to play. After that, no decision is meaningful. You can change builds at the switch of a button. You quickly cap your paragon so that all that’s left is pumping your main stat. Nothing in D3 is permanent and there’s very little attrition to anything. Much like in D4.
And while most things aren’t permanent in both LE and PoE, at least those have enough attrition that lend weight to those decisions and make you consider them properly.
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