A proposal on making High Corruption more accessible to off meta builds

As it stands, there are only a select number of meta builds which consistently handle high corruption in the echoes at the ‘end of time’.

This is to be expected as by definition, meta builds are optimized to have the highest damage possible while being quick and with decent defenses.

In general, such builds typically follow a pattern, 1 traversal skill, 1 main hitter skill and 3 support skills for the support/boosting the 1 main hitter skill.

The typical pattern for High level Corruption usually devolves into a 1 shot kill or die situation. Either kill so fast that the enemy AI has no time to respond or attack or take enemy damage and die.

In general, off meta builds are not that efficient, they do not deal this much damage, tend to move more slowly, or require a long time to set up. So below is a proposal on how to make High Corruption more accessible to off meta builds without impacting meta builds. The below is applicable to echoes themselves and not the Harbingers/Boss Encounters faced at 900 stability.

Currently, Corruption affects player experience and item rarity, and enemy health and damage.

The proposed change is like this. On a static basis, Corruption scales directly with enemy health but not with enemy damage, and only with 50% of player experience and 50% item rarity. (Part 0)

In the echoes, whenever an enemy dies, the player gets a Corruption Stack (CS) which does the following things.

  1. Whenever an enemy deals damage to the player, it takes X% more damage. this stacks with other Corruption Stacks.

  2. Whenever an enemy dies the player gains additional experience and item rarity drops scaling directly with the number of Corruption Stacks. This (both experience and item rarity) scaled proportionally to the other 50% amount mentioned earlier in Part 0.

  3. While out of combat, Corruption Stacks will disappear after X seconds (say 10).

  4. Whenever a new Corruption Stack is added or player reenters combat, all other Corruption Stacks have their duration refreshed to the maximum.

  5. Number of Corruption Stacks a player can obtain is capped at the Corruption level the player started the echo with. At high Corruption levels, more Corruption Stacks are obtained per enemy death.

Melee attacks on enemies gains player a Melee Stack (MS) which function like this below.

  1. 1 Melee Stack negates 0.5 to 1 Corruption Stack’s enemy damage bonus but NOT the Experience gained/Item Rarity.

  2. Melee Stacks lasts X (say 10) seconds out of combat and refreshes all stack duration whenever player enters combat or gain a new Melee Stack. Melee Skills add more (X) Melee Stacks, more so for Melee Skills with cooldown.

  3. Players may not gain more Melee Stacks than the number of Corruption Stacks present on the player.

Based on the changes above, how would it affect players?
For meta builds, nothing changes, by definition, meta builds are high damage, high tempo builds which kill fast. Nothing essentially changes.

For off meta builds, this allows a slow down, and for breaks in between bouts. This changes allows for such builds to clear High Corruptions but it takes significantly more time to clear each echo and with lower rewards.

The only problem is the loot that drops, which players might have to backtrack to collect. Of which I propose a solution to that. Any loot uncollected after the player leaves the echo instead appear within a white color Loot lizard in the intermission area (Where you go to sell loot).

Would not work because each monolith has different amount of enemies and each build will vary in how many enemies they kill.

With your idea and suggestion, builds that do not kill mobs on pull to monolith will progress far faster and easier to bosses which are the only thing that matter in monolith as they drop the unique gear.

The increase in probability to get better gear with corruption is negliable as someone who tested it on 1.0 with 6000 uniques. No one will make their fights harder by killing trash mobs to slow down the bosses for insignificant increases to drop rates

All this does is punish high damage builds and reward low damage tank builds as you won’t need to ever kill trash mobs. It will also kill the game by forcing players to avoid most monoliths with mandatory enemy spawns

All we need to fix corruption in game is to make a few changes. First remove unempowered monolith entirely.

Have mono only unlock at end of the campaign. And always at C100. Then make orobos much harder as a special variant make it so that that version always increases Corruption by 100.

That way all you need to reach 300C is 3 monoliths clears. This makes it faster and removes tedium allowing tank builds to get to high corruption without it taking 500 years

So you want to reduce the damage mobs do by X and give a bonus/buff for killing quickly. Wouldn’t that push/give an incentive towards glass cannon builds as well as allowing meta builds to reach higher corruption (as they’re receiving less damage)? It would also push towards single target builds/damage as that’s the harder content.

Or, and this is just a crazy idea, the game’s balance could be improved reducing the gap between meta and not meta builds.

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I opened up one of the youtubers who does build guides, for example, Action RPG. Last 3 builds I see are Dancing Strikes Bladedancer, I see Golemancer Necro, I see Cinder Strike “Bow mage” Marksman. AFAIK none of those builds are “meta”, and all of them are handling high corruption.
So, what is your methodology for determining that “only a select number of meta builds” consistently handle it?

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I think he’s talking about 1k+. Aaron’s builds usually do 300-600 (the non-meta ones, which are the ones he usually does). Most builds will usually fall in this range.

1k+ isn’t supposed to be done by any build, so it’s likely that the meta builds will be heavily nerfed in the next major patch.

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cries in v0.8 Marrow Shards

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It doesn’t say anywhere that you cannot push higher with those builds. When someone records a gameplay video at X corruption, it does not mean that this corruption is where the build stops.

Not to mention that the golemancer video I used as an example of a “non-meta” build is literally called (emphasis mine):

Last Epoch Golemancer Necromancer Endgame Build Guide… Over 800 Corruption! Aarons WILL!

True, but I do follow Aaron and his build guides are usually pushing the limits. It’s possible you could get higher, but usually what he says he got to is already pushing it. He usually streams while making the builds and he does try to push as best he can.

And the golemancer is his “pet build” (it’s based on his unique design, after all) so it’s the one he’s made that goes the highest.

But there are still non-meta builds that push high enough corruption. Shield bash (not really meta) can reach 800+ as well and a few others.

I don’t follow him, and I disagree that those builds are pushing the limits. Far from it. But the ideas behind his build guides are probably not relevant to the topic.

If you know that, why are you expecting a nerf only for meta builds? It wouldn’t solve anything. Off-meta would just become the new meta :slight_smile:

I expect a massive nerf to the meta builds that are doing 1k+ and one shotting Aberroth. I expect a slight to medium nerf to builds that are doing 800+.

There will always be meta builds. If you balance the game so that every single build is between 300c and 500c, the ones that do 500c will be the meta. There’s no getting around that.
And we’ve seen in 1.1 that the 1.0 meta builds were all nerfed, but many are still meta, like ballista and fissure builds.

So I only expect massive nerfs to builds that are doing higher corruption than intended by the devs (1k+) and/or one shotting Aby, since I don’t expect they want that to happen so soon after releasing it.
The rest might still get nerfs, depending on how well they have performed this cycle, but I think only the meta ones are getting them for certain because they are really out of control, comparing to the rest.

Also, they’re going to be redoing Volatile Reversal and a few other Sentinel stuff, as well as giving Lich a whole new skill and revamp, so given EHG’s track record on this, I expect those will be the meta builds next cycle :laughing:

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Yes, that should be obvious.
I was pointing to the fact that if the goal was to prevent reaching 1k+ corruption, you would have to nerf all builds, not just the current meta ones.

Can you name a single build which could reach 1k+ corruption in Cycle 1.0, but cannot reach 1k+ corruption in Cycle 1.1 and later?

Not all builds reach 1k+. Not even most of them.

Most of the ward based ones,. (EDIT: I mean, most of the ward abusing ones, just to clarify)
Definitely HH bolts build and its variants.
I don’t know if wraithlord can still reach 1k+. It was nerfed, but clearly not enough.
Cold trap was also nerfed to below 1k+, I believe.

Iva Markova has a video clearing 1600c with divine bolts.

Yeah it can. Sir Grindalot has a video at 950c.

I don’t play Rogue, so I’m not sure if this is “cold trap”? If yes, he’s at 2k.

HH uses Ward, so I guess that covers that :slight_smile:

No she doesn’t. The video is still from 1.0. She just updated the description. There’s no way divine bolts generate that much ward in 1.1.

Technicality, but 950c isn’t 1k+ :wink:

It’s not that one. I don’t know what it was called, but it was the one where cold traps exploded screen wide. It was nerfed still in 1.0 with the mid-cycle patch. So I guess technically that doesn’t count, since it didn’t do 1k+ at the end of 1.0.

See point 1 :stuck_out_tongue:
There were a bunch of builds that only got to 1k+ because they could stack ward to 50k+. With 1.1 they can’t, so they don’t reach as high.

Yes, she does. You can see the 1.1.0.1 version in the top left of the video and you can see the map screen with 1606 corruption https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npGGckXsWhc

Oh yeah, I actually saw that video early on 1.1. Although she does have amazing gear.
But the point was that in 1.0 with mediocre gear anyone could do 1k+. After 1.1 that stopped being so.

Most builds can be pushed to really high corruption by a determined grinder, but the majority of people won’t get there. And there were lots of easy builds in 1.0 that anyone could use to reach 1k+ that now can’t do that unless you really grind for it.
Divine bolts (or the smite variant) was one of them, where even with mediocre gear you could reach 50k ward easily and barely ever die. This is not the case anymore.

So it’s not that builds can’t reach 1k in 1.1, it’s that the majority of players can’t push it that high unless they really grind a lot on it, which most won’t do.

Pretty sure the point was

meta builds were already nerfed so I expect more nerfs to builds that are doing higher corruption than intended AND/OR oneshotting pinnacle boss

so it has nothing to do with gear level or ward amounts, thank you very much :wink:

So if you actually watch the video, you can see the clearing speed of “higher corruption than intended” is still very reasonable, so it’s not like reaching 1k corruption became a much grindier thing to do than it was before.
If anything, it became way easier. Thanks to the new Glyph, the new mechanic that spawns the Orobyss fight every time your timeline is not in line with your highest corruption timeline, and some other changes.

Since your premise was incorrect, there’s also no basis for expecting a meta-build-encompassing nerf, and much less a nerf to all builds.

Actually, it has. If a build has 5 people that can reach 1k+ and 100 people that range 500-900c, it probably won’t be nerfed as hard as a build that has 100 people that do 1k+.

And most of the ward abusing builds in 1.0 had hundreds of people using it. Because you didn’t require 3LP legendaries. In fact, you didn’t even need LP at all. There were lots of builds in 1.0 that could reach 1k+ with 0LP and a handful of exalteds. Because the problem was that the skill interaction was broken.
Since 1.1 nerfed ward massively, those builds now can’t reach 1k+ anyore with 0LP and medium gear.

My point wasn’t that grinding echoes is hard. It’s that grinding to get that good a gear is hard. The problem with the broken builds in 1.0 was that you didn’t need great gear. You could reach 1k+ with mediocre gear you got during normal monos. Because the interactions were so broken that you could generate lots of ward with barely any investment.

Just like you can still reach 1k+ with mediocre gear in some builds now, like static orb. Which will most certainly be nerfed.

The idea that if something is proven to be overpowered, but it only gets nerfed if enough people use it, is extremely silly. Really hope you’re not serious here.

Of course they can. That’s why this topic exists in the first place :smiley:

So what is mediocre gear exactly? Full exalted? Because I don’t see anyone running monos in yellow gear.

You seem to be stuck on this idea that only because a bugged interaction exists, people could go to high corruption with no legendaries. This isn’t the case.

I am. You can clearly see this through PoE’s history where some builds have been quite strong for a while but only a few people were aware of them, so no changes were made to them. Only when they become mainstream are they nerfed.
Much like exploits. There are lots of times when exploits exist for several leagues but only a few use them, so the devs aren’t aware of it and don’t fix it until it becomes common knowledge.

But my point wasn’t about only a few people using them. It was about most people using them in a “normal” manner not reaching 1k, but those few ultra grinders spend hundreds of hours getting super duper gear like legendary red rings and the like, and they can push 1k+.

There is a distinction between a build requiring 10h of play to reach 1k+ and requiring 100h to reach 1k+.

No, the ward abusing builds don’t do that anymore. Because the interaction for ward abusing is gone, so the builds that did 150k ward now do 2-4k ward and can’t survive in high corruption anymore.
They could still reach 1k+ corruption if they spend dozens of hours grinding for great gear, but they can’t do it anymore with just basic non-legendary gear.

0LP uniques and exalted gear that isn’t necessarily a good base or has all the correct affixes maxxed out.
I know because I used divine bolts in the last couple weeks of 1.0 just for fun (had a single 1LP unique) and when 1.1 came around that build was getting one shot left and right.