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3 points of importance Bots, Items and PvP

Some might get upset because these are subjective opinions. I’m not offering anything revolutionary. Just, for me, these are the 3 most important topics for an RPG. It’s just a summery and generalization of suggestions for a popular and long lasting game.

Bots are the worst problem for most games.
I’m surprised few companies prioritize it. Hardcore players don’t want to compete with a bunch of botter-farmers. A lot of people don’t understand how detrimental bots are to these games. I’m surprised more people aren’t more outspoken about this problem. On the other hand, a lot of people think bots are no problem. Sometimes they’re pleased that it makes the gear ‘cheaper’ (don’t ask me…). Some will even suggest bots are good! Other times people claim bots are impossible to stop, therefore trying is total waste of time. Well, it’s difficult to stop. There are ways surely, and an effort goes a long way. Removing bots should be the first priority. There’s probably a million ways to catch the bots fast. One thing’s for sure, most botters will never give up.

Items are important.
New, more powerful items is power creep and a nerf. By creating new more powerful items over time, a majority of players receive a new chance to catch up to the players with better gear. You’re actually nerfing the existing items in a round about way. A developer might even think this is good, appeasing a majority and punishing people with the existing items. ‘If we can motivate newer or weaker players, that’s a good thing’, they might think. Or maybe the developer thinks they’re creating new content by adding the more powerful items. Content after all, is what players often demand. But introducing new items over time undermines one of the most important aspects of the game - item collecting.

Having the items immutable/timeless from the beginning is important. Random rolls of varying stats and attributes. That is, each item is pretty unique on it’s own. A ‘perfect’ item should be intensively impossible. It’s important that players can be proud of their gear. Any update shouldn’t add fundamentally new and more powerful items to ‘seem’ like progress/new content. Does anyone think new more powerful items will make the game more challenging and fulfilling? Or maybe they think it’s just a reason for existing players to do the new content? New content without new items is a difficult proposition. I guess someone needs to figure that out. I don’t like to see the value of an existing item system undermined for the sake of new PvE content. I think item’s potential power should be immutable from the beginning.

PvP is important.
A lot of people don’t like PvP. For others, it’s the only reason to play. Some will say FPS games are for PvP, so it’s unnecessary in an RPG. Someone that appreciates the PvP in an RPG knows about the importance of having good items too. An RPG doesn’t have to be purely skill based, like a FPS. The PvP depends a lot on builds and items. The PvP isn’t inherently worse because not everyone is on even ground, and for some, it’s what makes the RPG more fun. The PvP can involve a bit of character build, items and some skill. In the end, the more ‘skilled’ player won’t probably beat someone with just 10% better gear, all else equal. So what though?

1v1 duels are ok, but lacking. Team duels are really fun. Characters that can offer synergy to each other is nice. Something like real teamwork. There’s so much that could be done, a variety of modes, and even stat tracking. A lot of RPG games are just bad at PvP. Not many use things like an area with some terrain. Maybe even randomly generated to mix it up, IDK. One thing that doesn’t work well, is if everyone just piles on top of each other totally spamming everything they’ve got in proximity. Somehow, the PvP needs to feel tactical at least.

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If bots are stoppable, why is there literally no game out there with a currency that allows you to trade/sell to other players bot free? Prioritizing looks a lot different from inside a company than it does to the player outside. Giving away information on how they are fighting/banning bots is just giving the bot makers an opportunity to learn and adapt, so although it may look like a company doesn’t prioritize bot control, they most likely have put forth an immense effort towards it that you can’t see.

Having timeless items is essential but it’s a delicate thing, and it’s not the only way for items to remain interesting. Take a look at Path of Exile for example. Each patch has the potential to add interesting mechanics that interact with old, possibly forgotten uniques or affixes. Sometimes the meta just might shift, causing old items to get popular again. However, this doesn’t mean that releasing new uniques, ways to itemize, craft, or find items (and as a result introducing some power creep) is a bad thing. There is a proper way to do both of these things simultaneously. It’s just the nature of games like these that you shouldn’t expect items or builds to remain strong forever, and power creep is a vital thing to keep players interested over a long period of time. If I am hunting the same exact 4 affix items for the same builds 3 years from now, what exactly is my motivation to play the game?

This is not to mention that this game is going to be a constantly evolving experience where you will be starting over fresh every X months, which keeps existing items interesting. Having to craft that completely perfect item or 4 LP unique again is going to keep players engaged regardless of how much power creep is introduced.

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If the bad items that got crept out were boring then I don’t really care about that part. I think power creep is fun because I like playing with new toys. For me the worst thing that could happen is the devs low ball a new unique’s power and it sucks.

All that being said it is not a zero sum game. Legendaries were power creep but affected all uniques on a similar scale. This also allows for set items to occupy a powerful space of “super unique items” with out being so powerful as to push out all competition.

Welcome aboard as it was your first post OP.

I have little to add to this as sadly those 3 topics have been discussed endlessly in the forums already, often starting in different named topics.

What I am trying to say is that there are already tons of posts on these subjects. Bots for example got a massive forum rinse during the amrketplace/trading discussions of a few weeks back. Items get dusted off every time dungeons are currently discussed, and beat to death during the crafting system change in many topics.

If you are interested on the opinions of the existing player base on these topics, may is suggest a forum search on them. You will find most of us have gotten metaphorical sore throats from all the typing - I know I have. Sadly, I’m too worn out to repeat it all in this new thread. Enjoy your time here :wine_glass:

But thats the best part of these cycle based games when it comes to loot. Even if you collect a rare 1 of a kind item in one season, in the next there could be a new one of a kind item.

Aslong as the old items are not completely useless then I think having newer better items to chase is core to the experience. Things like rav void can only be fun to shoot for, for so long.

Bots are literally unstoppable, however this game has a way it circumvents it. The bots “Farming” to sell need to buy in, so “Gold selling bots” isnt gonna be a problem like in a F2P game. Normal players wont be making bots to run them to farm for them either and if they do they will be a minority of a minority lol.

Anti bot measures NEED to have 0 effect on the player, thats why they are so hard to do. if you even slightly gum up a menu or ui or feature to “Stop bots” and some poor new player comes in and goes “why is this system hurting me?” and the response is “oh we have such a bot problem we have to restrict your game experience to try and control it :P” then you have massively failed and it would be better to let bots run rampant.

Its not, this is the one place where its just a fact at this point. PvP does not sell, it will be a side feature at most. But since it most likely wont be balanced that will further push people away from it. Gamers are too smart now, a game where someone with 4lp legendaries one shots you on chain is never gonna sell. And even if they “Balance” it, it will never be balanced enough to keep people happy.

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Yeah, it’s going to be less of a problem since the bots would need to have sales of greater than the LE box price (in addition to their usual costs such as power, etc) in order to turn a profit, it raises the bar but it doesn’t get rid of it completely. How much it helps, I guess we’ll see when MP goes live. :slight_smile:

Given the disparity in power between the highest end of player power & the mid/lowest, I don’t think it’ll be possible to have that balanced in a way that allows people to take their PvE characters into PvP & expect a “fair” or reasonable match.

That said, PvP is important to some (such as AgentR) & not to others (such as yourself). How important it is to the developers is a separate argument & even then, it’ll vary between them. I think Mike likes PvP & I’m sure others won’t.

PvP is quite a divisive topic.
As Llama said, some people absolutely love it, some never bother with it.
I’ve indulged in some mmorpgs where there’s been a ladder, and sometimes a guild ladder but not in many, I have to say.
Some games are based entirely around it, where it’s group or single PvP, some are not like here where it would be at best a sideshow.

Then of course there’s the age old debate inside PvP of whether to balance or not to balance, and then even deeper how much to balance. It’s a Pandora’s Box. Do you stick everyone at a fixed skill level with points? Do you give everyone minimum gear or allow their own? A well established min/maxed toon will obliterate a new max level toon in seconds, but is that how you want it to be or not?

Personally, I think that LE has far too many other things to work on before even contemplating PvP. It’s far too complex of an issue and there are far too many other things to get right first imho…

Items is always a complicated matter in ARPGs. With uniques the problem comes when an item is BIS for a broad archetype (IE: All fire-based builds), BIS for an item type (IE: Previous Bastion for shields), or that can replace a generic T20 item entirely.

Uniques really shine when expands your build options, or empower very niche play styles or skill selections, or have very strong effects but with downsides you have to work around.

There’s not a definitive anwser of what makes an unique excellent, we have plenty of good and bad uniques in the game currently, I only hope the uniques are under constant supervision to give players more options to build with, instead of less (usually due to being BiS or required to make X work).

No worries about Bots in Last Epoch, as there won’t be open trading.

There also won’t be any PvP (to my knowledge). So, that’s not an issue either.

The entire game is an item-chase game, so, again, IMHO, no issue there either.

We assume, we don’t know what they’re going to do with trading since they said they’re scrapping the Bazaar.

Another design decision that just boggles the mind. All these resources going to implementing MP, just so people can group in a game that hardly requires it. Trading is the one aspect of MP that people who don’t group can still take advantage of, and now it looks like that is gone right out the window as well.

The bazaar was the one part of MP that looked interesting…

No, they’ve just decided that their intended implementation of trading wasn’t going to go down well & that they would need to change it based on feedback from the community. At no point have they said that they are dumping trading (which is what I assume you mean when you say “gone right out the window”).

If you’re the kind of person that enjoys spending all day wandering round a car boot sale looking for the one decent thing in a mountain of tat, yes. I don’t so their original version “boggles the mind” but apparently quite a lot of people (in the UK at least) do, so…

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I’ve heard so many different things on this now. I guess I’ll just have to wait until (whenever) to see what is actually coming. Still not holding out too much hope. And yes, the randomness of the original bazaar concept seemed interesting. Instead of falling back on the POE-style web search for whatever is up for sale.

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Its understandable that not everyone wants to keep track of all the different sources if news, since it can be very tiring staying up to date.

But there are very easy and digestible informations out there in foms of news and dev blogs.

Here is the passage from the dev blog they announce the latest update to the roadmap (including the removal or Gates of Memorium and Epoch’s Call along side the reiteration of the trading conecpt).

The bolded part is the important one.

Hard disagree. The impact that bots have on most players of most games is no more than being an excuse to self-generate indignation. With a few exceptions, actual degradation of the player experience is rare and often unnoticeable. It would be better that EHG spend their resources on game content and features than the wild goose chase of botters that don’t matter except to people who’ve forgotten that games aren’t real.

Hard disagree. Creating new items that nobody cares about because they’re either side-grades or not powerful is how you create a stagnant game. In a game that is designed to be played for a long time, over years and through many content/update cycles, older things are inevitably going to become outdated and fall behind. Players need to have the maturity to deal with not being able to hit the top once and then never having to do it again. That you see “new and more powerful items” as a “punishment to players with existing items” is a problem with your emotional state, not with game design.

Hard disagree. PvP is not a strong enough selling point for enough of the player population that it should be considered at all important in a primarily PvE game. This is known. It’s time PvP enthusiasts accepted that they are not and will never be a primary audience for any game that isn’t built from the ground up around PvP.

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Community feedback is almost pointless because some people have exact opposite opinions. Lots of talk about marketplace and meh. I spent 8 hours a day in D2 chat room looking to trade items, seeing the same messages spammed at once in awhile an interesting deal. It worked, but took a lot of time. It was better than joining a ‘trade game’ at least. Then D2JSP came, and the forum made it a lot better…

Sometimes the fun part of trading is negotiating item for item(s). For me, an in a game board where people list their items would be enough. Then you could message the person and try and make a trade. The board would just be finding items for sale. It would just have a filter for everything. Of course some draw back would be subjective time-wasters…like someone with a single really good item that really wont ever trade it. There could be more to it, I won’t write anymore details.

For me, item collecting is really important. You know, like an item that is 1% better than the next best costs like 5x more, lol.

In game currencies don’t usually work so well for item trading (especially if the bots exist), because in my experience, people value their items infinitely more than the in game currency, usually. I think it would be awesome if there was in game currency that really worked well. Honestly real money marketplace works the best, but that comes with problems too, like real life legal problems and every kind of scammer that real money makes situations worse in the big picture.

Community Feedback can never been pointless - opposite opinions is exactly what the devs need to be able to make an informed choice about a particular feature…

They have already said that they are going back to the drawing board on the trading aspects of the game because of feedback from the community on their original proposals… and this was before they even implemented anything.

Yes, they have to make a decision on how they are going to do it, and its unlikely that whatever trading option they chose will be to everyones taste, but at least they can make a decision based on feedback rather than just implementing something without any kind of input from their existing player base.

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Yeah, I’m also sad to see the idea of the Bazaar disappear before we even got to see it. As I stated elsewhere in the forums, I played in a game with a Bazaar before and it worked very well. It actually also encouraged people talking to each other while loitering around. That’s something I have yet to see repeated in any online game with trading that I have played since, not once.

I find it a little sad that the idea got shot down in flames by a consensus of opinions in here based on nothing more than a name. I wish they’d shown the same determination they show now in keeping this new awful crafting system with the Bazaar idea and at least taken it to a testing stage.

It didn’t, the devs gave a description of how it would work (like a car boot sale with randomly selected player “stalls” which we wouldn’t be able to influence/change) and that’s what the community reacted to. I assume you weren’t here for the several months of discussion? There were plenty of people on both sides of the argument.

That already happens a lot at the moment, no trade needed…

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I can’t believe it’s that hard to figure out, tbh. There’s only so many ways to implement trade. If they can get a community-sourced unique “to-market”, from scratch, using only the forum-based vote feature, why not do the same with trade? Let’s see what the community wants and go from there. No need to waste all this time in the vacuum of space, coming up with idea(s) the community will just be divided on anyhow. Throw the different methods up for vote, and let majority decide…