I totally understand why you and others feel that to be the case, but so far, nobody has offered any actual proof to support the claims. Honestly, we don’t have that data, and the only people who would have it are EHG themselves, and unless they are willing to provide that data, both sides are just taking about personal opinions/ tiny sample sizes.
This single forum is a great example. The tiny amount of people posting on it have different opinions on if this is good or bad for the game/ community.
However it is a great addition for those who have an incredibly limited amount of time to play due to their life being very busy. This is the only benefit I think it will have, and I believe the downsides heavily outweigh this.
I liked the idea of slowly building up and making a character for each class, partly because of a “completionist” drive, but also because it was necessary to fully explore every corner of each class. Now that I can respec the mastery whenever I feel and then spend 60-100k gold of my tens of millions to instantly max out the tree it just really dampens that enjoyment and will also lessen my future playtime considerably.
I just watched the Ziz/Rax interview with EHG and their proposed solution seems pretty good, except for one detail.
Basically, your mastery respec cost goes up with each level. I think they said at 80-ish it’s about 500k gold. So I do have to give props to EHG once again. This system is bound to please both sides of this issue.
However, tying it to gold seems to be inherently unfair to CoF players. MG already has an easier time getting stash tabs (when CoF are the ones that actually need them more). This just gives them one more advantage over CoF.
At this point I’m on board with Kulze’s idea of removing gold as the MG currency, because it seems that the inequalities only tend to increase over time.
Anyway, I’m happy with this system for mastery respec (especially if you do remove the MG/CoF inequality). We invest in our characters and once you’re a high enough level the cost is significant enough that you won’t be doing it lightly and it still retains the identity.
And if you do decide to respec a mastery, the high cost will also make it a meaningful choice.
That’s a good thing for those people. Said people are normaly hit with the “if you don’t have time don’t play time intensive games… duh!” club of the narrowminded.
Then again the calculation is rather easy. Before the change you had a maximum timeframe of playing 15 toons to 100 and now it’s enough to play 5 to 100. Sure this example is very simple but the ammount of needed time to get every class to 100 was cut down by 2/3 because we are able to switch masterys. I think the least ammount of people will go for the maximum from now on.
This is a win for people with little to no time and most likely a retention loss over all in the long run. So I played my Necro now I make my Lich… waaaait a second I just click one button.
No offense here DJ, but you seem to be very easy to please with a solution like that.
That was already expected and you are still “giving props” for them for a very basic solution that isn’t anything special and was very obvious.
The only thing to make me personally happy on top of having such a decent gold cost associoated with it to make me happy withou any more nouanced systems as discussed here earlier or in other threads would be either one or both of these:
Have the cost ramp up extensively per mastery respec used on a given character
Give it a hard cap amount of how many times you can do it. (3 times, that would be enough to swap 2 tiems to test the otehr 2 masteries and the 3rd swap to go back to whatever mastery you enjyoed the most)
I have to agree with Heavy here, 500k isn’t insignificant for lv 80, but it’s also not so significant that I’d rather just start a new character. I have two characters in the current cycle a lv 10 Sentinel and a lv 64 Necromancer. I finished the campaign and the first Normal Monolith Timeline and I’m sitting at 291,968 Gold.
A single echo (Rare Axes) where I sold a single full inventory took me roughly 6m30s to clear and brought me to 300,170, earning me 8,202 Gold or ~1.2k/min
And that’s with normal monoliths at lv 64. It would take me ~7 hours of farming to earn 500k at these rates. That’s without a gold shrine, without an actual loot filter, and without having an actually strong build. 7 hours of playtime per Respec, while again, isn’t insignificant, it’s definitely faster than making a new character
Edit: it’ll prevent hotswapping for content for most players, but it doesn’t give the character any identity back
Well then is u fault that u don’t know to make gold. And flash news in LE MG also exist. And 500k i say is to low for lvl 80. I agree with mastery respec but this is only the start.
I am, because they said they would keep an eye on this and adjust the values accordingly. So I expect that if it’s too easy to respec they’ll increase the costs or the ramping of it.
The trailer had 0 cost displayed. That would be terrible. Mike then said there would be a cost to it, but didn’t elaborate and I was assuming a flat cost.
With a cost based on level (especially if it ramps up much higher in the last 15-20 levels like XP does) this isn’t such an issue. If you’re low level and want to switch around, then it’s fine. If you’re level 95, the cost will likely prevent you from switching all the time, which was my main issue. I don’t have a problem with you switching masteries around until 85-ish and higher, since that is when you’re really commiting to your build (plenty of build defining uniques are level 70-ish or higher, after all).
I do dislike that it’s tied to gold and thus MG will have an easier time with it, but personally I’m happy with the system as it was presented. As long as they keep an eye on it and adjust costs accordingly.
Upfront disclaimer: Huge post with many answers. Damn being not here a few days has gotten quite the amount of people writing!
Yeah, nobody speaks against that.
Which is why the suggestions about limited respecs where given. After all it allows to adjust after mistakes but doesn’t invalidate the choice having some sort of meaning. It’s acceptable and fitting especially given the choice is provided so early in the game without knowledge of what it’ll actually cause.
But the current solution from EHG simply ‘is not it’.
Also:
Fine as well, if provided then the respec itself should have a substantial value.
Gold can’t have that in the current setup and massively favors MG players/characters. That’s simply a bad state which shouldn’t happen in the first place. Faulty design.
Given how awful the other 3 are in terms of design (yes, plans to work on them but we have no clue how the outcome will be, so I’m speaking about the ‘now’ situation simply) I wouldn’t want to see that.
If there’s some proper design reworks coming for the content - that doesn’t include solely ‘skip it’, so darn lazy… - then I’ll agree with that also wholeheartedly. It’s an option that’s available.
The post seems to me like it was meant with regards to LE.
If it was in regards to GD then yes… but in GD you don’t play ‘those several character which are supposed to have a bit of a alternate backstory’ but ‘the hero’ simply, with a choice who ‘the hero’ is supposed to be. It focuses on personal immersion rather then the storytelling aspect from another perspective where you simply slip into the role to re-tell it.
Both are fine, it’s why PoE 1 and 2 have no choice for gender since the characters are ‘pre set stories’ and especially in PoE 2 (less so 1) the general build-direction represents that… while also showcasing their different stances towards the same happenings.
In GD it’s fully immersed, hence why your character basically doesn’t provide any active feedback, as it’s ‘you in the front of the screen’ being adressed and not like in PoE ‘the character in the screen’.
Simply different type of storytelling allowed through the usage of a game.
LE simply combines it badly, which is a downside.
Plainly spoken in my own view? Yes.
I also would’ve enjoyed a vastly more limited method of respeccing there. Meaning a build is rather fixed, with few options to re-do it after initially taken. Adjusting the skills inside the tree is a thing I would enjoy to see, but switching out the chosen skills for the build? No. That should in my perspective be a rather important one.
Hence limited because you can - and will - make mistakes, so to remedy them rather then enforcing a full-scale replay the respec option was initially invented.
It’s just been taken to a whole other meaning. It was designed to fix mistakes and not to experiment. In my personal view it should’ve never been pushed further.
There was one, shortly before the change happened.
So given that now the question is the other way around… is that a sign of ‘it’s going to change back’?
I’m also very confused with EHG, since a while now.
Urmh… I think you haven’t properly understood what was written there.
The long-run is obvious to change as this design aspect causes a large amount of follow up design decisions for balancing and content. It’s a low-level base when you touch how adjustable your character is. All mechanics beyond that have a need to be designed around such a decision or the details - worked out of decades by now of what works and doesn’t work - simply don’t apply anymore. That causes problems.
LE wasn’t designed around mastery respec. Sure, it can be made towards it going forward, but it isn’t now.
The biggest issue for LE since 1.0 with the speed-up of progression has been content longevity seen by the high demand of end-game mechanics, and understandably so EHGs focus on providing those rather then even fixing the systems they already have in place. Why? ‘The players want to experience the game more, but the game is unable to provide it yet’ is always the issue related to end-game content.
That means ongoing value to play it and still have a reliable feeling of achievement hasn’t been provided. That can be alleviated by replay value which is broadening the game rather then extending it.
Less respec options automatically broadens the game as to experience the differences between the builds you need to invest the time.
Hence it goes actively counter to one of the biggest issues LE has at the current state of the game.
It’s simply a nonsensical approach from EHG at the current time. I’ve repeatedly said the part ‘at the current time’ far too often since 1.0. EHG implements their stuff simply either not optimized for usage properly (factions, boss ward) or jumps the gun with things that can be changed/added but shouldn’t yet (respec, Aberroth - hence a boss - rather then time-intensive end-game mechanics).
It’s a general very visible direction that’s quite clear-cut of what goes wrong with their game design. Prioritizing changes properly and organizing the content pipeline properly.
Depends on the gold price and the xp-price.
Skill XP is plainly spoken not relevant for end-game, so it has no meaning at that point. level 1-20 is achieved in 20 minutes, the current - I think 14? to 20 - is 10-15 minutes. That’s neglecible.
Gold-price also is an issue. Are you going to balance it towards CoF usage or MG usage? It’ll cause a substantial difference in how people perceive it, and can force players playing MG despite preferring CoF simply because otherwise it isn’t relevant to them. But having a low cost makes it once more… neglecible.
So both are in my opinion a bad resource to use for the system in the current state anyway.
The systems provided are ‘nearly’ full-free, or as close as they can be, so people simply name it this way because it makes basically no difference anyway. We don’t need to start penny-pinching on details there since it’s simply too close in perception for many.
My big question for it still is… what would be the downside of it given the limitations of item usage between the factions? Why the need to have a separate system in place to stop the switching ‘back and forth like crazy’? You wouldn’t get any upside anyway.
Your faction system is basically ‘bricking progress’ currently since it invalidates the progress upon switching (outside of rep) by removing all item usage and the whole invested time (favor) already.
My personal opinion is that a special resource solely for something like that would be better then ingraining pre-existing resources. Hence… for factions a ‘retirement token’ allowing a character to unspec from said faction they chose. Or in the case of mastery respec a token which allows to switch it one time only before being used up.
Acquisition of those being time intensive to cause the respective hindrance. The first being provided ‘for free’ though in case of a mistake.
That’s where I have to disagree. It absolutely would! Since different setups are doing better against different content. Hence it - even if not wanted - would actively promote a player to do so. Because it would provide more success.
Glad to hear you’re open to make adjustments though. We’ll all see how it exactly plays out when 1.2 drops anyway.
You can’t. Which is why it’s repeatedly pointed out.
As long as gold is a resource used in MG there can’t be mechanics available like respec or tabs and still have the same value. Because MG changes that respective value substantially for players.
Which is why MG needs a separate currency so Gold can be free to actually have a reliable value for usage in auxiliary adjustments like re-spec or tabs.
Agreed.
We’ve already seen what happens when such massive adjustments changing the whole feel of the game are thrown out. PoE 1 showcased it best with ‘Harvest’ and the still lingering clashing perceptions having nearly broken apart the community back then.
It’s a game-design’s pandora’s box to open. You can’t properly close it up anymore. If the ghost’s out then the ghost’s out.
Yes, and that was also what was asked for. But it isn’t what happened.
Players asked primarily for ‘more end-game content’ and ‘fixing old unbalanced stuff’.
We got a pinnacle boss though, which isn’t a major engaging type of content as it’s… well… a boss… no major mechanic with longevity attached… and not a focus on balancing either during that.
So now we have the catch-up with 1.2 where content comes. But suddenly the balancing gets thrown under the bus further even? It feels really ‘backwards’.
I’m very much looking forward to it happening then.
Because I actually can’t see a way how that won’t be a thing.
Only since Blizzard remade the game.
The original doesn’t have that ability. And many people haven’t played the ‘new version’ yet to see how exactly it pens out… or long enough to see the differences there.
I personally still come from a time when a missclick on a single point in D2 meant ‘make a new character, you bricked it’. Which obviously necessitates ‘some form of mistake fixing’ being implemented. Blizzard in my opinion went too far to adjust that.
As for the 3 options to reduce ‘abusing’ the system… which isn’t the main aspect that’s important here though (but definitely one): The first and second have been highly awaited and needed anyway, the third… yeah? Maybe? Can’t compare to the ‘modern’ D2, but it’s a really low bar then.
10 minutes isn’t long. If that’s long then a complete revision of how long people are expected to interact with the game is in dire dire need to be done.
I think the perception there is a bit skewed. LE has the most lenient respec of any game I’ve played in the genre long-term to date. Be it D4, Torchlight Infinite or PoE 1/2.
This genre is meant to be played for thousands of hours for heavily engaged people. Not 50.
Primarily because the ‘average joe’ doesn’t frequent any game forum. The ‘average joe’ consumes a game, nods after 20 hours and is out. H&S ARPGs aren’t created with them in mind, not even D3 or D4 are, and in the scene those players are defined as ‘casuals’ still. In PoE 1 people often say that ‘below 1k hours’ you don’t have much experience even. The time investment of the genre is simply insane.
Read above the reasonings for why that’s a senseless argument.
It’s not ‘some’ reasoning but very well explained even.
No… not necessarily.
But yes, it comes down to that + if it aligns with the initial vision of the game, or the ‘time revised’ vision of the game.
In my opinion it does not properly fit with it, but we’ll see if ‘at least’ the numbers work in favor of it.
Nonetheless it’s basically slapping the people which have supported the game for the entirety of the development phase up until now, because it goes very much counter to all that’s been showcased up to date.
Look at the retention rate of D3 and D4. How long the common invested player tends to play the game.
Then look at the retention rate of PoE 1 and PoE 2. How long the common invested player tend to play the game.
There’s your proof then.
40-100 hours for an experienced D3 player.
200-500 hours for an experienced PoE 1 player.
Per cycle/league/whatever.
D3 has higher player numbers of overall and hence regularly returning players. PoE has higher numbers of stable players not ever stopping to play the game.
Also the overall time invested into the game is quite substantially higher in PoE where 1k+ is deemed ‘not a beginner anymore’ barely. That’s kinda telling on the situation there for retention.
I’m 100% in line with this.
Yes, it’s great for more casual people, those without much time.
It’s not good for the others.
And that’s what it boils down to. Does LE want to be a long-term game people play ‘endlessly’ or does it want to be a game where people regularly return to ‘for a little bit’?
I mean… I could now say ‘told you so’ but I won’t…
Those systems usually are always ‘working’ ‘as is’ but longevity wise there needs to be more thinking ahead or revising existing stuff. I would simply like EHG to think ‘into the future’ a bit more. Their implementations seems kinda… short-lived nowadays.
So my doubts are standing until that quite major inequality is fixed. Because 500k is nothing. I’ve paid for a few expensive items and would’ve been able to respec 20 times still that way, and with a focus on respeccing I could do it hundreds of times since I’m MG. In the same time I could’ve likely done it… 10 times total in CoF solely from gold drops.
Plainly spoken… I find it still utterly awful (in my own words).
Not at all for it. And the details have only hardened my stance there since it showcases the flaws and how it’ll affect people differently while not providing any meaningful barrier for longer-term players at all.
That’s the whole point… the system needs to be catered with CoF in mind, so you can’t say ‘go MG instead’.
That would completely destroy the notion of ‘pick your Faction based on your liked playstyle’ and instead shift it further towards ‘only this one faction is viable to play’. Which is to be avoided.
EHG wanted to get their game in a position where both are viable… so I damn well expect them to do everything to keep it that way, it’s a extra hurdle of their own making.
So, those 500k are awful for CoF and neglecible for MG. Not quite a good state, wouldn’t you say so either?
I actually disagree with this. The main problem mastery respec is aiming to fix is new players that try a mastery and it’s not working for them. They don’t like it or the build is simply weak.
Gating respec behind a boss fight kinda defeats the purpose.
Do the different classes have different stories? I can’t say I’ve ever noticed that. The story seems exactly the same no matter what you choose to play as, so gender choice has no impact on that.
I’ve rather deemed it as ‘specific re-spec content which forces a player to invest time into it without being able to avoid to do so’ rather then the boss-fight of the dungeon itself.
In PoE 1 and 2? Yes!
In LE? I don’t know actually, wouldn’t have realized
Sure, even in PoE 1 and 2 it’s not pushed in the foreground, but the amount of lore strewn around the world is staggering, in both games. And the class you play has a specific background from where they come and what exactly they’ve done to get into the position.
I know the one of the Witch the best. It’s not much but it fleshes out their character:
The Witch in Path of Exile 1 is - like all the characters - coming from Oriath, from where they were Exiled from (Hence Path of Exiles). Thaumathurgy is forbidden there and people tried to kill her out of fear of her powers (since forbidden). In retaliation she’s killed them and was exiled.
The voicelines also showcase she’s a sociopath, but acted with reasoning only: ‘They were right to fear me. If only they had listened to their cowardice. Had they not taken my home with fire, I would not have taken their children.’
Or: ‘I know that stench. Just like my sisters…upon the pyre.’
And several more.
Basically showcasing she’s been part of a coven and her sisters have been burned, she’s the sole survivor and hence has taken revenge on those causing it, which led her to be exiled.
Nearly every area or boss has a unique line for each single character, forming their backstory along the playthrough. That’s basically non-existent in any way in LE, your character is a ‘shapeless story blob’ like a individual immersive hero figure you’re taking over… but also set up like a active fleshed out character with a backstory. It’s just combining the worst of both segments.
But that, once again, defeats the purpose. As Mike said, what they want with the mastery respec is for the new players that aren’t enjoying their mastery to be able to switch, rather than simply quit.
Forcing them to invest time will result in the same thing (the player quitting) and is no different from not having respec and having to create a new character in the first place.
Yeah, which means a limited (1 for example) amount provided after choosing, for a potential respec… to ‘fix a mistake’.
But how often do you need to re-fix a mistake? If you can do that without repercussions then it’s basically ‘free’. Hindrance needs to be there in some way after the initial part, for good reason.
But if there really really need to be a non-limited way of respeccing then a time intensive content which can also be annoying or bothersome simply is viable. After the initial mess-up option has been exhausted.
Yes, but why is it narrowminded to say that? Is it narrowminded to say that anyone who finds Dark Souls/etc too difficult should play an easier game or something rather than demand (critically, severely & whatever) that the game be changed to suit their preferences? Should flightsims be changed to aRPGs because I prefer aRPGs to flightsims? Should we get rid of all low drop chance items because it “unfairly penalises” people who don’t have much time to play?
And how much would those rare axes have brought you as a CoF player? I don’t know how long it’d take to get 500k gold as CoF, but I’d imagine it’d be longer than 1-2 echoes.
Unless, of course, the cost changed depending on which faction the character was in.
The same? He said he sold the inventory, so I’m assuming he meant the vendor (which is a waste of time, really, he probably got 1k gold for selling them).
In fact, CoF might make slightly more in that situation, because there’s a chance for double drops and upgrading to exalted, which would sell for more.
Depends on the stage of the Cycle for MG, if we would even say it’s 500k to be made.
Early on (first month) I would argue you can make 50 mil a day when you know what you’re doing with the market, in around 300 corruption. Afterwards? Substantially longer, but by then it doesn’t matter as much anymore anyway.
