Yeah really excited about this. Wont have to re-level different characters now if they’re the same class. For example I made a marksman this season, and marksman was kinda shit, so unfortunately that entire character was dead in the water despite being level 87. Now I’ll be able to make a bladedancer or falconer instead
Because it’s not a ‘improvement’ but a entire paradigm change. That’s a completely different topic.
Talking about ‘This system makes more sense long term then the other’ or ‘this boss needs adjustments to make it feel in line with the game overall’ and ‘the difficulty scaling there and there are off and those things would adjust that a bit’ is all fine and well.
But plainly spoken respec for mastery is similar to what ‘Star Wars Galaxies’ did. From one day to the other they simply ripped out their whole ‘get better with what you do’ system and instead created classes and levels. That’s just a completely different thing suddenly.
Sure, in LE there’s a simple reducation rather then exchange going on… but it’s the same direction as a baseline.
Yes, and that’s the fault of the buyer. It only becomes the fault of the developer when they play into impulse decisions, then it’s their own created fallout.
EHG didn’t do that though.
If I go and buy chocolate for easter from a new company and expect gelatine fillings since all my easter chocolate had gelatin fillings… then I don’t demand they change it to gelatine filled chocolate after the fact I bought it without informing myself what it even is.
It’s fine to have a different viewpoint. It’s not fine to demand your viewpoint has to be shared by everyone else though.
Big nono.
That’s a ok-ish example, but also not really fitting.
Input methods are not a choice solely for flavor, rather that’s secondary. They’re a medical aspect as well as a efficiency based one. Only afterwards the ‘I’m used to it’ one following up.
Since consoles use controllers primarily (as they were supposed to be played on a couch, no stable keyboard & mouse surface) there’s simply a massive userbase available which doesn’t have to re-learn, which is a upside. But on PC the primary input method has always been keyboard & mouse of some kind since it’s already available and you don’t need another peripheral input device as an extra hence.
Depending on the genre a controller can be better, but that’s not the case for H&S, FPS or anything where you need to be fast rather adjust something gradually (usually vehicular control). It’s also the same thing as to why modern H&S games start to move into the WASD input method. It’s simply superior… but needs more work to create.
The biggest aspect for a controller besides a mouse is that a controller generally puts less stress on the wrists, hence avoiding RSI, also several nerve issues tend to not crop up.
FPS went from keyboard input to mouse because it simply was in every single way superior then before. Faster control, more precision. Early days when we hadn’t found out what the best solution for doing stuff was. Nobody sane would even consider a keyboard input method nowadays, that’s just the ‘But I’m used to it’ aspect.
Well… something’s new… get used to it, tough luck otherwise! Simply as that if it’s the only reason.
Mastery respec is not superior or inferior though. It’s a flavor based aspect. There is no argumentation basis around it in the first place. The only argumentation basis existing is ‘That’s what we’ve been provided and enjoy, and now our flavor gets removed’.
Sure, but not demand to change it. You can say what you like all day long. And at times there’ll be a lot of people agreeing even… and a lot disagreeing at the same time.
If everyone (or nearly everyone) agrees to a change then it gets done. If that’s not the case… better leave that shit alone 
First of all… seasonal content (the classic one which gets shifted out again) as a concept itself is a despicable atrocity. Early access on the other hand (the ‘modern’ seasonal content often) is acceptable. No FOMO attached is the difference.
As for the time aspect:
You don’t demand a game to be made shorter if it’s too long for your personal enjoyment. You pick something else instead.
It’s like going into a Pen&Paper campaign which will last for likely months and then demand of the GM to ‘shorten it to 2 weeks because nobody got time for that shit!’.
You instead look at it, think about if you will have fun and can afford the commitment and after properly evaluating that you choose.
7 Times.
LE I got bored the second time.
Sure it gets less enjoyable as the ‘vanity’ leaves it. The core gameplay is solid though. That’s my point there.
If a campaign highlights the core gameplay better then a campaign is replayable. If it does not then it causes the PoE 1 and LE issue, which both are really annoying campaign. Torchlight Infinite Campaign for example is not really annoying because you get the core gameplay from start to finish. Just a bit slower since you haven’t built up your character. Any alternative leveling way would produce the same there though.
Then the option is only to make it intentionally less efficient since a perfect balancing isn’t possible, pushing people into one or the other.
So those absolutely not wanting to do the campaign can do it with the relevant downsides along the ride… but without the aspects of the campaign being a detriment anymore.
Mind you, they need only be minimally less efficient, not ‘You need thrice the time’ less That’s important to mention I imagine, would see quite a few weird posts otherwise not getting the core of the argument otherwise 
I find myself just disagreeing with 90% of everything you type lately. It’s like you’re a compass that points in exactly the opposite direction of where I think games should go.
so I’m guessing you think the same of me.
You say it all with conviction though, I’ll give you that.
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Just that the prevalent topic is one we disagree on heavily. That makes it 
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Oh boy… If there were only people here who would be 100% fine with LE we won’t be talking. Why is it on hand hand “Yeah there are niches within the niche for such players go there!” and on the other noone get’s the point that said people might also like LE basicly and bought the game and want it to more time efficent.
Again all I want to say is that I understand the feedback of people who want to have out of a game in a realistic time frame. I don’t think making LE faster or delivering even more shortcuts will be a good thin but to me it’s understandable.
Compared to the LE campaign it’s pure gold. I replayed it a lot but I still wait for weapons I realy like to play. Untill then the game by itself isn’t that intresting to me.
Yeah I could’ve stated this better. People want stuff to be “improved” to suit them better… look at all those left handed people booo! (just kidding ^^).
Yeah but after someone bought something it is fair play to talk about, give feedback about it and to mage suggestions. This works for every industry but for gaming.
Why not? Worked just fine with some urgent and critical and whatever blabla. People who demanded mastery respeccs back i nthe day got what they demanded back then with the next season.
To me people demanding xyz in a video game is just feedback given by people who are unable to write feedback in a pleasent way. non the less if there is a big enough demand LE caves in as shown.
Let’s make on example here. D4’s battle pass each season is in a rather good place. It can be done in a week by blaster or over a season by a weekend player. So there is no FOMO.
Again if you love the game it’s fair game to suggest to make it less time consuming.
BT I feel this discussion is going nowhere . Let’s just wait for people who have actual problems instead of talking about “what if…” scenarios.
No, we get that point. What were saying is that’s a bad point to make.
Let’s play more “Hypothetical!”
Let’s say Last Epoch adding Mastery Respec to make it more time efficient brings in 10,000 new players who prefer more time efficient games. But simultaneously drives away 7,000 players who prefer the more restricted and “traditional” ARPG style. LE gains 3,000 players. (Edit: I thought about it after posting, but another point to consider is player retention. A player who is so focused on time efficency is more likely to not be playing the game after 1,000 hours and player retention is just a important to revenue as sales). That’s awesome, good for them. Now let’s say they add in Build Loadouts like in D3 to, again, improve quality of life and make it more time efficient. This change brings in 2,000 new players who love D3 and want more games like D3, but drives away 8,000 existing players and prevents another 5,000 from picking the game up because they hate D3 and wish LE remained it’s own type of game. Now LE has lost more players than it gained by either change.
This is obviously a drastic example written to be in the favor of my argument and it could equally go the exact opposite way with the changes bringing in drastically more players than it loses. But it’s important to be aware that every change you make (or don’t make) will drive players away and the players driven away can outweigh any players brought in by the change. This is the point we’ve been trying to make.
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I don’t argue that changes need to be made in a smart way to improve player numbers and retention. EHG has shown some promise to come up with neat solutions to problems that work more or less.
What I personaly would love is a long lasting endgame cycle with an intention of replayability while weekend players aren’t fubar. Mostly season mechanics that are only aimed at endgame are things not many people encounter because they stroll arround in the time they have.
I don’t talk about the people who have so little time they even struggle to get a max level toon in D3. I take a guess on former experiences and numbers postet by different H&S titles in the past… most people don’t even have max level toons in games like PoE or LE in this regard.
There needs something to be done to involve as many people as possible even in the early stages of the game to jook them. Right now we have sadly, in my oppinion, the worst campaign part of any H&S game I ever played. Heck even Mu Legends had a better basic campaign then LE and that was already rather boring.
Sure there are games like Grim Dawn for people who have little time that are approachable because there is no seasonal stuff that “forces” people to start over again and again just to play the new hot stuff. But this brings me back to the point that people might love game X and get frustrated by the design choices made.
I personaly don’t care if I need 100 or 1000 hours for something because if I want to I can put in time because I have close to 0 other things to do and I like gaming. Objectivly I wish for better ways to incorporate all possible kinds of players in a game where you can choose how much meat you want to chew from the bone.
It’s like the new season theme. If I understood this correctly it starts out big time in monoliths and for myself that’s to little to late.
I don’t want EHG to do a 180° and become the next diablo I just want them to use their creativity shown in the past to appeal to more players without alienating fans of the game. That’s a very hard thing to do and most likely it won’t happen but I still have some hope left EHG is adressing this sooner or later.
For example finishing the campaign would be a neat thing to do. Blasters most likely wont care about it either way but people who tend to play less get some kind of enjoyment out of this.
Sure they will never please everyone but there is more then enough wiggle room to cater to a tad bit more of the possible audience.
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Is it in a limited timeframe and has rewards which will be phased out likely forever afterwards?
Yes? FOMO
No? No FOMO
It’s surprising how rare games nowadays are that don’t have FOMO elements at least. I mean… even Helldivers 2 (And that’s a fantastic game!) shifts their content around in the store and causes hence… FOMO.
Why would you do that though?
I mean… it kinda is… ‘Maaan… I love that game. There’s 1000 hours of content in it and I can’t wait to come back to experience more of it! Already got 20 done… just wish it were less greatness I can enjoy. Guess I’ll ask them to make it shorter!’
It’s really weird actually. You like it… but you want less of it?
Yes, and that’s said on the point this way.
Exactly, and that’s usually the breaking point when the numbers game doesn’t make complete sense anymore. Less is more at times… and more can be less.
Not only retention itself but also the likelyhood of engagement between the player types is different. A player willing to spent generally more time is also more likely to give feedback or recommend the game to other people then someone who comes and goes in moments… same with spending behaviour. More open wallets.
No one is disputing that. This whole argument is about people wanting D4 things in LE (or PoE players wanting more PoE things, equally as valid) and the equally valid response “If it’s so important to you, this game might not be for you”.
For example, something that gets requested often is for class locked drops, like in D4. That goes entirely against LE design and identity, though (at least for now). So if someone says they will leave if they don’t have class locked drops, I might answer that.
We go back to Dark Souls and difficulty. Is it normal that some players haunt their forums asking for a difficulty option? Sure. I personally don’t get it (it’s not a game for me, so I just avoid it) but I know there are.
But if difficulty options are so important to them, then Dark Souls isn’t a game for them.
It’s both valid to ask for these things as it is to be answered that the game is not targetted for them.
Maybe it’s easier if we go to an extreme:
You love CS2. You don’t enjoy isometric hack n’ slash games. You come to the forum asking for a first person shooter option. It’s perfectly valid to say this is not a game for them.
I’m not disputing that players can ask for stuff. Even unrealistic stuff. But they shouldn’t take it the wrong way when they get answered that the game isn’t for them.
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Let’s take an easy example. For whatever unkown reason I like Hero Siege. You can play the base game without the big bad bosses without feeling you miss something. Good for casuals. Then you can do some activitys like uber bosses and harder content. Good for this mid level players who want to minmax more and play harder content. Above this is a leaderboard mechanic for the maniacs who want to show they have the biggest Eschlong out there.
While the game for sure isn’t for everyone even remotly the system in place isn’t so bad an caters to a broad spectrum of players without screwing anyone over.
So I would do that as said in a reasonable way with a tad bit of brain involved. I still wouldn’t please everyone but noone lost something by the example made on top.
If I compare this to another subjective example of playing LE. Campaign… hell noo I’m already bored thinking about it. Normal Monos…fml this is equaly boring… Emp monos under 300C yawn… oh wait finaly something endgamey on the way to push for more corruption.
If I get this feeling again and again and again my experience is flawed and some parts of the game feel like a waste of time. That’s highly subjective and I know people who say everything after the story part is a waste of time and kind of people inbetween.
As I siad I don’t care but then again there is a lot of stuff i like my 30+ year old Lagavulin for example. Still I use it rarely so every time I open the bottle it’s a feast and I don’t die from alcohol poisoning. When it comes to gaming I love Borderlands 2 for example and since it is released I played it a lot and replay it every now and then. While I love the game I don’t stuck to it 24/7 and even I have no time to do so.
On top of it more time invest != something is good or realy outstanding.
Some of this stuff already happened with the ease of respeccing. I guess we aren’t far from an arsenal system too and I personly couldn’t care less about said systems. The thing that worries me most is that EHG caves in and their explenations why don’t make that much sense.
That wasn’t a topic for a long while now or did I miss that? I had a lot of more fun things to do then to read forums these days .
I asked for a harder difficulty in DS 1 and they didn’t liked that either.
Game has been in a lull, so there haven’t been many requests overall. But there were a few when 1.1 dropped and even after the event. Not that many, but it was just an example.
Sure. All valid.
I honestly don’t know what the other people are replying to, but all my arguments were because you were saying that “Maybe this game isn’t for you” is a bad argument.
And it can be, in some cases. If someone asks for a reasonable thing (like shard autopickup) and gets answered that, then it’s a dumb thing to say. But if someone asks to change the game identity, then it’s not.
In previous discussions about mastery respec I’ve often said something to the effect of “If mastery respec is such a big deal to you, then LE might not be a game for you. Much like if it ever changes and mastery respec becomes a thing, then LE might not be a game for me anymore”. And both are fine. I have no issues with being told that on an identity-defining feature.
Yes, exactly, you’re actively making my point there even
If you open your bottle and it stays half-full after a year you don’t go and say ‘Ah damn… I wish they would only produce half-sized bottles so it would be empty by now!’
That’s kinda what’s asked for.
Yes I understand that completely and we are already beating a dead horse . The identify-defining stuff for you is another persons time. I’m so demanding that I want the best of both worlds where you are able to please more people and don’t exlude them because of time or if they are lefthanded or male or whatever.
EHG had a lot of space to rise and become and awesome game back in the day. Same when people, including me, got bad vibes and thought and told that the game is stale and that some things are treated badly. Still today when the cave ins begin and they worked 1 year to get from season 1 to season 2 I think EHG are the devs who could make this possible.
What I don’t want is to make the game easier or to add more shortcuts. Mastery respecc is stupid enough from my point of view.
Nope. They sell smaller bottles as well because there are people who like them. I said I want a big chunk of the game available to a big number or share of players while blasters still have their omegaendgame. Just reasonable content for everyone.
So people who have little time feel like they get somewhere and people who have a lot of time get nowhere because there is the next best thing arround the corner in fun and engaging content.
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Sure, I get that.
But imagine both costing the exact same.
Which would you buy?
It’s not like EHG reduces playtime overall needed and hence basically causing a hard limit for replay value and goes ‘Yep everyone, we did that, now here you go, get 10€ of your shelf price back!’.
Besides convenience for storage (physical object after all) a bottle size has the distinct price-tag attached to it. Actually the small amounts usually being disincentivized to buy by making it more expensive for the volume inside (more then package and transport cost would make up).
Doesn’t function when you take a product in mind which has no physical representation. You simply ‘enjoy it longer’ and that’s it.
It’s not like Mastery choice will actually cause you to ‘miss out’ on content, like… a specific entrance barrier which causes people to stumble over (Monolith to empowered Monolith with the Harbinger Boss would be such a possible case in a mild manner). It simply is ‘less’.
I don’t believe any of you posting in the last day have a concrete understanding of what anyone else is talking about. It’s all hand-wavy and hypothetical.
Analogies are the devil’s dad joke.
I think, sadly, that playing the character is only something that happens on the first playthrough of a new game. After that, you’re playing the build. You may be the type of person that can convince themselves that they are playing the character, but you know in your heart that the story is exactly the same.
Oh wow, I just learned something about myself; I hate campaign replays because the campaign is another character’s life. Ok, you can ignore all the above except for the part where I don’t think any of you understand what anyone else is talking about. Could be just me though.
I chuckled out loud. U R right!
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I think you’re confusing things. Character identity is just the sum total of your meaningful choices. It has nothing to do with the story. I don’t care about the story at all. I have never paid attention to it in LE, PoE, TLI or GD. But my character still had its identity.
For example, in D2 you’re usually playing the build. This is because respecs are limited (or were, it seems D2R is more lenient) so you won’t be changing builds much. That means your build choices are meaningful.
In LE you used to play the mastery because changing the build is easy. Your build choices aren’t meaningful because you can undo them in 10 minutes.
With a free mastery respec you’d be playing the class, because changing a mastery would be easy.
In all these examples you play the character. But the idenity (or lack of it) it has for you is dependant on which choices are meaningful and which can be undone relatively easily.
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Its not just about character identity. its about players identifying with builds/experiences of said character.
Necromancers suck to level up, dr3ad made a comment about this. he is happy now he can just level up as warlock.
But that means we are losing an identity point of necro, that leveling sucks. Dr3ad optimistically believes this means they need to work on necro leveling if everyone is playing warlock instead of necro in campaign. but I feel like its the opposite as a glass half empty person. Now instead the community and devs can just link to mastery swap “sorry you messed up a little, you can fix it though, you are supposed to level up as warlock then swap to necromancer at level X when you can get better skills and better items.”
I like that there is a uniform experience of “leveling as necro feels this way” its something anyone who is a necromancer regardless of level can speak about. it ties into builds being a progression. now you might just level builds as all one type, cause its just the most effective.
A huge part of these games is the discussion around the experience. SSF vs Trade? this is a discussion of experience. What items you found? or the item slam you hit? thats another really cool experience you can share. Not all of them are tied to class or character identity. But a huge part of the game as a medium is discussing and sharing your experiences. We are losing a bit of that medium.
And I guess thats okay because it will improve someone elses experience. I just think the better solution would have been so that leveling isnt some terrible experience everyone wants to avoid at all costs. Sounds like to me campaign/normal monos are just shit content and might as well be deleted if everyone just wants to skip them.
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I agree with most of what you said. This part I really disagree with though. If the campaign is a shallow and boring experience that most people want to skip then it means that the campaign failed to do what it’s supposed to: draw the player into the world of the game and the experience of the story.
That’s not to say the campaign is for everyone, which why alternatives (or cutscene skips) are so valuable in many games. But let’s use Monster Hunter Wilds, for every “this story sucks” post there’s another “I really enjoyed this story” post and inside both threads are comments like “imagine not skipping all the cutscenes and dialogue.”
I do beleive it’s somewhat weighted towards people disliking the story rather than liking it, but it’s far more balanced than Last Epoch.
EHG want to tell a story, they’ve spent thousands of hours hand crafting this world and the lore behind it, problem is that it’s just not fun to engage with for one reason or another. I followed D3s story once and then skipped everything on subsequent characters, conversely in Grim Dawn I always finding myself getting drawn into the world and the lore of it all because it’s just engaging to me.
I don’t think the solution is “just delete it.” but to find a way to really draw people who want to be interested in it (like me) in, while offering a way for people get through it without really engaging with the story.
LE has a really interesting world and I wish it was presented in a more engaging way. Not sure how that can be done, but I would hate to see the devs efforts wasted
Edit: thinking about it more, I think it’s because my character feels so disconnected from the story. I wasn’t invited to the council, I found the letter of someone who was. Sure I have the Epoch, but like… The story feels disconnected? Rahyeh is attacking, why? Now the Immortal Emperor or whatever is a threat so we gotta stop his undead. But wait! Yulia who you just met betrayed you to betray him. Aaaaaand we’re back to Rahyeh killing Heorot, guess we gotta get a spear to kill Rahyeh now and Lagon and Majasa need to infuse it with their Power like Heorot did. Oh no, Majasa was killed or corrupted(?) by her saintess with no real lead up to make it feel convincing, and suddenly Orobyss is the threat again. Haven’t heard his name since… What… Lv 20? And weren’t we trying to kill Rahyeh since he was the main threat since the prologue?
Each of these stories (Rahyeh’s betrayal, Orobyss, and the Immortal Empire) are all incredibly interesting on their own, but when I went from Rahyeh’s story to Orbyss to Immortal to Rahyeh to Orboyss without ever finishing any of the plot lines I’m just tired of trying to figure out what the hell is going on
I was mostly being nasty.
I agree, and that was my nasty snide comment, I think EHG rather then caving and doing a bandaid game rule change to “change mastery” which really is a “I dont wanna relevel another sentinel cause its soooooo boring” button, they should work on early game pacing.
Ive said for years at this point, gear progression in LE is ass. Not because you cant get the 4lp items, but funny enough because its way to easy to get “Good enough” items, and too much power comes from skill levels/passive points. Some builds hit 300c simply on their passives and skills alone. So anyone playing those builds is bored out of their mind till they hit 300c because the gearing means nothing before then. Their character is “Done” at level 80 when they have level 20 skills, and most of their passives. The final minmaxing will let them push past 300, but if they can kill abby, then like what is even left?
Right now the curve in last epoch is messed up. There is no reason for normal monos to exist. instead you should just have corruption as the sole difficulty mechanic and start you from 0. Empowered monos are just level 100, 100c areas. But the thing is, corruption already scales level. the normal monos can only get up to 50c if you max them out, but getting 50c raises the level of the areas. So in theory you can tweak the formula to make it linearly scale up to level 100 at 100c.
The campaign is just a tutorial/story dump which is fine, people dislike it because they dont like playing at a low power level, easy to fix that by tightning the curve or making skills feel better at a baseline
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