Agree that this is true. But my follow-on is that this is true of any activity that involves some form of financial reward. There are the things that ‘we’ do, and the things the ‘pros’ do.
Full disclosure, I have never gotten to 300c, I get bored after the first corruption pass (150c), it feels like work, I stop.
My participation in this thread is due to my surprise that I agree with the premise that having an artificial difficulty cap actually does increase the space of what could be called a good build. Further, I think that this would have the follow-on effect of reducing the dependency on streamers/guides. And, if that is true, It would make this more of a hobbyists activity than a pro activity.
And that raises all sorts of questions that I don’t know the answer to, chief being, is that actually good for the long-term health of this game?
Obviously. You could even go to an extreme and remove everything that isn’t the campaign and now every random set of skills is a good build. I don’t think it’s the correct way to go about it, though.
It’s not, really, in my opinion. It’s basically removing content for the sake of artificial balance, which isn’t really balanced anyway because some builds will still destroy content while some will barely do it. But both would be considered “good builds”.
I think this is just a discussion because of a lack of more static endgame content. I feel like this system can work pretty well when you have 4-5 static difficulty endgame mechanics and then corruption scaling is left for when you’re done with that and just want to keep having fun, rather than having “finished” the game.
When that happens, then good builds will be the ones that can do the static content and the high corruption scaling will be a personal goal to achieve. Something like climbing the arena waves. You don’t really get anything from it, it’s just a challenge.
Personally I’m a bit torn on the topic. In my mind there isn’t really a “right” answer. Just a decision on what kind of game LE is going to be (and the answer is already there given by the devs).
Okay that is a lot of ambiguity so let me explain.
First: We all play games to have fun.
Second: Fun is subjective.
I personally have fun “beating” games. Regardless of genre. Which is also why I avoid most PvP games since they lead me down the rabbit hole of endless self-improvement to finally have fun at the game (i.e. winning).
So in LE I’m not interested in ladders but beating content. This includes Abby and uber-Abby. In Elden Ring this included Malenia and the DLC. In GD this includes all optional superbosses.
I also don’t think this notion of “beating the game is fun” or “winning in the game is fun” is something weird or rare. Most players derive a certain amount of fun from this I would suspect. of course this is not the only way I have fun with games. But it is a major part of it.
So introducing content that may be too hard for me personally to achieve reduces the fun I have with the game. This mostly takes the form of a frustrated rage quit after trying for a certain amount of time (haven’t tried uber Abby yet). For me this is mostly a week, maybe two weeks of trying. Compared to some of my friends I’m a masochist though so I guess the frustration tolerance before quitting is significant lower for most people. But if I manage to beat it? HELL YEAH.
So for me this comes down mostly to the discussion of difficulty. Is difficulty good or bad? Difficult to say. Personally I’m in the camp that values the “HELL YEAH” effect after overcoming a struggle. I love it. I just had that experience in No Rest for the Wicked and it’s just awesome. I must however say that that game is a lot more suited for really hard content just because it heavily leans into the “souls” aspects. But of course there are different kinds of difficulty that work differently. Like being theoretically able to make everything in PoE work as long as the knowledge and investment (money making is a skill) is there.
Still personally I prefer a difficult game over an easy one. Not because I like being part of the “toxic player community” that “gatekeeps” or some shit like that. No, I just have fun beating the hard part. And I tend to get bored after my build in PoE can explode the whole screen and the next one. It’s a short feels good but that is it then for me.
Is LE the right place for the kind of difficulty? The devs obviously think so else they would not have added uber Abby. And this is fine. It means it’s a game for players like me (probably dunno yet if uber Abby is too hard for me ). And less for players that want that sweet powerfantasy of being able to stomp absolutely everything with everything. They “just” get a few builds able to do that.
Though I do agree that being able to make “bad” things work and turn them into “good builds” is also a lot of fun. I do however think that those approaches are working against each other. Are they both achievable at the same time? Maybe. I haven’t really seen it yet, but GD does come close I think thanks to an endless scaling game mode, a time attack mode and many optional superbosses that are harder or easier for certain builds.
I also like static difficulty a lot more than endless scaling difficulty. It simply provides an endpoint to a build for me. I’m not interested in endless improvements that can only be achieved by playing a lifetime. but if there is something like Abby or uber abby I know a build is done when it can beat the “hardest boss”. Personally I see regular Abby as a benchmark for a good build and uber for an awesome trainwrecker build.
GD did this quite well I think. That game also has a endless scaling difficulty mode called Shattered Realms (SR). They changed it in the last patch but before that it was like this: You start at SR1 and clear. The difficulty increases from map to map. Every 5 “levels” you clear you gain the ability to use a waystone (craftable item) to start the SR from that point. So having cleared SR50 you could always start from SR50 again. Rewards heavily scaled up to SR65. SR75 was the last Waypoint and did not give any extra rewards. The loot drops only from chests that spawn after you decide to quit your run. It gives direct visual feedback on how well you did. Kinda like the Lightless Arbor dungeon reward with juiced chests. Everything after was for bragging rights. Though I think they also added Waypoints up to 120 or something for group players (some managed to clear 175 or something which is insane).
It’s not that much different from LE I think. Just that it is communicated a lot more clearly. Chests after SR65 did not increase, which made it very clear where the expected powerlevel is (i.e. being able to do SR65 for effective loot farming).
If they rework corruption a bit more like this, make the feedback more direct, like scaling the loot chest(s) at the end of an echo with corruption instead of regular drops during the map (or something like that). Add more of them, make them drop more. And after a certain point chests just do not increase anymore. What this point is supposed to be I don’t know. Personally I would like something around 600 or 700c.
Would limiting the corruption (and the rewards) this way increase the amount of perceived “good” builds? Well depends on personal definition, but I would suspect for most players yes it would. It would shift the perception to builds that are able to do the content that can give the most rewards. Tough 1000c is just a catchy and nice number.
Also - as seen in GD - the benchmark for what a good build is would only be extended to speed. Cleartimes for SR, times for Crucible, bosskills, etc. are the real differentiators in that game and if you take a look at the forums you will see most guides providing them because players are asking “can it do Gladiator Crucible in 4 minutes?” or “Can it do SR in under 6 minutes?” or “Can it do Superboss XY in under 2 minutes?”
You can’t run from this. This will always be the case. People will find ways to rate their builds. And there will always community members that push for some unreal standard regardless if it is difficulty or time as a benchmark for what makes a good build.
Not quite true on GD cause there you have also celestial to beat (some similar to uber) .
Build is good if can do Ravager, Calla and some may challenge even Crate.
Build need to complete all content available to to be redeem good.
Yes GD has a good balance and not so many OP builds but with enough gear you can complete all.
Sadly LE isn’t there yet ( waiting to see that AoD build that is competitive with rest of builds on bosses and clear) and this was just an example.
Right now its just a problem cause some builds/skills/items just suck, and you get trapped if you build around them. or they cant handle higher corruption because of some design flaw like the majority of non snap shotted minions.
Hell uber abberoth introduces a very interesting question, How do you cleanse minions? We see that either cleansing, or not standing in puddles is core to the abberoth fight, neither of which minions are all that good at doing or in the case of cleansing impossible a lot of the time. So the fight is just designed in a way that the majority of minion builds will auto fail it simply because they have no way to deal with the mechanics.
if every class/skill needs to balanced to the level of ES VK, then its cooked, thats going to be extremely boring for 99% of the content and seems like terrible balancing.
They need to nerf ubby, and nerf players and then maybe we can get some sort of progression. Cause right now some builds get a bit of gear and kill ubby, others get 4lp items and fail to do it because they just cant. And others still struggle just to farm empowered because they took bait nodes that either need to be buffed or deleted cause the path they promote is so weak its troll to pick it.
Ideally you should need to improve your character every step of the way as you move up the corruption and boss ladder, currently many builds are able to handle 300c in rare gear and no legendaries out of the gate. They are just that strong baseline. But at the same time, every step of the ladder should feel like you can do it. Currently the builds I played this patch it felt like I rolled over 300c and normal abby with very little work, then maybe had a decent grind to doing 1000c, and ubby is basically not real. there is no amount of grinding that would let my builds take him on, Id simply need to reroll to beat him. Which feels like he isnt providing a final step of content, but as a bait to try and trick you into grinding with no hope of ever actually winning.
That being said, if it can’t do SRXX in 6 minutes, it most likely can do it in 7 or 8.
GD is a well balanced game. Yes, many builds can’t face tank Ravager, and I never play builds that can’
LE is not. There difference between top tier and low tier is MASSIVE. We’re talking 100x and more.
However, LE isn’t finished, because the Corruption system has been called a placeholder by Devs.
So at this point it’s a “wait and see” game.
Anyway:
Happy to see that my ideas sparked such a nice disccusion.
I’d like to highlight this idea again:
I am very sure that this would breathe a lot of life into the game and make it more interesting.
I’d like to see a modern ARPG with this mechanic implemented.
It was implemented before, sort of (Diablo 1, where higher tier enemies - except for different color - usually had improved AI and/or extra attacks) but has been abandoned in favor of Diablo3’s model of “just stack up HP and damage infinitely”. Which I find a shame.
Maybe they said something along the lines of not being 100% happ with how corruption currently works or is perceived, but I don’t think they ever said its placeholder, because that sounds very much like they already had a idea in mind for it and havn’t done this until now.
The corruption system is in the game since Patch 0.8.2, after the Big Monolith overhaul in 0.7.9 and small Monolith Expansions at 0.8.1.
While infinite scaling always bring challenges and critique with them I don’t think they are as problematic as many people make them seem.
I am sure EHG will expand on the monolith a lot mroe and possibly makes corruption mroe exciting, but I don’t think they will fundamentally change corruption.
Hi! Which build(s) did you use to kill Uberroth? What’s the hardest part of the fight for you? What’s your preferred way of handling laser baits? Do you prefer to finish Phase 3 with the boss in the upper right corner so you can see his necrotic waves while you fight the harbinger, or do you prefer to keep him far away, bait the waves, then move up to the harbinger?
Bare in mind this is over 3 weeks old but I think your 1% call is a bit shit, this is a kill list for all classed who had killed uber way back then, there will be more now theres a lot of class diversity for that to be 1% and as mentioned thats 3 weeks ago!
Speaking of shit, I’m a shit player and can’t kill uber I couldnt even level a falconer with umbral high enough to do normal abby before I rage quit. My timerot is 99 and i can do normal abby easy but die on Uber - but not because the build can’t kill him in 1 minute but because IM JUST NOT THAT GOOD OF A PLAYER. I’ve accepted that even with the best builds I’m just stupid and run into the wrong shit, sit still too long, try to play catch with fireballs etc. There’s a lot of diversity and most builds shouldn’t be measured off a new super uber boss but normal abby. There are also lots of builds they need to bring up and make stronger (def shield throw) and I’m sure they will along with adding new 2H maces in 1.2 (hah) anyways thats my 2 cents. Shit player ouuutttt mic drop
Yeah, but look at that number disparity. There are far, far more kills with the top 3 classes simply because those classes are far, far better than everything beneath them. Anything below BM is basically an outlier at that point.
Yeah the point I was making is 1% of builds isn’t correct if you CAN beat the biggest dude with all those builds then the percentile mentioned is very incorrect and you can if you’re good enough beat him with a lot of classes. But you’re right there are definitely 4 builds doing it easier than others right now - Stormcrows, Timerot Jav, Umbral Falc and Erasing Strike but there are lots of others doing him fairly easily just not in that sub 1 minute bracket and that’s on the devs to correct, either bring down those builds to par or bring up everything else.
I’ve got an erasing strike VK and honestly watching it kill shit is funny - example you run to abberoth, click attack a few times, dive roll away (not that you need to cos VK can blind and also take ele dmg as void then less void making it super tanky with the best leech so you can tank anything) and then your echo stands there and hits him 5 or 6 more times doing 600k crits while you’re no where around, its stupid. Void Knight is definitely waaaaaay stronger than any other sentinel by a mile. Pally can be tank and do good damage and I think there’s another class… just can’t remember it because it’s really quite shit haha!
But yeah 1% nope, tons of kills, more and more as people gear up and learn the fight but yep. Definitely are stronger builds happens in every game. Hopefully they just bring up every other class that’s lacking and give them crazy damage multiplier skills in their trees and class skills like VK has for example. Would be amazing.
Wow, just wait a little, I am gonna kill him for you with hc ssf forge guard who died and now on sc. Well, dunno can I kill him actualy, coz I am not farmed at all. That was my post about, but I show you result of my try later.
I want to insert a new variable in the discussion: season rewards.
If the devs introduce season rewards they can shape the whole discussion. For example, if there are season rewards for pushing 300C and for killing Aberroth, then builds might be measured based on that, because most players will try to complete season rewards and call it a day. Uberabberoth and 1000 corruption would be optional and just something to test your limits. If this is the definition, the build variety is very good.
If EHG introduces season rewards and give rewards for 1000 corruption and killing Uber Aberroth, it will lead players to gravitate to 2-3 top builds. Many players will be frustrated and the perceived build variety aka meaning viability will be very bad.
That is why I asked if there is a precise drop rate for such things. What is that real huge difference in drops from your example lets say. Aka 600c to 1k c. Does that double my drop rate for the rarest items lets say or just increases it with 0.5 and people are being elitists about this not wanting to do 10 more echoes for the same item to drop at 600c instead of 1k c. Are my chances for double/triple t7 items double as well? I would love to see an actual sheet or something for that if it exists otherwise in my head at least it makes 0 sense to farm at 1k and defend that point. As I said unless you are some elitist about this and you are the person who tells people nothing is good unless you min max everything possible in the game from the settings to the way you should farm an echo web.
I can tell you this league all my best items have come from sub 300 - all my red rings lp included, all my Lp4 items, all my Lp3 - I know because I don’t really go over 500 unless it’s with my mate when we do 1000+ and there is no different in loot, no added chance in nem’s for better items or greater chance to hit lp on uniques. My red ring earlier was 100 again, all shades lp3 siphons are from 100 and my 4lp sigeons reprisal was also 100, I remember because it’s my fav item this league hug
If it’s requires by an echo like Uber abby then over 500 we go other wise absolutely no point. My Timerot Jav guy can run around a 500-700 without really attacking and stuff dies around him but I’d rather do it lower and quicker. People go higher than 1000 as a challenge and if they’re saying its for loot they’re crazy it’s just not true - from personal experience. PS I work for myself own my own business so I play about 8-10 hours most days. I’m still a shit player but I get a lot of time to see how things work
I’m actually in the middle there, as hard as it is to say I align a little bit with ABomb there.
It’s the dev’s task to ensure the ‘optimizing the fun out of it’ doesn’t happen. Because that’s the natural state of the brain. Your goal is to get somewhere, and to get there faster we try out best. And our best is to be as optimal as possible… and our brain sadly is not really good in making us enjoy that road, just getting us there.
Tat’s why things like ‘Let us respect freely and always!’ are asked so often. It’s a tedium which has value though, so the method to make it be perceived as less of such while upholding the function is the top-end solution.
You can’t blame a human for being a human. You don’t go into the pen of a hungry lion and then be surprised you get mauled to death either
It’s more because your arguments are utterly wild and more often then not baseless while you ignore around 80-90% of the things being said and potentially starting a proper argument to return to the baseline like a broken record.
But well… you do you
And as hard as it is to agree once more… OP is right!
The perception of viable builds is inherently increased when more builds can reach the perceived end-point in a reliably manner. So 100% true.
The method is a bit wonky but it’s not something I can argue against.
Builds + content need to align.
So if builds are nearly through the bank underpowered for the content provided… then friggin yes it’s a option! A dumb one… but one solving the issue. Worst possible solution and actively detrimental but solving it nonetheless.
So what’s the working solutions? Distinct showcases of limits. Reworks of balance. Broadening of content to alleviate the ‘repetitive timeframe’ in-between those places.
If less content is there people which are quick complain about too little content.
If you provide content in the friggin middle of core progression then players will complain about being unable to reach it.
If you make things take simply longer then people say it’s a ‘chore’ or a ‘slog’.
If you align every bit of content though with your progression to neither be piss-easy nor overwhelmingly tedious and ensure it’s done from start to end in a fitting smoothly scaling manner? Then and only then you get people actually saying ‘I really enjoyed the game, I’m done, I can’t wait for more to come!’ and be fine with that. Sure, you’ll always get complaints… but the sheer volume of that is telling enough.
And that’s what’s direly needed.
LE is a social game at heart, otherwise it would only be a SP game and not a live-service one. Even if you play solo the community aspect is available for a reason. Making a live-service game without it being a major aspect is basically collapsing a house for demolition while you’re in it… you likely will get buried and for good reason too.
So since it’s a live-service game the comparison to other people playing it as well is a big aspect, which it generally is on MP games of any kind. Hence distinct lines to compare yourself are to be upheld as often as possible.
Oh, you’re 100% right, but you’re tackling the issue a bit from an awkward angle.
What people mostly perceive as ‘build variety’ is actually not ‘you can make something and run content’ but instead ‘you can make something and reach the perceived content top-end’. And here the issue begins, and that’s completely EHGs fault with their design methodology and lack of providing clear-cut lines of content change.
It’s 100% a perception issue, but perception can be adjusted by design, and is to be adjusted even not only ‘can’. For example… after beating Aberroth the first time? Roll credits! Skipable, but… ‘you’re done, congratulations! Game’s over, enjoy everything beyond!’… is a ridiculously powerful method to reign in expectations.
Same with clear-cut ending of content ‘Yes, here you are, nothing more to see’. Which is mostly used.
So the endless system is causing this issue of perception simply, and hence it needs something to reign expectations back in. Unless that’s there actually as wildly out of line ABomb is the cure argument upholds… because it doesn’t matter if we say 300… 500… 700 or 1k Corruption, it’s still a arbitrary un-reinforced line… when it should be majorly reinforced.
Nothing changes with that practically… but people suddenly are ‘fine’ with a build not getting to Uberroth… why? Because they can kill Aberroth, so they beat the game!
Currently Uberroth is ‘beating the game’, and not being able to achieve that? Oofff… feels crappy, doesn’t it?
Yes, I agree.
But you gotta take into consideration that it’s not the same for others. I’m on your side there… but learning to read ‘between the lines’ what people mean is kinda important too. The majority of people aren’t straight-forward thinking in the same measure as me or you.
You dont get more rare items at higher corruption, there is something about lp being better at higher corruption mentioned by the devs but they stress its VERY small at caps out.
All that happens at higher corruption is you have higher item rarity, so remember if you play without a filter and you enter monos and there is 1000 white items on the ground after kill a few packs? in higher corruption these just become better quality items instead. So you are not getting more red rings because you have a better chance at red ring, its still a 99% reroll or whatever, instead you just simply drop more uniques overall so get more chances at one happening to be red ring.
Triple/double exalted I think is just rng but we have nemesis for that now.
The big one is favor gain. Favor gain is iirc based on experience gain, so higher exp per hour = more favor per hour. So as long as your speed isnt getting hurt by going higher, higher is always better. more favor means more targeted items in CoF and more trading in MG. So favor drives the end game item hunt heavily.
But are people being elitist? perhaps a bit. Ive certainly felt fine farming at 300c, if your build farms fast, it hardly matters what corruption you farm at if its atleast above 200c.
But I speak from a CoF lens, Ive never played MG. but in CoF because there is no items really locked behind 600c, there is no reason to go there. You can get omnis and nihils etc all at 300c and normal abby etc.
Yes & that’s why you’re more likely to get uniques so you’re more likely to get the higher rarity uniques & uniques with higher LP ('cause you’ve got more rolls of the dice).
Exactly, you’re getting more higher rarity items. What you’ve just said contradicts the first sentence:
Said rarer items can still drop at lower corruption, they’re just less likely at lower corruption which is something the OP doesn’t seem to understand. If he’d couched it as "you’re unlikely to see rare uniques at “low” corruption, that’s fair, because it’s true, but I’m not sure how well he understands statistics (& TBF, I never liked statistics either).
Yes, though double exalted items aren’t uncommon for CoF, even in normal monos they can drop.
Well yes your correct, but thats not really how peoples brains think, its not “well are my odds better at getting red ring at higher corruption?” yes. because you get more chances at the slot machine, and more pulls of the lever means you get closer to true odds so your odds are better.
But thats not the same as say boss uniques which literally have chances based on item rarity, so corruption directly increases odds.
). And less for players that want that sweet powerfantasy of being able to stomp absolutely everything with everything. They “just” get a few builds able to do that.