Why there is NO Build Diversity

General
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What’s really cool about games like D2 is you can make so many builds that can do the highest difficulty. So the fun and replayability becomes making some cool new build to beat the game with. This is what is cool about ARPGs is the build creation and theorycrafting. Customize something that fits YOUR identity and have fun.

So in Last Epoch you want to use a set affix or try and create something cool? Maybe some niche item to build around? Nope not possible. Because those builds can’t even come close to being able to do the highest content.

The problem is and it’s been highlighted in other threads like The infinite scaling is the bane of modern ARPGs - #40 by Yuri_Yslin

When creating a build realistically 20 million Dps is the standard. If you are trying to make a build and it only does 5 million Dps, then you are trying desperately to scale it’s pitiful damage which then leaves you squishy and 1 shot food.

The best option when creating a build is to take one that does 50 million Dps and then scaling back it’s damage and taking T7 hyrbid health and other affixes, Red rings so you are tanky while still having acceptable Dps of over 20 million. That way you can enjoy the end game content.

  • What does this mean? No build diversity. You can’t just come up with some cool idea and run with it because the infinite ceiling and insane power you need to slay these enemies.

Furthermore with additions of Uber Abberoth and those items. Well you now need a build that can kill Uber Abberoth and utilize those items. You are going to want to play a build that can use double Red Ring, Immortal vise, Shattered worlds and have access too health/ward while still maintaining the bare minimum 20 million Dps.

What’s worse is the Meta builds that can snap shot 100 million Dps then switch to Tank set ups. Which just makes players feel like they are a fool if they don’t utilize these items or strategy.

I really hope there is no more Uber content honestly. I really hope they get rid of infinite corruption scaling. (it was a neat idea on paper but it doesn’t work and we have seen how it doesn’t work)

Just cap corruption at 500 and create a goal for any build to complete that content. Don’t require them to wear Red rings, Armor mitigation applies to Dot or any of that. Just let players explore Last Epoch and create some niche MEME build that is capable of doing the End Game and highest difficulty. That’s where the fun is. Farming End game with something you made up instead of going to Maxroll and being required to run the META S++ 50 million Dps Tank build.

  • It would be a lot cooler if a modern ARPG could just capture what makes D2 till this day the best ARPG of all time. Where each season it’s about playing 100’s of builds because 100’s of builds can beat the game. Instead Last Epoch and modern ARPGs is about META and what 5 META builds will shine each season. It’s boring.
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I just don’t understand this attitude.
I find LE to have plenty of build diversity… an actual metric ton. Why? Because I don’t judge a succesful build based on it being able to kill Uber Aberroth. I judge a successful build based on how much fun I can have with it… and if there’s a cap to how far you can take that build then fine… that’s just the cap that build has. Who cares about going to the max?

I find the kind of attitude presented by the OP as detremental to the whole ARPG genre. If a build is only viable by doing the ultimate content in a game then Every Game will have problems with build diversity. Yes, even the fabled POE1 can’t deal with such demands. What a toxic way to see gaming… either win it all or the whole thing sucks? Bah.

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Beating Uberoth in last epoch is like beating the feared in PoE, you aren’t doing it without the top 1% of builds.

Almost every build can beat normal aberroth, who is typically where most players stop.

You are complaining that it isn’t possible to beat the literal hardest boss in the game with literally any build.

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Players who start playing or are playing want to have a build be able to do the highest content. No one says hey let me play this terrible build and not get anywhere.

This game is marketed by content creators that ship builds that can do 1,000 corruption and kill Uber Abby. That is the “Standard”. Players who look up builds want to use build capable of doing 1,000c and getting into the End game.

There is a diconnect between the players/content creators and Devs. The content creators are only marketing builds that players will have a good time playing which are builds capable of 1,000c. The disconnect is anyone who says a build not capable of that is okay which is the stand point of the Devs.

The solution is to be on the same page where the End Game is the capped 500 corruption and now the Devs balance around making a plethora of builds capable of doing that end game.

  • The ceiling is too high and the floor is too low. We need to bring them together! I’m sorry 99% of ARPG players aren’t going to play bad builds!! This is a power fantasy game players are going to play builds that are powerful!!!

Then you don’t understand ARPG players.

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So the problem is the content creators, not the devs. Gotcha.

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No the problem is the Devs created a game that requires you to make builds capable of 1,000c where the game starts. They created this power creep in difficulty and only a handful of builds work.

The content creators aren’t to blame, they are only making builds players will have fun with which is a build capable of 1,000c. I’m sorry but if a build is struggling in 500c then the players abandon that build because it’s a failed build.

  • The answer is the Dev creating a game where the ceiling isn’t so high and you need 20-50 million Dps and 100k EHP for a build to feel good. You fix this by making content where 2-5 million Dps and 20k EHP feel good. This now opens up build diversity and different itemization.

Now if you cap corruption at 500c and you only need a few million Dps to do that content then Etterra is an open canvas for build creation where players can actually have fun creating a build that do the highest difficulty.

Hopefully now you understand.

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I just wish ARPGs would stop sticking to “only certain top 1% BEEG d*ck builds can kill [insert pinnacle boss here]” or “it’s a pinnacle boss, not all builds can kill it” mentality.

I get it, they’re supposed to be difficult. But I personally think “all builds being able to kill pinnacle boss” doesn’t automatically mean/translate to the pinnacle boss being “easy”.

I wish LE would do that. Give my 0.8.4 Marrow Shards and Spirit Thorns a chance to poke Aberroth’s butt to death with it!!!

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Oh I meant the content creators are responsible for this attitude.
Maxroll etc. making 1k corruption as the goal make it the standard in the community that follows them. That adjusts attitudes into this toxic mentality of not having fun until 1k corruption has been achieved… or as you said “where the game starts”. This is just silly.
If you can’t enjoy the game before reaching 1k corruption then it’s an attitude problem and apparently the brainwashing has been done by content creators.

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No the Devs are because they created an environment that promotes this attitude. If the Devs change the game design this attitude doesn’t exist. This is 100% a game design issue and why threads I linked above exist where infinite scaling if the bane of modern ARPGs.

This is why D2 is quite frankly a better game. It’s why it’s a timeless classic and players are playing it today. It’s a very simple formula for success that modern ARPGs just miss and it’s a real shame.

This is a Dev problem they have to solve for the players. Until then player retention won’t be as good as it can be and we won’t have build diversity.

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Exactly when content isn’t created that requires 20-50 million dps and EHP too the moon is when players actually have agency to have fun.

I much rather see Uber Abberoth have 10 times less HP and be a mechanical fight that is engaging with great mechanics and visuals. I’ll just stop there I have nothing good to say about the Abberoth fight.

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I mean I just dont care. Munchkin gamers can cry they will never be happy. All they wanna do is be broken and anything not broken “isnt real”

1000c or 500c feel exactly the same to me, but I play CoF so maybe thats why? All I know is 1000c didnt make me feel any cooler then farting around at 400c.

ubby is its own can of worms, as 1000c is literally 1/100th of the hp scaling of ubby. ubby has the same hp as a 24k corruption abomination lol. ubby is so poorly balanced its doing the opposite of creating a stretch goal. its basically not real content.

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Capping corruption at 500 won’t solve the problem, because there still will be people that compete, just differently. Instead of highest corruption there will be highest arena wave or faster uberoth kill and you will still see people comparing builds and saying “only 1% is worth playing” or “beat uberoth under 30s or it’s a worthless build” and so on. I see the problem (and that’s balance - surprise, surprise), but capping at 500 isn’t a solution.

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All I’m hearing is, that OP has a very drastically high expectation and there might not be enough builds that reach that expectation, which might or might not be true, I can’t tell, because I am not playing on that level and I don’t have any intention to ever do that.

I think LE has great build variety and I am talking in a 300-600c viable range that can chainfarm Aberroth and do everything else at ease.

Furthermore what LE does better than any other game is varations of builds, that look very simialr on the surface but play very different. With how the skill spec trees work there are a lot of skills that have multiple archetypes and options to play with. Compared to other ARPG’s where most skills only have 1, maybe 2 varations you can play them as.

But it all sounds like a mix of a) hyperbole and b) unrealistic expectations how the majority of people play and enjoy the game.

If that highest content is Uber Aberroth, yes maybe that is true, but he doesn’t offer anything other then min-maxing items.

Besides Uber Aberroth there really is no other “highest content” other than corruption pushing, which doesn’t change the content and regular Aberroth, which can be done by hundreds, if nto thousands of builds.

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It’s always been that way. Unless you’re one of the 1% sweatlords, your opinion doesn’t matter for anything.
And only 1k corruption and chain killing Uby builds are “viable”.

If you try to tell him that many (probably most) players play for fun and don’t actually care about the elite endgame content, he’ll just say you’re wrong, say the same things over and over and eventually block you because you’re not part of his sweatlord echo chamber (and I’m pretty sure he already blocked you at some point as well, just like he did with me, Llama and Kulze).

He makes this exact same post every single season and every single season he ignores the vast amount of players (almost all) that say that he’s wrong and they enjoy the game even without being able to reach what he defines as the minimum content, which is always the content only the 1% of the sweatlords do.

He’s a sweatlord and assumes everyone is a sweatlord as well or their opinion doesn’t matter and the game shouldn’t even cater to them.

There is a whole huge thread where he keeps saying that your opinion is wrong. If you play at 100c or 300c you can’t get the same things that you can get at 700-1000c. And that this is a fact (even though it clearly isn’t).

Mostly I just ignore him, although it’s sometimes fascinating seeing someone so deluded and self centered. If someone told me his skin is orange, I wouldn’t be surprised.

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:rofl:

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Lets break down this important sentence because this is where modern games fail.

Old games the players created the competition such as speed running. It was healthy because it is 100% the players choice to compete in such player created competition/challenges.

Modern games it’s not the players choice, the Devs are creating the competitive environment. In Last Epoch by having infinite scaling, higher rewards for pushing 1000c such as rarity, loot experience/favor. This removes the players choice because the design requires X build to play that game.

When you cap corruption at 500 you put the power back in the players hands to play how they want and create their own challenges. (which is healthy) Maybe it’s getting a Set build to 500, maybe it’s creating a thorns build and getting it too 500 etc. Now the players are creating the fun and have agency because there is a ceiling.

We have seen this over and over again where now the Devs have this crazy desire to create an Esport environment in their game design. Which ruins the game!! This is why old games whether it’s D2 or Old WoW were so good.

Look at WoW where there were normal and heroic dungeons. They weren’t hard but now you have Normal, Heroic, Mythic and Mythic + and you need to be able to do Mythic 15. Now you can’t make some meme build because it can’t complete the content because there is an infinite celing. Only a handful of builds are viable.

It is the solution, it’s up to the Devs to cap REWARDS and have a hard ceiling otherwise you only have a handful of viable builds which feels bad. Modern games force this Esport mentality on us and it’s 100% the Devs fault for creating this environment.

Again old games got it right and why people still play 20+ year old games. They are just better for a reason. The ceiling for rewards and difficulty is low and then the players have agency to create their own fun and competition.

This is just a Dev problem to fix so players can have agency again and build diversity.

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Just another person who does not know the difference between builds and viable builds. Also excuse you but 1k corruption is where the game starts? My guy really is living inside the game. I love it too but damn dude all your takes are bad.

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Quite a few builds can beat Feared in PoE1. This includes off-meta. I beat Feared with Infernal Blow and Sunder with just decent gear, for example.

Your comparison point should probably be Ubers. Specifically, Uber Maven/Sirus/Eater/Exarch, since they have more difficult health and damage checks (or in the case of Maven and Sirus, screen vomit checks). Even then, you can take mediocre builds to Uber Cortex/Shaper/Uber Elder and still do decently well. The build gap in Last Epoch is far, far greater than it is in PoE1 because every build can at least access the same defensive mechanics (spell suppression, damage conversion, fortify, various defensive skill gems like Molten Shell and Petrified Blood, etc.) and because there are so many modifiers that allow you to scale damage.

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To be fair, when you have aspirational content like Uber Abby, people will use it as the metric for a viable build. It’s especially true because it’s leaps and bounds ahead of anything else in the game in terms of difficulty, and because every build can speedclear regular echoes to some degree. The OP might come off as a bit of an ass, but he does speak to a trend in the current gaming market where developers create aspirational content that 1. Retains players for longer as they attempt to clear the content, and 2. Allows streamers and content creators to market the game as they stream themselves progging/clearing the Uber fight.

So long as Ubers and super high corruption exist, they will continue to be the benchmarks for ‘viable’ content - regardless of whether the majority of the playerbase is content mucking around in 300-600c. And even within that range, the gap between decent and good builds is very noticeable. A lot of skills lack good multipliers that are super far behind the ‘balanced’ skills.

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I agree and pointed that out in my post as well

But then again Uber Aberroth is nothing that is regular content, since it offer pure stat items that no build ever will need and is purely aspirational.

I also said on multiple occasions that I think Uber Aberrot his too much out of line compared to the rest of the game.

BUT

that doesn’t mean that there are no viable builds out there and LE has no build diversity.

The fact that a few build were outliers has always been the case in LE, this isn’t new with Uber Aberroth.

The issues that I have with the OP is, he always has been on this hill even before Uber Aberroth existed and he is compeltely using “viable” very very inflationary.

I just have great issues with people projecting their own subjective view onto a game and claim that it is “fact” and “objective”.

I played LE for multiple thousands of hours and I never ever had the feeling of low build diversity, ever. Even since the very beginning of EA with 0.7.0.

Just because a couple of handful builds are far beyond others doesn’t mean the rest available in the game suck and are unplayable.

Once you try to gauge builds with the absolute upper tier of performing builds you will narrow your own choices and diversity naturally. And I think in an ideal world there would be that many outliers and all builds will be closer together, but that is also unrealistic for the most part.

For the next 3 buidls that get nerfed and put more in line with others there will be the next 3 builds that completely fall out of line, as long as EHG keeps adding new and interesting stuff into the game. And it shouldn’t be any other way.

Otherwise they would need to stop adding new stuff and continously just balance the game, which would become stale.

OP always claimed “the real game” just starts at 1000c.
There is the 600-1000c range, which is most effective in terms of diminishing returns, but that doesn’t make everything else not viable. Also most builds can handle 600c if you put enough thought and effort into it.

Some builds have an easier time then others and some need some more gear than others, but that is ok. Again that doesn’t make them “not viable”.

I just really want to push against people treating the game too much from this “Top 1% perspective”. It is unhealthy and unnecessary for the most part from my PoV.

Especially when new players come to the game and ask:“Hey I am new what builds can I do” and then there are these type of people projecting their own narrative onto these new players. claiming there are only these few X builds that are worth playing.

While especially a new player will essentially unlimited amounts of builds available to them.