Why doesnt Black hole deal void damage?

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1

It feels odd that Black hole doesnt deal void damage.
The feel of the skill name and the interaction feels weird to me being cold damage.
Also thematicly and when you look at the skills portrait i felt like the skill would do void damage.

I know void damage shouldnt be shared to much into the base system of other classes.
The reasoning being to keep void knight unique/the best class to play void with.
It still feels weird though because normally in other games books and universes iam used that void does chaos damage (void damage in LE).

I would love to see an option for black hole to deal void damage.
Beside that i think a reskin of the portrait would make it more clear that the skill does cold damage.
Now i was really happy to play with this skill only to find out it doesnt do void damage :cold_face:

2

Mike can be quoted as saying: “we released Black Hole in a bit of a rush. . . [and found out] that our assumptions were wrong after”

Effectively, they were going for the whole “cold of space” feel, and disregarded the Scientifically-accurate accretion disk and compressive forces generating heat.

Aside from that, Void Damage is effectively an aspect of Entropy - Black Holes are the exact opposite, as they are a compression of Matter and Energy within space; given that, it makes some sense for the flavors of Black Hole to be Physical, Cold, and Fire damage.

Entropic-damage types should feel pretty self-contained: Void Being the aspect of Consumption, by which matter/energy are consumed and converted to be more useful to the consuming entity. (Related, Poison being the aspect of Time, by which we cannot reverse time to undo entropy, and Necrotic being the aspect of Decay, by which we cannot perfectly re-create an object without re-creating it’s place in time and exact materials from which it was created; sometimes referred to as the “once it’s broken, it can never be perfectly repaired” effect).

I can understand wanting more Void Damage from a game standpoint, but from Theme and Effect, I’ll argue it makes perfect sense where it’s at.

3

Iam not to sure about the cold part. Beside that black holes nowadays are often considered dark energy and fire. The part about it being cold is from older scientistics tests.
Iam not 100% sure but so far from the things i read they are not able to test whats in the middle beside gasses and masses which they most often call dark energy.

In the fantasy world they translated the dark energy into chaos instead (at least thats what i thought).
Long story short iam not to sure about the cold theme being accurate.

There are many articles and researches about it being dark energy
Are black holes the source of dark energy? – The Oxford Student. this is an example.

The real fact i think is that we just dont know enough to state which things it all contains (beside a few things they do know).

This one however states its cold and fire but others contradict it

what to believe?

4

Aye - the point being that most of that research was published after the Black Hole skill was a thing for Last Epoch. It does make the argument for “well, lets go flip this skill on it’s head, because the real-world decided we were wrong” a thing - but I’m not sure that’s a good enough reason to change your Fantasy Game.

When I really get down to it, (and a lot of this is opinion, so feel free to disagree with me) there are really three things that ‘deal damage’ in the real-world. Applications of Matter (kinetic energy transferring from entity to entity, via Gravity, Telekinesis, etc.), Energy (Potential Energy transfer, like Radiation, Conduction, etc), and Entropy (Applications of Time, Disintegration, and Consumption).

We can talk about the science behind what actually causes a Black Hole to harm objects and entities around it, but unless we’re thinking that the Black Hole itself is an application of the very last subpoint there, I don’t think it belongs in the Void Damage category - it’s not Hungry, it’s just Heavy. It’s Heavy enough that matter has gravity acting upon it beyond what most objects can take, and Heavy enough that Energy is disrupted around it, causing a point of Heat within a vast cold-spot in space, It might even be Heavy enough that Time gets a bit funky and stretches out (though that could be an argument for letting it Heal you, too…), but it’s not actively consuming things and converting them on purpose.

Again, most of this is opinion, and there’s a great deal of flexibility in Fantasy/SciFi genres for “what counts as The Void” - but in Last Epoch’s world, it’s a semi-sentient entity that Corrupts and Consumes worlds. By my own definition a Bacterial Infection could count as Void Damage - so I’m not trying to say there’s no room for improvement - but I’m of the opinion that Black Holes that Mages create aren’t a semi-sentient entity (not to say they never could be, just that they’re not, now…). If it helps, I always justify to myself that the Mage isn’t actually creating a true Black Hole - just opening a portal to/near one so that the Hole in Space is now affecting things in Eterra as well.

Changing where the Black Hole side of that portal is gives you a great deal of the flavor for changing Damage Types: Open in Inside the Event Horizon, and you deal Physical damage from the colocation of matter inside intense gravitational force; move part of that to the Accretion Disk, and you’re dealing Fire (addition of energy) damage as trapped energy is multi-reflecting off of the entities too close to your portal; shift a bit to the Vacuum Ring around the Black Hole, and you’ve got a portal into low-pressure low-mass space that does Cold (removal of energy) damage to things near it.

Again - this is all opinion; mine is no more correct than yours - just giving out some food-for-thought and justifying to myself why it works the way it does.

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5

Space itself can be cold, but to transfer temperature, matter must collide, and there are not so many particles in open space to collide with. Hard to interact with cold objects – almost no cold damage. Space suits even have cooling systems, because human body produces a lot of heat. There is a cool video, explaining misconceptions about temperature

Everything, that gets too close to the black hole, is lost forever. In that sense we can say, that it’s damage type is void, but only from the observer’s perspective. The falling object itself continues to exist. Supermassive black holes have it’s event horizon so far away from the center, some scientists even say, that a human can cross it and stay alive, before being torn by gravitational waves.
Black holes produces a lot of high energy particles/waves. Considering this, it does fire damage.
It is also attracts a lot of different objects, being close to it will cause collisions with them and inflict physical damage.
Black hole’s mass curves spacetime, altering time perception. Observer will never see an object crossing the event horizon because of that, it slows down and stretches infinitely as it gets closer to the border. I’m not sure, but someone crossing the event horizon will probably see all the remaining history of the universe. Kinda cool but also sad, thus emotional damage xD
From the The Void - Official Last Epoch Wiki void is simply a name for an alien purple substance. It’s not connected with the usual meaning of void, and black holes are not connected to it. From the mastery description, void knight “has taken part of the void inside themselves and uses it to devastate their foes”. So back hole definitely cannot do void damage, either fire or physical. For the mage fire is more appropriate, IMO

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It really shouldn’t be cold. Phys (tidal shears/spaghettification if it’s a small one) and fire (accretion disk) but not cold… And lots of slow/pull.

Space has no temperature.

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yeah i feel you i wasnt trying to hate on you or anything :slight_smile: thanks for your reply and vision.
I like hearing others thinking points around those kind of things.
It keeps me rethinking sometimes about certain things!

8

It doesnt pull… atleast according to this researcher who knows probably more about it than us :wink:

9

Well, space itself slides down into the black hole, but it’s equivalent to the black hole pulling. Especially to a layman (and I’ll not be the plone to pint out my degree at this point).

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Temperature

The more massive a black hole, the colder it is.

Stellar black holes are very cold: they have a temperature of nearly absolute zero – which is zero Kelvin, or −273.15 degrees Celsius.

Supermassive black holes are even colder.

But a black hole’s event horizon is incredibly hot. The gas being pulled rapidly into a black hole can reach millions of degrees.

This is what the researchers from canada say.
The funny thing though in the video is that she says black holes dont pull. They dont pull stars etc it seems (as they state), but up here they state it does pulls gas :smiley:
They also state that it does get cold. But hey i just taking notes. I dont know anything myself about the black holes beside the fantasy stuff :stuck_out_tongue:

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On the one hand they say:

Then 3 sentences later they say:

Bearing in mind that the event horizon is not a physical thing (and thus can’t have a temperature) but a region of space at which point the velocity required to escape the in-falling space and leave the vicnity of the black hole.

The next sentence is correct, however:

It’s the gas being pulled into the event horizon and being heated via friction with the rest of the in-falling matter that gets hot. Not the space it’s falling through

If there were no matter falling into the black hole then there would still be Hawking radiation being (effectively) emitted by the black hole & this radiation is inversely proportional to the mass of the hole (smaller black holes “emit” more and can thus be said to have a higher temperature).

What we call temperature is the amount of heat energy in a given amount of matter and space has no mass.

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appearing to the video you are incorrect. Btw your not having an discussion with things i made up. Its all from the link i send you and to be fair they are not just some researchers.
They are the the Canadian Space Agency (CSA).

You should watch the video, they explain why it actually has temperature.
Not only from them, you can find that info about black holes and cold/hot etc at multiple high standard resources/researches.

13

vacuum has no temperature

“space”, although you really have to be specific where, but let’s say interstellar space. is in fact filled with a very, very low density of (mostly hydrogen) atoms and so would have temperature. also you’re being bathed in the cosmic background radiation and that will warm you up :wink:

Here’s something very interesting. A region of space who’s temperature is lower than the Cosmic background radiation.

edit: black hole should do void damage. just because they seem void-y.

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Yes, but as i said, all of that stuff that has a temperature is physical stuff, atoms or, at a pinch, photons (and even then, photons dont have a temperature, they have energy (the units for measuring these two concepts are totally different, one is in Kelvin, the other is in joules or eV which is just a different multiplier for joules). Photons are emitted by things that have energy and if that’s kinetic energy ee call it temperature. Space (or spacetime if you want) can contain things that have energy (atoms, quantum fields) but it does not have energy in and of itself.

Space is the stage upon which everything happens, but it is not one of the actors.

Yeah, but that’s the temperature of the stuff in the region of space, not the space/spacetime itself.

They’re likely simplifying it. When they talk about a black hole having a temperature they’re referring to the effective temperature of the Hawking radiation emitted by it. Except its not actually being emitted by the black hole, the black hole is “simply” capturing 1 half of a pair of virtual particles (with which space is seething) while the other one flies off into the redt of the universe making the entire process look like the black hole has emitted a particle, from which you can the calculate a “temperature” as if it were a physical object (which it isn’t) using the amount of particles “emitted” in an amount of time and their energy. That’s why they say that black holes have temperature, when they don’t but it’s a simplification of what it looks like is happening.

Just like you dont get into quantum mechanics to explain how a billiard ball bounces off another one to a bunch of primary school students. Nor do you get into the details of stellar evolution and fusion when ralking to the same kids about the sun.

15

This is not what happens. For one thing, the black hole absorbed a particle so it should gain mass. That always bugged me and i never saw an explanation for it.

The actual, correct explanation is hard to follow IMO. Certainly i had a hard time following it. (i just watched it again. it IS hard to follow, it’s not just me. :laughing:)

But you are sufficiently nerdy (and i mean that in the best possible way!) and would enjoy it :wink:

p.s. i think that you are using space as as synonym for vacuum. i think of “space” as vacuum with stuff in it. you are absolutely right, only stuff has temperature, and temperature is completely equivalent to energy - doh no it’s not. it’s an indicator of energy).

16

Fantasy game anyone? Who cares about space wormeholes? After all LEs WH could do lightning dmg because they work differently then our regular ones who knows? If you want to make a game that uses science and physics we know today the game would be realy… boriing and not much fantasy would be left and it might even be called Scifi :smiley: .

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It is exactly what happens. The thing is, because the pair of particles is virtual, their combined mass is zero, they don’t become “real” until the black hole absorbs one at which point the un-sbsrobed one’s mass is positive (ie normal mass for a real particle) but because the combined mass for the pair is zero the one the black hole ate therefore must have had negative mass so the black hole looses mass. That’s how i think of it anyway.

PBS Space Time is one of my favourite channels, though their recent one on the Standard Model Lagrangian lost meadter a few mins…

I am. Space is shorter to type (on a phone) than spacetime. Spacetime is the thing that everything is embedded in, a vacuum is (mostly) empty spacetime.

Correct.

Edit: well, “exactly” was probably a poor choice but it’s a decent explanation for a non-degree level. Larger black holes appear colder than smaller ones because they have such a large event horizon that for particles to have a wavelength comparable to it would require a mahoosive particle which requires a mahoosive amount of energy so are very rare (due to the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle, if you want to borrow a lot of energy you cant have it for very long at all, smaller virtual particles can live for a longer time to be captured by a black hole, and there would be more of them).

Which is probably why they should just remove the skill, it stands out, in a bad way.

18

No it’s not. nyaa nyaa nyaa. It’s a paradigm for what happens but it is NOT exactly what happens.
But i’m not smart enough to explain it.

I’ll let you argue with this guy what seems to have a reasonable knowledge of astrophysics.

Here’s the good part from the article.

It’s not right, though, in a number of ways.

The problem is that the REAL explanation is quite complicated, there’s a reason it took a Hawking to devise it. Hence the particle/antiparticle paradigm.

19

Hence my edit…

Plus Forbes is just nasty.

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i do care but iam not like hey they cannot do whatever they want with it. I whas just wondering :wink: after it we went full nerd and off topic haha