Why are minions bad and how to fix them

As we all know, minions are right now in a bad spot (not as much as totems cause that would be entirely unplyable). I want to take a look at why is it that they are in a bad place and what to do about it.

To begin looking at the issues with minion we first have to separate minion builds into 2 types of playstyles. Active playstyles with non permament minions and Relaxed playstyles with permanent minions. You could make a case for hybrid but generally speaking people tend to go one way or another as hybrid has almost the same level of activity as active playstyles but they do less (or should at least) damage.

Non Permament Minion builds:

Who are they for? People who like active playstyles. Casting minions every time they encounter enemies or every couple mobs. They don’t differ much from other caster playstyles because they are quite active in how they work.

Right now, the most damage potential out of a minion build comes from Flame Wraiths scaling both fire and necrotic damage to insane levels and you play them like totems by making them stationary (funny how the minion is the new totem build). However here’s the problem, the damage is not enough and the reasons are two folded. First, is that they are close to approuching ok levels of damage, but the problem is that because they need to be significantly better than permament minions to justify the active playstyle, then you need to actually bump them up significantly because permanent minions also need a big damage bump. The solution here is simple, just increase the damage!

Second problem is mana issues. Active minion playstyle is not palatable if you summon 1 minion at a time. You obviously want to summon 6 wraiths at a time, the problem is, mana regen is bad and it’s impossible to scale properly because you can only raise it percentually but have no way to add flat manage regen to then make the percentual increases worth it.
On top of that it doesn’t makes sense that summoning more minions in once cast costs more mana. No other game does this and the reason is simple. If you are spending your points into getting more summons per cast, you are not spending those points making them do more damage or making them tankier. You already have a trade off and therefore there is no need for an added penalty to it. LE is the only game that does this to my knowledge (which is probably rather limited but still an indicator). To better showcase the issue, I have to spend 7 out of 20 points (more than 1/3) of my skill points in wraiths just to summon 6 of them and I still pay +270% of their mana cost which with the current system of manage regen is unreasonable.
To solve this we can go about it 2 ways. We need to have a way for mana regen to have a form of flat scaling to top of with percentual scaling just like life regen has or we need to remove the extra mana cost for summoning multiple wraiths. Ideally, both of things things would be done.

The third problem with non permanent minions is what skills do you use. Wraiths and drad shade for sure but after that you got nothing. There is literally no skill that applies to it. You can bring zombies to explode on the enemy, but now you don’t have an active playstyle, you have the playstyle of a MLG champion requiring ludicrous APM so that’s not a solution. You cannot add permanent minions because they will all degen thanks to the staff that is the only thing that even makes non permanent minions playable. There really aren’t any other skills appliable for the build and this is where what I’ve been saying before comes into view. We need passive skills that are like auras which you activate and they just give you some boon. Either that or an extremely large portion of the skills need to have triggers happening from other skills so that they can be used without needing to click in order to keep the APM within sane levels.

The 4th problem I already said before but I’ll elaborate, zombies are bad. Popcorn builds as they are known thanks to PoE are always notorious for being very RNG with their damage output. Minions sometimes don’t hit the target, they target wrong things, they take time to explode. In order to make them viable they need to deal significantly higher damage and they need to not degen life, they should also explode the moment they touch the target and they need to move much faster. This would at least make them decent enough to play.

Last be not least comes survivability. Summoners tend to have a bit more luck with not being attacked as often in maps though AoEs still get them easily and on boss fights it tends to be a case of perfectly avoiding any and all damage in most cases. This problem actually exists not just for summoners but for all classes where it needs a lot of layered defenses and in LE, many of the defenses are activated by building them in through combat. This would be ward gained or leech and so on. They are layers you gain by doing something, the problem is, you need to avoid certain stuff which means you need to move and a lot of the time you don’t have the time to even start building up the defenses before you die. This is to say, statid defenses should be far more powerful than they are. I’d say up to 200 corruption it’s should be quite possible to survive any 1 shot without layered defenses that requires build up.

Those where the problems with the non permament minions. Now here are the problems with the permament minions and this is actualy the primary focus even though there is less to talk about.

So who are they for? Quite simply, they are for the people who either want to play the game in a more casual form and don’t stress about having to use multiple skills at the same time, they can just focus on dodging and let the minions do their thing, they only need to ocasionally cast dread shade. It’s also a build for people who eiher play worse or they have a lot of difficulty (myself) dealing with multiple key presses at the same time or in a rotation.

So problem number 1 we face with this build is, minion die. It may not seem like a big problem to many of you but look at the target audience of permanent minion builds. The keyword here is Permanent, they are not supposed to be dying at all but they are dying to dread shade (more on that later) they are dying to enemy attacks and especially they just keep dying in boss fights. I am sure it’s not hard to see why people who want a relaxed playstyle, whether because they don’t feel like being overly active or because they can’t, are not having a good time with minions that require constant resummoning. They essencially become a playstyle worse than all others because they require even more click spamming and on top of that, downed minions do no damage and since you relly on a large number of them to have any semblance of damage, it takes a while to bring your damage back up and while you are doing it, more minions are dying.
What minions need is a sizable HP buff and make it so that their damage reduction is at least 80% from all sources. This will not escuse them from still needing a bit of extra HP on gear or the tree, especially the higher corruption you go, but it will help bring them to a state where they are not constantly dying.

Then we have damage issues. Frankly speaking, even with all the minions out which normally is skeleton archers + skeleton mages + golem to draw away some aggro, they still don’t deal anywhere nearly enough damage. They need a big damage boost to even be playable and this is not including the fact that they die and damage just goes down the drain. However simply increasing their damage is good enough if we assume that their dying problem gets taken care of as well.

Lastly we have the survivabillity problem that the non permanent minion build has. Survivability on summoners and in general most classes needs to be improved drastically.

And I saved one skill for last. That is dread shade. This skill used to be the go to (and still is) for all necromancers because it empowers your other minions, however it was massively nerfed under the disguise of a buff of making it no longer kill your minions. In fact they added a node on the tree that does stop degen but what we lost was a lot of damage buffs and to top that off, it was all a lie about it not killing minions. The reason for taking dread shade was 90% making minions always crit which requires you to make the degen be the everlasting poison which is not affected by the node that removes degen. Now if this sounds bad to you I have even worse news. For the permament minion build, all that changed was a massive damage nerf but for non permanent minions, it’s actually really bad to go for the auto crits due to the loss of a lot of added necrotic damage that is really good for the wraiths so we can avoid degen even though they are temporary minions so in their case it didn’t matter much to begin with, but the worst part is, there is so little to grab on the tree that improves the minions that anyone not spending the extra travel nodes to go after the crit are going to be left with points that literally have nowhere to be put. That is how bad dread shade has become. All build sstill use it because even though it’s bad, it’s not like we have anything better, but that doesn’t means the skill is good, just that we have no other options. What we need here is for the auto crit to no longer be subject to have degen and we need more nodes on the tree that we can invest into damage buffs.

Doing this will go a long way to fix the minions. There are still AI issues but those are far harder to tackle so this are the simple solution to at least make the skills good… Oh and one more thing. Please fix the lagoon boss fight. Minions have huge issues with pathing up to the top of the arena and moving there.

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This is a great point! It really feels like a lose lose situation, and puts summoners in a situation where your minions don’t have great survivability(especially for necros, no minion healing skills. At least primalist has options for minion sustain) and the ability to replenish your army faster with an increase in summoning numbers both detracts from your damage, and forces you to invest in affixes for mana regen, losing more damage potential!

I will say that I am still thoroughly enjoying LE’s minions over other arpgs. I love that I can make my minions unique to my build, not just the minion skill itself. But I would love to see some improvements you brought up in this post, would make for an even better experience.

One last note, not sure if this has been addressed yet or not, but Aura of Decay has the node “Absence of Life”, which heals “allies” around you for % missing hp. In Primalist skills, healing “allies” always includes minions/companions, but Aura of Decay does not heal minions with this node. If this is supposed to be the case for Absence of Life, it would make Necro minion survivability much much better.

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It could but I don’t think it would. The reason is that you need to be very close to your minions and therefore very close to where the majority of attacks are going in making you a target, especially for AoEs. Because you need to move around, whether for dodging or simply moving around I’m not sure how consistent it would be to keep the healing on them but I guess it depends on the area size. On top of that minions move and separate quite often making it hard.

In my opinion, the best way to handle minions is the one that Chronicon uses. All minions are automatically summoned with no mana cost once the skill is on the skill bar. When a minion dies it is resummoned automatically after 1 second, again this costs no mana. On top of that there is even an item that reduces up to 96% damage taken by your minions making literally invulnerable. What they then do to make minions have some active utillity is give the minions an active abillity that you can use, therefore you can be as passive or as active as you want.

Not saying that LE has to that direction, it’s not necessary at all. But their survivability and base damage as well as multiple number summoning needs to be addressed to make them viable.

They have abysmal AoE and damage as well as requiring investment away from damage to keep them alive at higher echoes. It could be fixed with numerical changes but I think the minions are just kinda boring in general in this game. I’d like to see them have more identity and inherent skills that they use instead of mostly just basic attacks. To give examples, the golems in PoE all have a unique skillset. The summons in Dungeon Fighter all use a variety of moves with cooldowns. Dread Shade is also just not a fun skill to use so I’d prefer it be either more powerful and niche so you aren’t obligated to use it or make it easier to keep up on all minions if it’s going to be a mandatory skill, though I think mandatory skill is a flawed design in the first place.

It would be idea if minions could be more distinct of course, but doing all of that takes a lot of time from their work which is why rather than asking for a whole revamp of the minions I’m only asking for them to be brought to a state where they are good to play.

As for the dread shade I also said the same thing in the past and the result was a huge nerf to it making it much worse and still keeping it as a mandatory skill. The issue isn’t so much with the skill itself (well it does have the issues I wrote on this post) but an issue with an overall lack of boosting skills. Almost no class has aura like skills and so on which means that we are incredibly deprived of options to pick from, making essencially all that we pick the only choices for the type of build we are doing.

Agreed on this one for sure. If you don’t invest in certain parts of their tree, all the minions are just basic attack bobs the whole time, which doesn’t feel great. I think adding a unique inherited ability, even if its simple, just to add flavor and break up the basic attack animation chain would be a nice QoL.

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It does, but because minions have much more hp than you do, their health bars would go up slower than yours would, and it’s a % of your missing HP, not theirs. At least, it always used to.

What if they had a scaling survivability buff (either hp or DR or something) based on the corruption of the zone you’re in? That way they would be easier to keep alive in higher corruption without being massively OP in lower corruption/normal monos & squishier minions would remain squishier than tankier minions.

What was that? I think I remember a change/nerf but not sure.

I can’t atest to all the nerfs as I don’t remember if the base bonus that dread shade gave just from the skill itself changed, but all the nodes that gave bonus were severely nerfed in power or entirely removed.

It was possible to invest 100% into nodes that increased damage (even without going after crit) and they were all giving higher bonus, now you cannot invest 100% into damage and in fact even if you fully invest into damage and AoE for the dread shade but don’t go after auto crits you will still run out nodes before you run out of points.

I can’t say exactly how nerfed it is, but I’d say they cut off at least 2/3 of it’s power.

These were the changes (Sands Of Majasa Update):

0.8.3 Patch Notes

Sands of Majasa, Patch 0.8.3 is coming 3.

Dread Shade

- Base Skill Changes

  • Dread Shade no longer grants 25% more damage (multiplicative with other modifiers).
  • Dread Shade now grants +10 necrotic damage to spells and attacks and 50% increased necrotic damage.

- Skill Tree Changes

  • Acolytes with Dread Shade specialized will receive a free respec for its tree.
  • Added a new node that limits you to one dread shade, but prevents it from draining the minion’s health (increases to minion health drain from the tree instead increase the damage it takes) and increases its duration to 30 seconds.
  • Added a new node that gives you a chance to summon a volatile zombie when a minion targeted with dread shade dies.
  • Added a new node that converts Dread Shade’s base buff from added and increased necrotic damage to poison chance and increased poison damage.
  • The Taunt from the Deadlock nodes now only lasts 4 seconds (from unlimited duration).
  • The Egoism node adds an 18 second cooldown (from 6 seconds).
  • All For One grants 60% more damage (from 100%).
  • Dying Coven grants 8% increased attack and cast speed (from 15%), but requires 1 point in Spectral Presence (from 2).
  • Martyrdom now grants 25 armour per Vitality (from 25 armour per intelligence) and requires 1 point in Wisdom of the Dead (from 2).
  • Doom Brand’s proc now deals 100% more damage and Doom brand requires 2 points in Flesh Harvest (from 1 point in Spectral Presence).
  • Lingering Doom only reduces health drain by 8% (from 10%), but now also adds 4 necrotic damage to spells and attacks and can have 4 points allocated (from 3).
  • Blind Fury only increases attack and cast speed by 40% (from 50%).
  • Doomed Wrath only grants 15% more damage (from 20%).
  • Congregation of Shades requires 2 points in Wisdom of the Dead (from 3) and now correctly states that it’s +1 maximum shade effect applies to the global shade limit, rather than specifically to Dread Shade.
  • Scorching Brand requires 3 points in Frenzied Phantom (from 4) and now correctly states that it gives Haste for as long as it remains on the target, rather than only for one second.
  • Pernicious Pact now requires 1 point in the new poison conversion node (from 3 points in Lingering Doom).
  • Grim Fate now requires 2 points in Dying Coven (from 2 points in Spectral Presence or 2 points in Dying Light).
  • Frenzied Phantom now requires 1 point in Congregation of Shades (from 2 in Wisdom of the Dead).
  • Dying Light now requires 1 point in Duskheart (from 2).
  • Bane of Death now requires 3 points in Grim Fate (from 4).

There was a overall damage nerf, but it was necessary. Dread Shade was absolutely OP. And it still is very good.

@Elhazzared:
They never changed the guaranteed crit node. It was always restricted to a single minion.

Minion survivability is a thing in bossfights. I always struggled with T4 Temporal Sanctum. Mono with around 200 corruption is doable with a perma melee minion build (Skeletons/Death Knights).

I’d recommend this video:

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Was it necessary though? Minions were not doing that great before, in fact minions were not good enough to play without dread shade with it’s massive bonus and auto-crits. Even then Minion builds just couldn’t go into as high corruption levels as other builds could so I’ll have to disagree with the nerfs being necessary.

And yes they never changed the guarenteed crit node, I didn’t say they did though I don’t understand what you mean restricted to a single minion, it affects all minions under dread shade.

Minion survivabillity is a thing in ALL maps because dread shade kills your minions. It is especially bad in boss fight and looking at that vid I can say that the only thing I probably never used was the anti crit ring. Regardless, even if crits are a problem they are still dying without being crit because bosses just do too much damage to them and the whole point of permanent minion builds is not having to resummon them.

No, it doesn’t. Only the minion you put the shade on is buffed to always crit. The other minions are not. And that node adds a 18s cooldown to dread shade, so you cannot apply it to several different minions.

As stated above, there never was autocrit for all minions. Always for 1 single minion (Abomination build I.e.).

You said it yourself in your OP, that there’s no way around dread shade. It’s a mandatory skill for every minion build on a necro, because not using it will gimp your build. And that’s true. So EHG nerfed it to make it seem less mandatory. This is the absolute right approach in that case. If now minion builds are too weak when using dread shade, there has to be a compensation, but it has to be outside of dread shade.

For me personally it’s still too much of a power boost within a single skill. But on the other hand, I really like that skill and hope it will not be nerfed to be useless.

What I also not agree with is you categorisation. There’s no need to run either permanent or non permanent minions only. You can run skeletons and mages and add zombies or wraiths to your builds. It works nicely. And Zombies also isn’t a bad skill. It’s the most fun skill for me on necro and a very powerful one.

If you try a Wraith build you propably don’t want to go the route to cast several wraiths at once. You can get a higher amount of wraiths when you maximise your cast speed and summon a single wraith at a time. Because this doesn’t add a cooldown to the summon wraiths skill and you can pump them out like a machine gun.

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I actually haven’t tested the crits on dread shade after the rework but you can be sure that dread shade used to affect all minions. I used to play Boardman’s ice minions build which uses that and as soon as dread shade is on, every single minion under it is criting 100% of the time, that’s why the build never bothered too much with building crit strike chance, only crit multiplier.

Also bear in mind that list is not comprehensive, it does not show all alterations done to dread shade because before even without investing into the crit you could spend at least some 16 nodes into pure damage scaling and 4 into AoE no problem and each of the nodes that did damage scaling was more powerful than the ones we have now. Right now you can invest 8 into AoE and 8 into damage scaling though 4 of those are the same node so that’s 12 points, add 4 if your build scales necrotic damage which you will if you are doing wraiths, otherwise you won’t and possible the thing that makes dread shade not decay. You still have 3 points left or 7 if you’re not scaling necrotic damage and if you’re not scaling necrotic damage that also makes the dread shade base effect worse since it does nearly nothing for your build.

Again it does. Even if the wording hasn’t changed, here’s the “old” boardman vid on ice minions and as you can see them hitting the dummies, every single attack crits.

It is probable that this hasn’t changed and that any minion affected by dread shade still always crits, but I am uncertain as I haven’t tested.

Now, as for dread shade being mandatory, it still is and it will always be. There reason is not because dread shade is OP, the reason is because we don’t have other options to it. Until you have other options, a skill that boosts your minions damage will ALWAYS be the best path to go for no matter what because you get to a point where simply having more minions won’t be more damage, more damage will be buffing what you already have.

In my categorisation I did say there is also hybrid types but generally they are not worth going for because the style of play ends up the same as non permanent minions but it’s not as powerful which means you take neither advantage of either of the playstyles.

Zombies may be a fun skill, but I will have to disagree on them being good. Simply put, the damage they cause is nowhere nearly good enough and it is inconsistent on to of that. If you like it, more power to you, but I’m talking about the viabillity of things here and zombies don’t really make up for a viable skill. Add them as an afterthought if you like them, but a build made around them as they are right now is not good though to be fair nothing is good right now but I still rate zombies as probably one of the worst.

You are correct on thw wraiths, but honestly, the click spam of wraiths makes it aggregious to play for me. Why do you think that most games when you havge a type of minion you need to constantly resummon and you are meant to have large numbers of them you get to summon several per cast? Because it’s horrible to summon it one by one so even though it has a cooldown and even though the cooldown is way too high, it’s still the only sane option to take in my opinion.

He literally explains “The minion you put the dread shade on gets the crit chance and all the others around get the aura buffs for damage and attack speed…”.

His minions always critting is propably because he has a lot of crit stuff anyways. With idols and minion affixes you can get a bunch of base crit that scales well with increased crit chance. (He explains in the item/idol section that he gets 100%crit with his setup from gear).

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Well, I’m telling you I played the build and I didn’t built a single item for crit chance and all of my minions crit on every single attack.

However I think we are getting stuck on minutia here.

Yeah. Discussing with you on any topic doesn’t make any sense.

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I know this might be feeding the flames. But I just have to set this straight:

@Elhazzared: This is you, right? Posted 9h ago.

This thread is showing that you don’t have any clue about the basics of minion builds and damage scaling.

That’s not an issue. Everybody has to start somewhere and everybody did. So did I at some point. But when I was a bloody noob, I did not write essays about how to fix stuff I had no clue about. I asked for advice and got it from people who know what they are talking about.

The problem is not being mistaken. The problem is that you pretend being a veteran player with lots of insight and knowledge and you present your opinion as facts with extreme confidence. This is influencing the opinion of new players that are confronted with your posts. You are misleading them.

You have good points in your OP, but theres also a lot of wrong stuff in it. You don’t have deep knowledge of minion damage scaling (as proven with your reddit post), you misinterpret skill mechanics (as proven in this topic) and seemingly have problems to build a proper character. This leads to your impression that I.e. summon Volatile zombies is a bad skill and Necros in general are weak and not able to do high level content.

The same issue you seem to have with crafting as shown in another post.

I highly recommend you accept the tips and advice of people and don’t act like a veteran player when there’s no base for it.

Be sure, I don’t want to be mean by calling you out here. But when I read your reddit post I was shocked by your lack of knowledge about minion damage scaling since you wrote this essay here on the forums acting like somebody that has 2k hours into playing Necro. This also puts all your responses to the crafting topic into a different light. I don’t think you have tested anything you pretend to know so much about.

So please stop misleading people and wasting other peoples time. There’s so much room for constructive feedback here in the LE community. Seize this opportunity instead of trolling.

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So, because there is one mechanic in the entire game which I am uncertain because no one does ailment minions ever in LE doesn’t means I don’t understand everything else. Without any kind of place where it says that minion damage scales ailments which the normal assumption would be it doesn’t. I was left wondering, so I asked. When i talk about something I do because I know how it works and when I don’t I ask as you noticed.

As for whether I’m a veteran player or not, whow cares? In the first place you don’t need a degree in rocket science to be able to look at mechanics and understand fundamental balance issues. In cases where numbers aren’t enough then you test it. None of this requires thousands of hours to qualify anyone to speak about anything.

Second, my posts do not mislead anyone, I haven’t said anything that was a lie yet, regardless of whether you agree with me or not. You are entitled to have a different opinion but I base what I say in fact and my experience with the game. Is your experience different, sure, but I don’t care about the experience of someone who is not a casual because from the very begining and as was stated multiple times, that is what is being put forward. It’s the casuals that matter the most because they are the largest part of the playerbase and last I checked, a multiplayer game is not particularly fun if there isn’t anyone playing (yes I realise multiplayer is not here yet but the whole point is that it will and things must be working well when it happens).

But since you like to talk about time played which again, matters not to anyone who can put 2 and 2 together assuming information is available and a few hours to test where needed. I have thousands of hours in PoE. I have almost 200 hours in LE, I have at least as much in grim dawn, I have probably over 100 in chronicon, I don’t even have the faintest idea of how many I have in D2. Anyone who’s been around ARPGs generally knows what he’s talking about.

And yes, zombies are pretty bad. They are not unplayable, they are not on the insanity levels of trying to play a totem build. But just because they are not absolute garbage tier doesn’t makes them good either. A good skill or rather a good build (which normally is build around a main skill) is one that when you compare to the absolute best build is no more than 10% weaker. minion in general are nowhere near that, in fact I’d say they are probably 40% to 50% weaker than the most powerful build you can make and that is going wraiths. Try going permanent minions and they are significantly weaker and go zombies and they are even weaker. What zombie have is that wil luck they might have ocasional bursts of damage because builds that work by exploding minions are very inconsistent.

Whether you mean to call me out or not, that’s exactly what you are doing and I believe it is ridiculous that your bar (or apparently so) for someone to be qualified to talk about something is playing that one specific thing for 2K+ hours. For one, the majority of people are not learning something new past the first 50 hours and that is assuming very little experience with ARPGs in general. I am sure someone with a few hundreds of hours in ARPGs would easily pick up almost everything in less than 25. Another funny thing, It wouldn’t even matter if I had 1 hour or 10k hours in LE and specificaly in necro because if I never tried a minion ailment build I’d never really look for that specific information because it’s less than 1% than what you need to know about minions.

Also you seem to be under the impression that I don’t accept advice. I do, but hear me out here. When someone tells me to do things that I literally have already done and I’ve very explicetly told them, I did that already, it doesn’t works. That’s not me refusing to accept advice.

Lastly, if you think my feedback is not constructive then that’s your problem. My feedback is objective, it’s based on facts, it’s based on tests and guess what, I’m not the only person saying minions right now are bad. However, I am one of the extremely few people who is actually saying why they are bad and offering possible solutions on how to fix them. Whether EHG choses to take the feedback to heart or not is up to them.

Damage scaling is pretty key/basic for aRPGs, if you doesn’t know how a thing works why are you making suggestions regarding balance & improvement. If someone doesn’t understand how a thing works (especially such a fundamental thing) then that’s good feedback that the game doesn’t explain it sufficiently well, which we kinda know & the devs are working on improving the character screen, but it’s not really cause to suggest sweeping damage/whatever changes to skills. If I had built a caster & put a load of melee modifiers on the gear due to not understanding how it worked (maybe I’m fresh from D3 where melee weapons are good for casters), would my suggestions that spells suck & need a massive damage buff be reasonable? No!

Hyperbole gets you nowhere. While minion ailment builds aren’t the most common, they can be some of the hardest hitting (on the dummy at least). Primalists are good for minion ailment builds.

True, but if you don’t understand one fundamental aspect of LE, what else are you not understanding?

Because the mechanics of how minion damage works is the same as how player damage works. This kind of basic knowledge of how things work should, but apparently isn’t, be in the in-game game guide.

Which is good, but you also have to take onboard the information that more knowledgeable people are trying to give you rather than just dismiss it out of hand because it doesn’t agree with your pre-existing belief.

I’ll just leave this here & let you decide which stage you’re in (it’s from management training courses).

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Each one does it their own way but LE does things differently in the sense that normally you derive your pase DOT damage from a primary source, for example, normally a fire DOT would be X% of the fire attack over X seconds in which case it’s pretty clear that anything that scales fire damage scales the DOT. LE is different because a DOT is removed from the attack itself, it has a fixed base value which is then scaled. This seems to imply that you scale ailment damage separatly from the scaling of normal damage, however as I wasn’t sure, I asked which was the only sensible thing to do.

That being said, absolutly nothing of what I said in this thread thusfar is wrong and it is interesting how hard and how far people will go to try and invalidate someone else despite the fact that they are right in everything they said and even things that may not necessarely be a fact, meaning the ones that are more of an opinion which there aren’t many but those that do are are from a perspective of a casual are also not in any way subject to being invalidated as a different opinion isn’t any more valid.

They aren’t the most common because they are generally pretty bad. Primalist for minions mainly do squirel and that’s about the only good build, there are other less good but they are not really worth it. Not sure if the squirel uses bleeding or not as I don’t really play it. Squirel requires too much setup.

Considering that everything else I said was right and the one thing I didn’t knew I asked. That pretty much is a stellar track record. It indicates I know what I talk about and what I don’t know, I make sure to inform myself first. If ailment minions were a good thing I’d have probably tried it before and I’d probably be aware and it could have been part of this thread in addressing minion problems but that wouldn’t actually be worth while. The reason is that I tackled minions by their usage, permanent for people who don’t like constantly resummoning minions and non permanent for those who want a more active playstyle, ailments could have been part of both but it’s not important for the matter at hand.

Again, the only thing or probably one of the very few things I haven’t tried out is ailment builds. I was aware that it had a weird scaling by how it normally goes but without a place stating something like minion damage or bow damage would also scale ailment damage I’d have no way of knowing. Almost everything is explained somewhere, ailments are one of the few things that for some reason aren’t. So no, it wouldn’t be apparent unless either someone tells you or you try that very specific thing.

Which information have I dismissed? Because as I stated before, if someone tells me, do this, it works and I’ve already tried it over and over again ad nauseum and it doesn’t works, then no one is going to convince me that it does because I did, I did it enough times to rule out bad luck (well technically it’s not possible to rule out bad luck as it is technically possible to fail 500 times in a row with good odds, but at some point you have to assume it’s not just bad luck). This is not a pre-existing belief, this is the very definition of trying and verifying if things work or not. However if you have something to point out to things that were told to me that they work one way and I’ve denied it working that way without me having saying that I actually did it, please point it out.

I’ll give you a freebie, when I earlier said that dread shade auto crit used to work on all minions despite the wording not showing that intent, it is true because I used it. The moment I put all my minions under a single dread shade there was no more white numbers. I haven’t tried it after they nerfed dread shade so it’s possible now it’s working like that or it may still give everyone crits. That’s why I wouldn’t build crit, I didn’t needed it.