While we're still in Beta ... Allow players to buy items rather than gamble

[Madriax]

tl;dr Speed up item acquisition so we can test builds and game changes faster to give EHG better, more constructive feedback on game mechanics.

** This only relates to Beta and game testing - not for the Live game **

The loot filter is great and makes item hunting faster - thankyou. Gambling is ok to focus in on an item we may need.

The huge - all very welcome, thankyou! - changes in 0.7.8 and then in 0.7.9 and then their removal and re-working in 0.7.10 has forced players to re-farm or gamble or both to re-gear to then test the changes introduced in every patch. And what changes will be coming in 0.7.11 that will force us to completely re-farm their gear all over again?

This creates an enormous time-sink for players (testers) into just re-gearing every patch before we can progress - in a Beta testing environment. Not all of the current player base has the time to re-farm gear - they want to play and test their character build. No! … they want to play and test multiple characters and builds.

It shouldn’t be a patience/endurance testing environment for players - that is for the Live game, imo. I have no issues with long-term goals and hard to acquire items in the Live game. Right now, people can get put off playing LE by rapid changes and think “I’ll just wait until it’s released.”

This has a big, negative impact on the number of testers - reducing play-testing - and both the quantity and variety of feedback. We not only have to navigate the obstacle course of patch changes (passives, skills, affixes etc), but also the obstacle course of item acquisition. It’s the age-old nightmare of rng on rng making testing a struggle sometimes.

We have happily paid you to test your game, please help us test it for you .

Tunk Lab is fantastic and is a a great tool for designing a “dream build” - but actually acquiring even 1 or 2 of the items can be very time consuming.

Not only that … if I find a really good amulet but I have to give up, say, poison resist on the one I’m wearing, I then have to readjust one or more of my items just to make it fit in to keep my resistances up. So finding ONE good item might mean changing THREE or more just to use it. Items fit together in a jigsaw … “Ok, so I didn’t get dodge on my boots like I wanted, but I did get it on the belt which means I can lose the Phys res. Ok I can put that on a Relic I found and move this to that …” and so it goes.

The improvements to crafting are welcome, but it’s still nearly impossible to find and craft really good items to test builds because we are fitting those items together like a jigsaw all the time. Currently I am playing a cold-based Spellblade, but if I want to test a fire or lightning build I pretty much have to re-gear. This can be very off-putting and precludes testing variations of characters that want to build around different affixes - freeze, ignite, shock. It requires multiple sets of items - all with the correct, random rolls.

Now, let me emphasize again - this is perfectly acceptable for the Live game, but it makes testing a complete nightmare. We are generally forced into “oh well, that will have to do” with gear whereas with passives and skills we can make it “just so” whenever we want.

We can test passives and skills quickly and easily, please let us test items just as fast for you.

I would like to suggest that during Beta, players have access to a vendor where they can simply buy items at max implicits and max t5 rolls with exactly the affixes they want, very cheaply - and also Idols with max rolls. The principal idea is to rationalize the huge variation in items so other game mechanics can be tested more, especially the 2 most important - damage and defense.

How would this help testing? For the following, please read “Players” as “Beta Testers” as it are what we is (FZ).

1. Players can quickly change their gear as soon as a patch changes game mechanics.
2. Players can mix/match items quicker for their build to try out new things rather than getting into a rut.
3. Multiple setups can be stored and tested on character variations.
4. Players are not punished every patch by changes requiring massive time sinks to re-gear = less time actually testing. This adversely affects those with less time to help test the game than others.
5. Items would be cheap, say 1k gold each so that players with low gold are not at a disadvantage - as they are to some extent now with the gambler.
6. It would even out the huge variation of items and builds that exist by the very nature of rng. It is unlikely that any 2 chars have even a few rare items that have the same affixes and similar rolls. This would make testing more consistent and build/item variations more reliable.
7. Idols are insanely difficult to get - ok for Live, really crap for testing. My best Huge Mage Idol was found by my Primalist 3 months ago - I’ve never had one drop for my Mage - and I’ve only found ONE with the 2 prefixes I want in over 1k hours playing (call that 500 hours of actual gameplay, 80% item hunting).
8. Better chance to find OP builds before release as players will spend more time trying to min-max and testing the game and it’s boundaries. This can have a big impact on feedback relating to damage output and damaged received - a major concern with the changes from protections to resistances and other defense mechanics. Plus future changes.
9. Players could fully utilize Tunk Lab to create their ‘dream build’ and then be testing it within 5 minutes.
10. Players would be testing “best case” builds rather than “this is all I’ve gambled/found so far and crafted as far as I can safely go, so I’ll just have to make do for now” - again, perfectly fine for a live game, pain in the arse for testing purposes.
11. We know the gambler works, we know crafting works, we know item filter works, we know item drops work (albeit not perfectly) - and they all work the same for everyone. We don’t know if “abc” build is better than “xyz” build where they depend on radically different items because item rng has such a big impact. Ok for Live, makes testing unnecessarily difficult.
12. More variations would be tested as players would have unfettered access to weapons and items they would probably not normally try. A player could then test all gloves with exactly the same affixes to see which was best. They could move, say, armour shred from gloves to amulet very quickly and rebuild items. They could try different weapons.
13. As it is, all testing is utterly dependent on item rng making it both difficult and tiresome to really test and try new things. I want to test LE, I just don’t want to spend hundreds of hours of rng to get the tools necessary to do the job.

There would probably have to be some restrictions …

1. Only characters that reach level 100 can use the vendor and use the items. This means that the campaign and levelling progression are unaffected so their testing remains totally unbiased by bought items. It is end game where builds begin to shine. It could also be seen as a “reward” for getting to level 100 … access to test gear to play with and have fun.
2. Does not apply to Sets or Uniques. Many of these items are already in use and have a large test-base.

Item hunting and Crafting

Item hunting remains asis - we still want to find and craft really nice items and test Loot Filter.

Crafting would not be affected - players can still find T6 and T7 items they want to craft as they do now. More crafting testing is simply annoying players with fractures right now and as millions of tests have been run in simulation by EHG to show the chances of success/fracture are working as intended … all it is doing now - in a test environment - is making people annoyed or disappointed … save that for the Live game!

Arena vs Monolith

Everything continues as it does now.

Arena is where “perfect” builds would be tested the most as Arena does not have the huge variations in Timeline Modifiers and other Magic/Rare mob modifiers so it is a more stable environment to test builds and the boundaries of damage and defense - both for the player and the mobs.

Monoliths are still run for item upgrades and Blessings.

This is not about how Arena and Monoliths are balanced or the merits of one over the other. It is about giving players quicker access to better tools to be able to test more variations in character builds and item setups while the game is still in Beta.

That’s Unfair! That’s OP! That’s Insane! You’re Mad!

Having access to perfect rolled items of your choice does not take away from the skill of the player. Far from it. Given any 2 players with exactly the same items, skill will show through.

Items are the tools we need for testing and having to find our tools before we can do the job each patch takes up a lot of time.

Let us be OP and then nerfed. Let us 1-shot bosses and be nerfed. Let us be immortal and then nerfed. Let us try and break the game for you and then you fix it.

All while we are still in Beta. So we don’t get a day 1 patch.

Thanks, anyone who got this far.

[meesterg]

I agree that some things should be easier. Especially in Beta.
I cant test load of things because of some systems in this game which i already made threads about just today and a few weeks ago. Some things i would like to be permanent but beside that it seem like you need a lot of patience and time and/or your preference should be to like a more “hardcore” approach.

I still wonder why they don’t make a seperate system were these kind of things are so punishing so every type of player can enjoy this game well still mainting the vision of a game not being to easy.

I disagree about giving everything.
You should test the whole proces so also the “harder” parts. You can’t give feedback on that if you didnt experienced it if you know what i mean.
I experienced some things that i dont like at all because of it and some things that i really like. So while giving everything might seem tempting and has it benefit it also has downsides.

It might be a good thing to let a small group test the game like this so you get input from two different areas/perspectives.

[Llama8]

While I would like it from a testing point of view, at some point they need to make sure the drop rates/fracture chances/etc are where they want them to be and that kind of testing can take a while to come to an acceptable balance (as people find unintended consequences that need to be dealt with).

So, unfortunately, I don’t see this happening.

[Madriax]

@Llama8

While I would like it from a testing point of view, at some point they need to make sure the drop rates/fracture chances/etc are where they want them to be and that kind of testing can take a while to come to an acceptable balance (as people find unintended consequences that need to be dealt with).

Players generally seem happy with drop rates and crafting fractures - there is very little complaint on the forums about them and the loot filter has sped up item finding.

Neither of these aspects would change - they will still be tested in exactly the same way they are being tested right now.

Having the ability to buy items would not affect drop rates or crafting results. Unintended consequences will still be found at the same rate, if not quicker. Players will still run Monoliths for better items to craft and Blessings. Players will still farm for t6 and t7 items to upgrade.

Fracture rate has had it’s own threads and discussions for a few months and no amount of additional player testing will add to the millions of simulations runs performed by EHG to determine if they need tweaking further. They’ve already said they are happy with their results.

One thing that is near impossible to test right now is what happens if all items have, say, 2 t7 rolls on them and all the other affixes are just what is needed.

Let’s say I drop a good 7/7 item that I then upgrade to 7/7/5/5. If I could re-buy items to use it immediately and re-balance my affixes accordingly then I could keep on repeating this indefinitely. Making the char more and more powerful and testing the upper limits of damage and defense. Which we just can’t do right now.

This would be good for testing drop rates, crafting, min-maxing, damage balance and defense balance.

From a testing point of view, I think it’s a win-win.

[leydun]

@Madriax

Fracture rate has had it’s own threads and discussions for a few months and no amount of additional player testing will add to the millions of simulations runs performed by EHG to determine if they need tweaking further. They’ve already said they are happy with their results.

I would say this isn’t necessarily true, due to the response on my thread about crafting fractures are too common.

Crafting fractures are far too common

I was really trying to avoid the phrase “working as intended” because it’s not really. It doesn’t quite fit the role we want it to and we are still going to be making changes to it. I really just wanted to confirm that I don’t believe it has any major chance related bugs at the moment. It’s doing what it says it’s doing but I wouldn’t say working as intended.

[Jerle]

@Madriax

This has a big, negative impact on the number of testers - reducing play-testing - and both the quantity and variety of feedback. We not only have to navigate the obstacle course of patch changes (passives, skills, affixes etc), but also the obstacle course of item acquisition.

You’re assuming that the priority is feedback on the former in beta testing. The thing is that the acquisition is part of the required test loop.

The devs aren’t trying just to shape the build mechanics in beta. They are shaping the overall experience of the game. Otherwise, they could have easily given us an item editor, which btw, was actually available in early alpha

[Madriax]

I understand about the overall feel of the game and about item acquisition being a major part of testing - but this wouldn’t be affected, like I said. I’m still playing and enjoying the item hunt etc.

Item and skill combinations such as https://forum.lastepoch.com/t/disintegrate-op-nerf-please-parental-advisory-explicit-content/25257 are easier to find during testing if players have access to the right items - in this case, 2 uniques.

Getting build mechanics right is very important though, to identify imbalances early on and to test the upper limits of builds to make sure it aint broke.

When protections, resistances, armour, mana generation, ward generation, skills and passives etc all change at once as they did last patch it can be very time consuming to rebuild your items, that’s all I’m saying - and making it a bit easier to create test builds would not detract from any other aspects of the game.

[talkinkorean]

I heavily disagree with this. Having full access to items distorts the gaming experience. If EHG wants to test specific builds or interactions, they can do that in a targeted setting. Part of beta testing this game is testing the experience. How does progression feel? How does the item chase feel? There are a lot of testing to be done on player experience that can’t be done with the method you described. And also let’s face it, testing this game is also a way for us to play the game and have fun. Let me buy all the items and I’ll be done in a week because the gaming experience has been distorted for me. Leave the full testing to internal testing (with specific goals in mind that require easy acquisition to items, skills, etc to save time and increase frequency) and let the players provide feedback on how the game feels as a whole.

[Macknum]

While we are in Beta let’s get the data needed for a smooth launch without issues on that topic ^^. I understand the wish for limit testing but I think it’s more important to get viable numbers. EHG had so little wipes and because of this I’m concerned about the rates for new players even more thou after the resi changes.

I realy hope they take a good look at ssf people for a relistic view on rates rather then on people who kept stuff like 50+ dmg lvl 4 weapons and such ^^.

[Llama8]

@Macknum

I realy hope they take a good look at ssf people for a relistic view on rates

They do/have, you don’t need to worry about that.

[Shrukn]

I think a PTR type system from D3 is best - increase XP / rarity drops by a huge amount - everything is wiped, then on release adjust the numbers. huge problems with losing players to this though

but an item editor is bizarre idea - you dont need insane gear to test things and provide feedback

[Macknum]

You forget about the “Everything was different in Beta and you changed all this stuff and made the game… (blablabla) reeeeeee[*babyrageenabled~]!!!111…” People. Every beta that had changes in droprates, mechanics and other stuff had a big ammount of people that ere frustrated after the launch because X changed.
An example I remember pretty well was the respeccing in WH40k Inquisitor Matyr… in Beta and EA yo uhad free respeccs and after launch it waas gone and you had to farm items that reset one point per item and the crowd went mad… like batshit crazy. This change was communicated and obvious but a lot of people who didn’t care went all bonkers in an instant ^^.
This might apply to LE as well if the introduce stuff that isn’t there after the launch. So far I think we have some pretty good community tersters and I’m almost certain they give a lot of good feedback. Right now I don’t see any need for changes on the regular Beta client because in LE you get a ton of stuff dropped to toy arround with anyway.

[HOH]

Too long to read but it seems your title speak for itself so… buddy here you did forget something ! We HAVE to test the RNG systeme too… the item are tested in the dev phase so its unlikely for us to try them… even during an alpha i never seen any game just give the item to the player to test them by themself…

BUT !! (yeah i know every time i post i came with an idea about the topic xD)

We can have a private room for our character where we can try different build… a sort of creation mod (for those who have played BDO the testing character session where we can pvp have access to everything (item and talent) and try our dmg on different dummy limited to an arena and limited to 3 character)…
This thing can be a good tool for everyone even on the game release !

[Madriax]

@Jerle

Otherwise, they could have easily given us an item editor, which btw, was actually available in early alpha

I should have saved a lot of time and just written a “Can we have an Item Editor” thread - lol at myself!

I wasn’t around for Alpha and was unaware EHG had already been through an item editor phase.

@HOH

buddy here you did forget something ! We HAVE to test the RNG systeme too

As I mentioned above, nothing else would change, RNG would still be tested as it is now - it wasn’t forgotten.

…

Anyhoo, I still think there will be areas of the game that will remain untested if players have to recreate the testing tools they need every patch and we can’t test the damage/defense boundaries properly, separate to how the “game experience feels”.

It is very difficult to tune and test a car when the road keeps changing underneath.

I’m happy to concede that there are good reasons for not having an editor, as people have posted above. Thanks for the feedback and your viewpoints

But I reserve the right to say “I told you so” if we get day 1 patches or very quick re-balancing patches after release because of OP builds that could easily have been discovered during testing but were not tested due to a lack of testing tools, rather than lack of players, time or will.

During testing we need less restrictions, not more, imo.

[CaiusMartius]

@Madriax

But I reserve the right to say “I told you so” if we get day 1 patches or very quick re-balancing patches after release because of OP builds that could easily have been discovered during testing but were not tested due to a lack of testing tools, rather than lack of players, time or will.

This is going to happen no matter how free/easy to get stuff is in beta so that’s not much of a “reserve the right”. That’s kinda liked saying I’d e I go to a football (American) game i reserve the right to say I told you so if they start with a kickoff.

[darkdeal]

A side effect of this that people may not see is balancing the games difficulty. If everyone can just buy BiS gear, that will SERIOUSLY skew peoples view on the games difficulty and character progression.

It is nice to see your completed character come to fruition, but at that point, the game is over for many people.

I am hoping, through additional game mechanics and development, that BiS gear becomes much harder to acquire.

[talkinkorean]

No, you don’t reserve that right. You’re automatically assigning a cause for the effect when in reality it could have been something else. All games launch with issues regardless of whatever testing systems they have.

[Madriax]

@talkinkorean

No, you don’t reserve that right.

Let’s not get into an argument!

It is a sad fact that some games get released because of a deadline and get negative reviews on Steam etc because people think they were released unfinished, or in a beta state etc … the forums are full of dissatisfied gamers not because the games are really bad but they were released unfinished or did not meet players expectations.

Look at the feedback on Wolcen and the years that was in development. I’ve been waiting 2 years for Aquanox and it’s been met with a very cold reception - not what players were expecting.

The key point is this - the more testing is done, the better for the final release, simple. The less chance of a wave of negative reviews at launch and post-launch insta-patches.

I can see the idea of an item editor is distasteful to some (many?), but the fact that with it we could test aspects of the game which are pretty much untestable right now (builds with perfect gear) and test them far quicker by not having to farm the gear first, is undeniable.

[HOH]

THEY DO !

@Madriax

But I reserve the right to say “I told you so”

Dont think that you can see the futur because its already the present we already have a proper game (althrough its a beta the game should be this way more or less in its realease) to test and its already the case some build are completly broken whithout a /give item and when the game will be release we (the player) will have more way to find broken thing as the content of the game expand so of course it will be… + dont lie because we all want it a creative mod where we can test our build (because of course if they agree to your suggestion it will be in this way and never on the game itself)

@Madriax

I can see the idea of an item editor is distasteful to some (many?)

And now we will talk about the real reason of why it is a REALLY BAD IDEA for you to understand

The game as it is now is not a testing program were people who buy it on steam agree to have a dev testing tool rather than a proper beta game ^^ let me explain…

Right now you buy Last Epoch to play it in its beta version so you buy it to play the game even if its not completed yet… What you propose here is to give people the way to become proper game tester by /give item… The thing is if you do that people will simply buy the game /give their item laugh 1 or 2 minute with a build that bordaman21 have find to break the game then refund it and forget about it because there is nothing else to do… i mean you litterally propose to cheat on a beta for the sake of testing the game dude thats totally why its a bad idea xD… let the broken build be in the release at least we can farm for it then farm with it before the dev nerf it then retry with another build in a new char <= this is also a part of the fun in ARPG you know

[talkinkorean]

haha for sure. It was tongue in cheek. And Wolcen omg. You brought up my blood pressure. That game was 2 years away from being in a releasable state. We all agree more testing is good but what we disagree on is the allocation of resources. Unlimited editing power is used to test something at high frequencies. A great example is what one of the staff (I’m sorry can’t remember your name!) did for crafting success rates. Just run the algorithm/whatever they had and see what the percentages are at a good sample size. That’s something he/she did to validate crafting success rates. That can also be done with gathering data from player attempts. Having the power to edit doesn’t do anything to increase the sample size in an impactful manner because the sample size has already been achieved.

Build testing is also being done by the community and there has been some very creative builds. Builds that are in the outlier (overly OP, vastly underpowered) has always been in games. Heck, even games that have been released for YEARS still go through that problem. Sample size is not going to solve the problem of outliers. It’s ubiquitous throughout the gaming industry and even in the real world in general. I’m a BA and test new functions and fixes as part of my job. I can’t count the number of times we thought we had an airtight testing only for it to go to production and something just breaks. I’ve had small fixes go through without any hitch, but I’ve never had new functions/improvements go through without something breaking. All new systems (think of healthcare.gov or any State system for Obamacare) will go through massive problems with or without good planning. It’s just a matter of degree. The same can be said for new games. The best games released have small problems here - no game ever releases perfect or close to perfect.