What is good balance of a game? Is it needed?

Let me first show my ideas of what “Balance” is and why i don’t believe any game should be.

  • Balance is when every single build, ability or combination regardless of skill does the same amount of DPS
  • Balance is something many think is the way to make a great game. Balance is also something that comes in patches.
  • Balance is something even World of Warcraft struggles with after what 25 years, and still dosent handle well.

When trying to remember where i have the most of fun, where i always comeback it’s the games of D&D. A simple dice game with pretty much awfull balance.

D&D have instant kill spells. Timetravle spells, Giant Teleports, Portals, Summons, Healing and the great part none of it is pretty much balanced.

The most important in a game is to feel “usefull”, you dont even have to be overpowered, just usefull. Maybe your playstyle is not DPS, and speedruns.

So back to subject!
If you strive for balance is a never ending game and experience shows it can NEVER be achived. Instead give players broken stuff let the players be super powerfull. When you press that big spell stuff needs to happen.

  • Just remember to do the same for the monsters! Thats pretty much the key. Use all the time on the difficulty and the monsters the players face. Make each and every talent be very usefull in someway that is meaning full for that type of player.

  • Make talents that suits the different types of players not just the class.

This is not in order to compare with another game… it’s just a fun fact about the same topic.
The developers of Wolcen said that they will permanently introduce nerfs and buffs that change the meta. The objective is not to balance everything, it’s to make sure that, at a moment or another, everything is played. I rather like the idea.

I think your definition of “balance” introduces a lot of issues that make your conclusion foregone. Balance is contextual: it means different things depending on the game.

For example

This kind of balance rarely exists, even in fighting games. Tekken, Street Fighter, etc… All have the same basic building blocks of light, medium, and heavy punches and kicks, but each individual char has their own nuances that give each move a purpose in their kit and favors certain strategies. The only way to achieve balance on the level quoted above is to have each char be a carbon copy of each other, and I genuinely can’t think of a video game that has come out within the past 10 years that basically just has 2 of the same avatar duke it out vs each other.

If all of them are able to used without significant disadvantage, then they are balanced.

I think the issue here is you have a conception of balance that equates it to homogenization, when all balance does is try to balance out the power and usefulness of multiple different tools. Using your D&D example, if the game was balanced in a way where instant kill spells could only be cast once a day, on a D17 or higher, and could still be blocked or dodged, then would you still have fun trying to use them with all of those restrictions?

Skills don’t need to have the same exact DPS to be balanced. They compete in AOE, mana efficiency or cooldown, overall clear speed, quality of life, and various other factors. The trick is to not have outliers that are always more useful or significantly less useful than all other alternatives.

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This is very important.

Every skill should have different areas, where it excels in.
Every skill has a different purpose.

Some of this can be heavily altered with the skill spec tree, but as long as each skill has at least one or two ways, where it really shines that’s great.

Also what makes balancing in complex games very difficult is not only the balance of each individual skill by itself, but also the interaction of multiple different skills/passives/items.

And this is where the continous balancing via patches needs to happen.

Every now and then, there will be a certain interaction arising, that is simply too strong and the most important thing for the devs IMO is, nerfing those interactions using the right levers/tuning knobs, without affecting to many other builds, that not using that broken interaction.

A game with amazing balance is Grim Dawn, and not by chance it is (IMO) best in about every aspect among the current ARPGs

LE has a long road ahead/ Unfortunately it is a clone of PoE that is a clown fiesta, LE in some aspects is even more wild, about half of the current and past “best/popular/lol-1mil-damage” are basically design oversights or mechanic gimmicks/exploits, and don’t get me started with monster skills balance…

This game is in beta and there are experiments that the EHG staff does to stick their toes in the water. If there is a time to do those kinds of experiments, now is the time. Things that are completely out of scope that make easy to fix interactions with certain skills they will patch quickly even during this beta. Other interactions such as the EQ Werebear take more time as there are several interactions then EHG would wait until a larger patch release to fix.

EHG has said what they won’t do is pull a PoE Harvest League and say well we want to make this awesome content for players to use then yank it out without having some valid point.

As a former WOTC employee there is nothing balanced about D&D. Each class is their own mastery then prestige classes add to that. When mortals approach godhood on the prime, then they can be considered for their own ascendancy. The problem is now that there is no endpoint like in was represented in the PC game the Throne of Bhaal.

And “oooops, we appear to have totally trivialised crafting high end gear way beyond what we expected maybe we need to rework this before pushing it to core” isn’t a good reason? It’s certainly a good example of how a community would react when the devs add something that the community really wants (like, say, getting rid of fractures or removing skill delevelling on respec) then tries to take it away at a later date.

No, no no no… here see there in lies the problem. There was a lack of testing between all the varied systems and this is how many YEARS down the road. Chris admitted he goofed. The problem was the beasts and the other mechanics all combined produced a toxic radioactive sludge that infected the PoE player base once they got a taste of the “real” life. The lowly 99% finally got off their bent knees and rose to heights like no other. But no the 1% demanded they be brought down on low again to be cur to the elites that broke the system in the first place.

They use that as an excuse over at Path of “£$”! as well. It doesn’t work at all for them anyway. Since they’ve been trying to do that the last few years have been a constant disaster when it comes to “balancing”.

My opinion is this. The sole purpose of any game is to provide entertainment for the end user, full stop.

It is not down to the developers to decide HOW their players enjoy themselves. That is what that other game is constantly trying to do, force their players to play in the way that THEY want them to do. The result is a large number of the player base constantly looking for another game to be released to jump ship to asap. That’s hardly a good plan for long term success.

So, if there is a “meta” and players enjoy it, instead of using nerfs to dissuade players from having a choice, buff the other components of the game to encourage their use instead. Imho, it’s a mistake to penalise a build unless it’s obviously broken. If people want to enjoy themselves in one particular way playing a game, so what? At least they are then actually playing the game, which surely is the primary objective of a games company - to keep people playing.

The only problem with this is that “the players” is not something homogenic.
Part of the players like something, another part dislikes it.
Part of them like fast and dense gameplay, another part dislike it.
Part of them like to play meta builds, another part diskile it.
The developers of a game are supposed to have a vision. They are developing their own game, the game they would want to play. We, as players, will ever like it or not. But yes, the devs will tell us how to play. If they do their job well, they will give us a choice between several ways (exactly what EHG does), but they don’t have to enable every playstyle.

That, I agree with. If it’s a PvE game, I fully agree. In PvP, it’s a bit different, but usually I don’t like PvP so I’m not used to it.

Agreed, but as I said the devs are making their own game, sticked to their vision. By the way, it’s exactly what Mike said several times on stream.

Yes, I agree with you on all your replies.

I do welcome “balancing” in games, but the methodology is often where the problems come in. My opinion is that nerfing should always be a last resort, and only in broken cases. Buffing things that obviously don’t come up to scratch (popularity shows this metric) works better. Also, the issue with most other games is that they nerf player skills/gear while never seeming to make any corresponding adjustments to AI mobs.

Lastly, the “yardstick” you use to balance to is important. Do you balance to a) your streamers/pro gamers/elitists or do you try to cater to what you perceive to be your “average” player with his “average” playtimes. Not as easy a question as it first appears. The first method capitalises on your free advertising and new player potential, the second is more likely to provide loyalty and longevity. Fortunately we have a wonderful metric for this right now over at the place a lot of us migrated from. That is the streamer based “balancing” metric, and from what I have seen the last couple of years the community is full of people just waiting out time for a worthwhile competitor to jump ship to. Sure, they will always have a large influx of “newbies” attracted by the streamers, but what value is that? The same newbies are like moths to the nearest & brightest flame, sadly a majority of them seem fairly toxic and as migratory creatures have no interest in community. Veterans on the other hand are generally more loyal, and also make up that community by demonstrating their passion & loyalty by answering newer players in forums/reddit/in game chat etc.

It’s a tough decision, and one only the devs/business can make. The poe model provides more of a “get rich quick” model (if it works) but they have had the luxury of a lack of real competitors for their “fat” period. I would say that something like EvE Online or WoW provides more of the veteran approach when it comes to game balancing/development for the most part, and they have demonstrated that it can be a long term model.

Hey I’m not that old yet.

The most important part of game balance is what made D3 fail. The basic numerical and scaling numbers of players Vs monsters throughout the game. The core foundation of game balance in an RPG, is the math and tuning to make player survival and damage be in sync with progression Vs enemies.

The reason D3 failed at this, the game was boringly easy from normal to hell difficulty. Then almost impossible in NM difficulty. When an AAA company failed the fundamentals, I knew they had fucked up.

Numerical balancing and tuning is a time consuming job that requires lots of testing and changes. What resistances should this monster have, which makes sense for that monster? What abilities makes sense for this monster to have? How punishing should this ability be?

It gets even more complex when you add in the possible monsters inhabiting an area. As you then have to also balance and think about how these mobs are balanced together.

For example if one area has a pool of monsters present. And a possible combination is a void spider that reduces void resistance, and a monster shooting void mortars - that could be a deadly combo. There are a LOT of these minor things that can and will make ALL the difference in game balancing.

As someone with autism I sometimes get an insane obsession with what most people would probably call “insignificant details”. I can literally have problems sleeping, because I think a raptor mob is too weak for its level, and should logically have 45% bleed resist and not 20% bleed resist - and +4 melee damage. Or a scorpion that should have its AOE nerfed, but have faster autoattacks etc. (I think a game tester as a job would be perfect for me,).

Another thing with balance you mentioned that I disagree with:

WRONG. Damage is one factor. Availability for resistances, armor and other defensive stats from passives is a factor. Speed and mobility skills is a factor. All of these and more has to be taken into an overall account. Damage is just a minor cog in the machinery.

There will never be “true” balance. Imagine how boring it would be, if all classes have the same strengths and weaknesses. Balance isn’t about making classes and skills similar in gameplay aspects. It’s about making them dissimilar - but in a way that the player feels the differences are fairly balanced in weight.

As a very simple example. Mage with high damage, high resists, but low HP and armor. OR. A warrior with medium damage, medium resists, high HP and high armor.

Not only do the strengths and weaknesses need to be different, they are meant to be balanced as a whole package and not in individual elements. For both pure gameplay reasons and for roleplaying reasons, classes in RPGs need to be very different for the sake of preference of playstyle and theme.

If every class had the same DPS - the game would be poorly balanced. Not well balanced.
There is also the issue of a fallacy where people go, for example, “My class has bad AOE, it’s not fair! Look at X class - they have good AOE why can’t I have that?”. Completely failing to understand that though his class may have bad AOE, his class has this and that which is superior to the class he is comparing himself to.

In conclusion: Balance of classes is when every class’ total factors of dps, armor, resist, aoe, debuffs, buffs etc. etc. is fairly evened out as a WHOLE. NOT individually. If X class has insane survival, other stuff must be toned down.

As for player vs enemies. What devs needs to do is think “how crappy gear would it be possible to have at this level?” as a means to determine if even a player badly off at least stands a chance. While at the same time, if another player had insane luck and a good build - they should be steamrolling at the same lvl/area.

The window of opportunity between struggling and destroying everything, needs to be WIDE early game. And slowly, but surely, become NARROWER as you keep going. If horrible builds, or bad players can easily do all content - the game is too easy. But this problem needs to show its face slowly over time.

I’ll stop there, I could keep going forever about this. Balance defined by me is when bad builds, bad players, or bad gear (2/3) is punished severely as time goes on. Provides a good challenge for average build / skill / gear luck, and even good builds played by a good player with perfect gear - can die if they do several big mistakes in a row.

One last thing is that not all skills are supposed to be equally strong due to synergy with other skills or effects. Say I have an AOE nuke that covers a 6M radius dealing 600 damage, and you only have an AOE nuke that covers a 4M radius dealing 400 damage. It isn’t balanced in a vacuum. But say I don’t have another skill that interacts with my AOE nuke, while you have a curse that means your nuke on cursed enemies are stronger than mine.

Now we have a situation where ability A for me is stronger than ability A for you.
But for you, ability A is stronger when supported by ability B.
This means my skill is good, but low scaling potential for example…
… while your skill is worse, but through synergy and combo - is actually better.

You can NEVER LOOK AT AN INDIVIDUAL PART and say, that’s unbalanced. It’s a machinery and a complex one. It takes a lot of time, effort and work to balance. And the “simplest” things like “what resistances should this monster have in this level range?” are actually the hardest things to do right. Due to the sheer amount of factors so many small tunings affect.

I knew they messed up D3 when I was bored as hell through hell difficulty, game being so easy I was autopiloting like a drone. They failed at the most important aspect of game balance. The CORE values of player skills and monsters, in regards to scaling etc.

Ok NOW I’m done lol. I hope this was helpful somewhat. Let me know if you disagree with anything or if I misunderstood something. Like I said I have autism so sometimes I misinterpret the sentiment of arguments.

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