Very disappointed with Summon Wraiths and how they've decayed out of being in my builds!

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Back Story

Before I dive into everything that I find currently bad about summon wraiths and my possible ideas on how to improve it, I want to add that summon wraiths was hands down one of my favorite all time skills. Ive been making builds based around summon wraiths since patch 0.7.6

Patch 0.7.6 - Necromancer Minion Bleed Build Explained. Can Kill The training Dummy! - YouTube

Patch 0.7.7 - Necro Minion Mayhem Is Back Patch 0.7.7d Last Epoch - YouTube

Patch 0.7.8 - 150,000+ Ward 100 Minions 200+ Wave Necromancer! 0.7.8f Last Epoch - YouTube

Patch 0.7.9 - #1 Build 250+ Minions 900k+ Ward Necro Curse! 0.7.9e Last Epoch - YouTube

Patch 0.7.10 - Ultimate Necro Minion Ignite BUild 0.7.10 Last Epoch - YouTube

Patch 0.8.1 - OUTDATED | Hell's Army. A 200+ minion Necromancer 0.8.1c Last Epoch - YouTube

Patch 0.8.2 - OUTDATED | 100+ Minion with Exploding Zombies and up to 40k Ward 0.8.2 Last Epoch - YouTube

During this 2 year period of playing with wraiths in several different forms, including a melee variant, putrid variant, and flame wraith variant, there have been many viable builds. The biggest issue with the build was Performance which ultimately was due to the sheer number of wraiths that were being made. We knew that this number would very likely be reduced before we ever saw multiplayer!

The Plot Thickens

During the last two years there has been a volley of bugs with several skills and the wraiths themselves that made them to be more than they were.

  1. Rip Blood - For a Few patches rip blood was able to target ALL minions bring back blood orbs from everything hit which mean if you had 200 minions, 200x the mana and the ward returned to you. This lead to infinite mana and the ability to get to 1 million ward! Rip Blood had this bug fixed though.

  2. Minion Damage Reflect - When damage reflect was first introduced, you could have each minion reflect up to (IF I RECALL) somewhere around 35% of all damage they took. This meant that if you had 200 wraiths and an enemy did an AOE skill and hit all 200 for 500 damage, that said enemy would have 35,000 damage returned to it. This lead to the BEST EVER damage reflect build in Last epoch but it was short lived and damage reflect was nerfed.

  3. Putrid/Flame Wraiths Decay Rate - A fix that came to reduce the total number of wraiths was to increase the decay rate, but when this got implemented it only affected the standard melee wraith which meant, you guessed it, nobody even bothered to play with the normal wraith as it just died after casting it before getting to an enemy. Putrid/Flame wraiths however decayed slower and achieving hundreds of them was still possible.

  4. Drain Life - The final way to achieve such high number with wraiths was to have a source of unlimited mana which is still to this day achievable with drain life. It can give you back over 130 mana per second if you have it hitting 13 minions. THIS IS WHAT SHOULD HAVE GOTTEN NERFED and summon wraiths numbers would have dropped by association.

The Sad Ending

Then Patch 0.8.3 Dropped and ruined summon wraiths altogether. IT HARD CAPPED IT. Now you can only have 6 wraiths by default. 8 maximum when using the skill tree, and 20 maximum with perfect rolled unique + skill tree. AND ONLY 2 IF you dont want them to DECAY. a measly 2.

Why is this bad and what can we do about it?

Well for starters the main problem that a majority of the community felt with the necromancer was having to constantly be re-summoning minions way to often. 2 problems with wraiths in this category

1-PROBLEM) By default the wraiths still decay and they do so at an extremely to fast rate for only being able to have 8 of them. There is also no way to offset this with improvements in gear as the rate of decay is constantly accelerating.

1-SOLUTION)
a - Slow down the decay rate so there not such a hassle
b - Just make them no longer decay by default and add in options to give them certain decay rates in exchange for increasing the maximum number you can have

2-PROBLEM) Damage output VS Maximum Number is in need of serious balancing act. No matter how you build wraiths or which version you have there damage at peak levels can barely compete with what is possible with summon mages and summon skeletons which are permanent minions AND have AoE and skeletons can have as many as 11 PERMANENT minions VS Wraiths 8

2- SOLUTION)
a - Higher the Hard cap of wraiths. 10 By default. Be able to get to 20 Maximum with Tree. 32 Maximum with unique max rolled + Skill tree
b - Give them a damage boost. They should be doing 2-3x the damage they currently do to make up for how much of a hassle they are
c - Make them permanent by default and get ride of the Maximum 2 node.

TLDR

Wraiths (IMO) are in the worst spot that they have ever been. While hard capping their numbers was a must(?) it was capped way to low and they still feel horrible since they decay at way to fast a rate. They require way to much upkeep and hopefully the entire tree gets a rework in the future when the Acolyte class sees its Update like the others.

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I am not a minion/summoner fan, but Wraiths are the reason I do enjoy these type of playstyles a little bit.

Having a more active playstyle, that constantly forces you do re-summon them is really cool.
It does need a lot of investment to feel good and I would agree that wraiths are not something, that you can “just use” on most builds and you need to fully commit to them.

The Unique Abberant Call elevates that playstyle to the next level. but is not really necessary to make Wraiths shine/feel good.

They are amazingly strong and litterally melt everything, if you did invest a little bit into them.

If you invest into minion leech, they do last a lot longer, when they have something they can attack.
But I would agree that the -% health decay in the skill spec tree does seems to have to less of an effect and could be more impactful, if you wanna go that route.

Please no, necromancer already has so many permanent minions, please keep wraiths temporary, it just makes them so much cooler and it’s a lot of fun investing into sustaining them.

hard disagree, they are dealing way more single target damage than any other combination of minions for a single skill slot, once you do invested into them.
Base line they are pretty bad, but they ceiling is astronomical.
Not a single other minion can compete with their damage output.

Disagree

Nope

Nope (read above)

The only thing I agree on here is, that the no decay node should get buffed.
IF you want to make them permanent (which should not be baseline IMO) and make them as boring as any other minion skill, it hsould not fel that bad and at least having 3-5 of them should be reasonable, to at least feel like they are an addition to a “large army”, if you wanna play with a lot of permanent minions.
Increasing the number of those permanent wraiths, but maybe decrease they damage output would be fine.

For me wraiths are fun, engaging and give you a very different option of summoner playstyle (together with Volatile Zombies)
Please don’t take that away.

What is missing for me in the entire skill spec tree, would be a way to make them deal decent AoE damage, while decreasing their singletarget output.
Maybe a 3rd Type of wraiths which has cleaving melee attacks?

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VS

Well which is it?

Do you have a build planner for a build setup where Wraiths are the only and/or main damage source? I havent had such luck making them out perform the damage of either skeleton archers OR cryomancer mages.

As for all the others points agree VS disagree… yes everyone will feel there own way about it. I’ve laid out my feelings.

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I’ve made my own opinions about the Summon Wraith skill, and instead of re-hashing them here, I’ll mention what I’ve found through leveling and playing with Aberrant Call.

I’m going off of memory since I’m playing multiple builds at once, but without any sources of minion regen, Wraiths last roughly 8 seconds or so. With Aura of Decay + 3 T5 Minion Health Regen affixes, they last for 15 seconds. You need all those affixes, Mana Regeneration (yes, beyond what the weapon gives you), and Cast speed to be able to have a steady supply of 15-20 Wraiths.

What makes the Wraiths harder to build for - at least compared to Skeletons - is that it’s a lot easier to build for 100% Crit chance for Skeletons due to the flat Crit affixes for Chest + Idol slots. Wraiths - on the other hand - don’t have that luxury, and getting Wraiths to 100% involves a lot of sacrifice on the tree nodes + investment in other skills. The Wraiths’ base damage is much higher than Skeletons, but the ease of 100% Crit and a large Crit multiplier makes it so that Skeletons can do more consistent damage in the end.

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Same ‘discussion’ as usual

User points out potentially buffing something.

Gatekeeper responds ‘NO’ to opinions of their own opinion (which is fact btw) giving false information on why their opinion is ‘right’

no Wraiths DO NOT do the most damage. Unless you have Wraiths hitting the dummy for 500k then no, thats so untrue

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Not sure what you are wanting to hear, but I guess both :stuck_out_tongue:
I just wanted to say, that people should not expect to “just use wraith”, it’s one of those skills where you can’t just throw them into any “regular summoner build”

I will not post any build planners here, since I don’t feel obliged to do that.

Yes… Obviously. And you coming in here with the same attitude as always :unamused:

The majority of points from OP were not necessarily just “please buff it”, but change the baseline behavior of the Wraith skills, which I am strongly against, because as I already stated, I like where they are and how they feel.

Could you just please stop calling people names, like gatekeepers.
Stating one’s personal opinion does not have the slightest to do with gatekeeping. If you throw around with Fancy terms, get your terms right, thank you.

Also calling out “facts” (whatever facts those might be) in something as subjective as a discussion where people state their opinions is weird.

I never gave any “false informations”. I am guessing you are referring to me stating that Wraith do the most damage. I am very confident, that this is very true and even if that is “objectively” not, that’s still my opinion.

Also I never ever said anything, claiming that my opinion is “right”

I am not talking about “per hit damage”.
I was talking about the total dps of a single skill(in this case Only wraiths)

The only thing IMO that would come close to the same dps is Abomination, which does require other skills to Synergie with it, so technically it’s not a single skill slot.

I really don’t know why you are so obstinate in trying to call people stupid names, instead of participating in an discussion.

But it’s really tiring and you finally earned a spot on my Ignorelist

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Same “discussion” as usual.

User points out potentially buffing something.

CT responds with a differing opinion.

Gatekeeper responds to shut the CT down.

You should know by now @Shrukn that the devs read all opinions & don’t give undue weight to a CT’s opinion (& they aren’t monolithic, they all have differing opinions).

I’m with Heavy in that they should remain temporary with a decay though I’ve not played them since they were changed so maybe they should get some flat regen in in their tree. I also feel that a cap of 2 permanent feels too harsh.

You can’t throw superlatives like that around without any support Heavy. “Astronomical” means out of this world, which could be taken as OP in a gaming context. If you’ve found an “OP” Wraiths build, you need to share it to support that kind of statement. Otherwise it kinda looks like you’re just throwing a thesaurus at a post without understanding the meaning of the words.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary support, otherwise you’re just pulling stuff out of your ####.

So prove it.

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Not gonaa gatekeep, doesn’t matter if buff again or keep nerf.

Regardless of what the suggestion is, it will not go back to pre 0.83 wraith. They dont even want a “tone” down version, or even similar style. Thats why the changes are so harsh.

Its not because its OP because others builds are op too.

Its simply because they dont like it and thats it.

If you really want your suggestions to be heard, maybe come up with something that is completely different from pre 0.83, move on look to the future.

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sigh Rant incoming…

Wraiths suck.

But it’s because most Necro minions do. The only thing done to alleviate this issue was building a crutch (Dread Shade) for the lacking power in their base stats and skill tree. I don’t think wraiths have ever been in a good place, not speaking from a ‘good build’ stance, but from an overall view… Currently, they lack any worthwhile position in a Necro’s kit for most builds, which is a problem. They need a skill tree rework. Previously, they were a hinderance on performance and still in the extreme cases were only good in a few scenarios, which goes back to the root problem of poor skill/tree design (opinion).

My solution to a lot of Necro’s issues is to remove or repurpose the skill Dread Shade. Instead of, what I view as lazily correcting Necro’s issue with one skill, reimplement it’s buffs to the other Minion base stats or skill trees. This could really help Necro as a whole as I feel only about half of the minion skills are in a truly usable state, which Wraiths are not in that list for me. It’s more so a fluff skill, because you lack options or synergy with anything else. Anyway, I hope something does change for Necro outside of just Wraiths, because to me the problem extends beyond just this skill. And EHG thinks it’s in a good place :sob:

Poor sustain options, poor damage options, heavy reliance on one skill, lacking skill tree synergy, poor QoL, and limited passive options don’t make it seem like it’s in a good place to me! :smiley:

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With the introduction of Volatile Zombies I got used to play non perma minions. And I have to admit that I somehow started to like the old version of Wraiths.

I did not like the playstyle of going 200 wraiths. I never played it, but the showcases in the build videos weren’t appealing to me.

I liked that with decent investment I could run 15-20 Wraiths next to my skeletons. And it felt that the damage advantage and the effort needed to sustain Wraiths was somehow balanced.

The skill rework doesn’t feel good. It was an active playstyle before, now it’s more hectic. Imho many mechanics in the tree don’t work anymore. Decay rate currently is so damn high and all the reduce mechanics don’t do anything meaningful. The health on crit doesn’t add anything meaningful to the sustain.

The damage potential got a really hard nerf and theres no point in using Wraiths over any other minion skill (even Abomination is still a bit clunky imho but has massive damage potential).

I wrote all that on another thread, already and also made some suggestions to improve the skill.

Now we are limited to 6 Wraiths on the base skill, 8 with “Covenant Of Souls”. It’s very easy to get to the limit currently. You don’t need any investment into the tree to consistently have 5-6 Wraiths running. Even 8 Wraiths is easily sustainable with around 10 points into the skill.

With this said, investing into Wraith health, reduced decay rate and minion health regen doesn’t add any significant value. Before it meant more Wraiths = More Power. Now it’s just a little bit of qol when your wraiths die a few seconds later than before. I’d never invest into these nodes or supportive gear that just saves a few clicks in a minute.

Permanent Wraiths can have 45% more damage. This is a bit less than half the damage 6 Wraiths do. But this is after 7 points investment into the tree. So you want me to invest 7 points that half my damage potential for the only advantage that my minions are permanent? Yeah, I like perma minion builds. But that’s to much of a tradeoff. The 6 Wraiths limit cap is already taking away some inconvenience.

Speaking of opportunity cost: With only 6 points invested into the skill, I could enable +2 Wraiths so the opportunity cost of the permanent minions is even higher (not to mention that I already have flat damage for the Wraiths on the way to +2).

What I would have wanted to see:

  • Wraith limit around 20 Wraiths
    • Around 10 Wraiths with low investment
    • Around 15 Wraiths with average investment
    • Getting to 20 Wraiths with high investment
    • Perma Wraith at limit of 8
    • Powerlevel 8 Perma Wraiths = 12-15 decaying Wraiths with high investment

If you keep the current Wraith limit, the perma minion node needs a buff. For 7 points of investment 50% of the powerlevel of the unspecced skill is just not ok. Maybe you could add a 25% more modifier to the “Twin Spirits” node itsself. Or add some attack speed, armor shred, crit multi… something like this.

I’m not a pro theory crafter myself. I try things and look how it feels and works out. I try the obvious stuff and maybe some niche mechanics for a few hours and skip, if it doesn’t work. So I haven’t put in hundreds of hours to make a valid Wraith build.

I get a Skelli build going without any effort. But I did not get something similar out of Wraiths.

Everything I do on my Necros to buff Wraiths also buffs my Skeletons. In all my builds Skeletons currently outperform Wraiths. They are no match. The only decision that still is to be made is between Wraiths an Volatile Zombies. Guess who wins!

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