Trade and Armageddon

[Macknum]

@DiceDragon

D3 which has no trade

D3 has one of the easiest but restrictive as well trade systems in place. Just drop what you want to give someone else and that’s it. Sure you need to be in a party when it dropped and there is a timer and so on and so forth but technicly there is a trade system ^^.

@DiceDragon

Because they have always been very much against a full economy, so why are we not listening to them now?

In their kickstarter where they wrote about their vision for LE trade was an onw topic and they wanted to have it because of the importance of trade but in a different way. So they always wanted some kind of trade but changed their mind.

@DiceDragon

LE has always sold itself as a game for everyone, there is a little bit to do for min maxers, some stuff to do for casual players, and everyone in between.

Yeah but it isn’t a game for people who want to trade… non traders get SSF from the getgo even without asking for it. To me the trade haters have only one thing to say: “But my droprates! Trade makes my droprates shit stop trading!” and nothing else.

@DiceDragon

edit: for example, its pretty clear I lean against trade. Im all for rares/0lp uniques and even maybe exalted being full trade. But Im 100% against LP uniques being tradable

This was a middleground suggestion as well. Everything tradeable up to uniques so exalted and uniques with 1+ LP are non tradeable but still giftable.

While you are against trading… do you think it’s okay that 4 man groups can farm faster and more ffective then a single player and can trade/gift items to one antother to get even bigger faster? This is just a player group that has no trade restrictions outside of items types that can and can’t be traded and free trade so to speak.

@DiceDragon

nd id like to keep boss drops as something you farm instead of something you just skip farming to buy because “eww imagine farming yucky bird man for his armor” is lame af.

Iirc EHG wanted to have meaningfull content everywhere so you don’t have to play stuff you don’t want to. So what do you do if you think Monpolith is a overated boring and lame af thing to do? You’ll never get target farm uniques. Sure the example is prettty much over the top but the lack of good endgame activitys in LE is concerning and I understand each and everyone who will be voicing their frustration with the monolith system.

I just want to throw my baseline argument into the room… I farmed 180h for my first Exsang when I had pretty much no idea about the game and the systems in place. After I got the hang of it and facerolled content up to 200ish corruption I needed 150h to drop my second Exsang. I like games where I can have some targets I want to reach but I don’t think a lot of people will be pleased with such long timers to reach 1 item. I’m very sure other players have more luck then I do but so far that’s the metric I can offer and that’s why I always ask for metrics from EHG and where they want to push the magic find rate to. Imagine they say “The droprates are 5 times as high as intended!” and watch everything burn down :D.

I’m just a fan of data and when I have non at hand I go for the worst case because the worst case is what I’m used to from other games in the past.

[CaiusMartius]

@Llama8

You’re quibbling on semantics. Just FYI…

And you’re quibbling over an apology, so let’s keep this quibblethread going.

[DirePenguin]

@CaiusMartius

This is still all an example of an end-product that is already completed. They have already perfected what is on the menu and when you ask to order that you most certainly can expect to get what is on the menu. A game, ESPECIALLY coming from a Kickstarter is anything BUT a finished product. You’re warned. EMPHATICALLY ON EVERY KICKSTARTER page that the outcome could vary because of some many unforeseen circumstances.

Well yes and no. One can expect slight changes. But a drastic shift in course is completely different. I mean, if they said there would be full, open-world pvp. But then, in the end, you got limited pvp in certain sections of certain zones, with pvp on/off status toggles. That’s about the same as what we’re getting with the trade scenario.

Also, the course wasn’t changed on unforeseen circumstances. This is the devs just arbitrarily deciding that trade ruins games. Imagine if their “hack and slash” ARPG was changed into a medieval version of Hello Kitty Online Adventures because they suddenly decided violence in games was bad.

[Hashashiyyin]

I think the game is very unfinished. Current trajectory is fine in terms of production values. But a few years ago I bought in with hopes that LE was going to bring some new and exciting game design to the genre, and I don’t think that’s landed yet in any meaningful way. I only half-care about trade as its own thing, but I really care about EHG phoning in an absolute copout on a major pillar where they’d confidently promised a creative solution. It’s not the sign of boldness or momentum I’m looking for.

[ExsiliumUltra]

You are writing quibble but my brain is reading it as tribble . Trade does seem to be the Kobayashi Maru of ARPGs. Maybe if we stop calling it trade, or auction house, or bazarr? To really fit in EHGs vision for the game it can be none of those. That is why I keep thinking of ways in which it becomes part of the game and end game This solves the ideal that loot should come from playing the game. Built correctly it can also give the “seller” a feeling that the work they put in to find a valuable item, that they may not need or want currently, has value. The restrictions and game mechanics could be tuned to keep it from affecting drop rates. I apologize I keep having these musings. In the above gifting would stay mostly the same but have more restrictions in some ways but less in others.

[CaiusMartius]

@ExsiliumUltra

You are writing quibble but my brain is reading it as tribble

Sequel: The Trouble with Quibbles.

@ExsiliumUltra

That is why I keep thinking of ways in which it becomes part of the game and end game This solves the ideal that loot should come from playing the game. Built correctly it can also give the “seller” a feeling that the work they put in to find a valuable item, that they may not need or want currently, has value.

That’s a clear goal. Constructively, I wonder how this can be achieved. One concept is a ‘clan’. Another, maybe ‘levels’ of gifting, like ‘trading is free with anyone ±5 levels of you?’ What level of compromise on ‘exploitation’ is acceptable, because we all know, that no matter what system is put in place it will have some level of exploit.

[ExsiliumUltra]

My read of EHG is that it is not just about exploitation. I think the loot from playing the game part actually ranks higher. It would be nice for all concerned if they provided more guidance like a ranking of their goals. To clarify as well I don’t think they should have to compromise anything either.

[DiceDragon]

@Macknum

In their kickstarter where they wrote about their vision for LE trade was an onw topic and they wanted to have it because of the importance of trade but in a different way. So they always wanted some kind of trade but changed their mind.

They also in the kickstarter mentioned “We are designing this system very carefully to ensure that while the Bazaar can be a fantastic way to find certain items, it will never overshadow the rewards of engaging with the world yourself.” - Directly from the kickstarter page.

So maube in the future we will have trade, but the best course of action will always be to go get it yourself.

@Macknum

Yeah but it isn’t a game for people who want to trade… non traders get SSF from the getgo even without asking for it. To me the trade haters have only one thing to say: “But my droprates! Trade makes my droprates shit stop trading!” and nothing else.

People who want to trade are not a player type. Thats like me saying “Well my league of legends player type is trader, and league does not have that.” Trading is just something that is in games sometimes, sometimes it isnt. Its not even a core ideology of the genre.

I think you are asking for trade less because you want trade, and more because of your example with exsang. You simply dont enjoy the current gear aquisition rate. Which is perfectly valid feedback that does not need to involve trade. Trade is just one way to solve that problem.

@Macknum

While you are against trading… do you think it’s okay that 4 man groups can farm faster and more ffective then a single player and can trade/gift items to one antother to get even bigger faster? This is just a player group that has no trade restrictions outside of items types that can and can’t be traded and free trade so to speak.

This is a one of those doom and gloom things. Yes a tiny fraction of the playerbase will be abusing gifting. Just like some will cheat even when it goes server authorative. Those people suck the fun out of games, I dont care what they do.

I feel the same about those players, as those that trade. Should I as a SSF player be getting less progress because I dont want to trade?

Ideally there would just be two gamemodes balanced seperately, but until then we just have to wait for them to solve the trade issue. Perhaps come 1.0 we will have a middle ground trading situation because there will finally be enough content to where trading does not break the progression.

@Macknum

Iirc EHG wanted to have meaningfull content everywhere so you don’t have to play stuff you don’t want to. So what do you do if you think Monpolith is a overated boring and lame af thing to do? You’ll never get target farm uniques. Sure the example is prettty much over the top but the lack of good endgame activitys in LE is concerning and I understand each and everyone who will be voicing their frustration with the monolith system.

This one is fair criticism, and I agree. Monoliths are a bit boring and unpolished. But they are what we have right now, adding trade wont solve this problem lol.

I think right now trade is being restricted so hard because of a lack of content. its like level caps, as games introduce more content, they can relax the content that already exists. So right now we have rares, uniques, and legendaries as time goes on we might get more and more power avenues so having gear be tradable to a degree wont be as problematic.

[Llama8]

It’s about as useful as yet another argument thread about trade.

@CaiusMartius

maybe ‘levels’ of gifting, like ‘trading is free with anyone ±5 levels of you?’

Would that be the level of the character that dropped it or the lvl of the characters you’re currently on while trying to trade? 'Cause if its the latter I could see “everybody” changing to a lvl 1/100/whatever the community decides on as an acceptable lvl ro do trading character ro trade then swap back to whatever they want to play.

The devs have also said many times that they really dont want to give us a thing (eg, unrestricted trade) then take it away later on. 'Cause that’s ####.

[Macknum]

@DiceDragon

They also in the kickstarter mentioned “We are designing this system very carefully to ensure that while the Bazaar can be a fantastic way to find certain items, it will never overshadow the rewards of engaging with the world yourself.” - Directly from the kickstarter page.

So maube in the future we will have trade, but the best course of action will always be to go get it yourself.

Are you serious? I said they invisioned it with the system I didn’t talk about what kind of system how they call it and whatnot. They said they want trade too. That’s all I’m saying so stop defending this and try to twist my words.
On top of it the best way to get the loot you want is to play in a group of nolifers and “gift” items left and right and I BET people who are against trading will make use of this as well.

@DiceDragon

People who want to trade are not a player type.

LOL you compare apples and oranges okay. Just say you don’t like trading and be done with it because you come up with lame excuses sadly they aren’t that smart to begin with with. First of all you mixed up the genre try playing league without buying stuff be my guest because all lol players who buy stuff arent lol players.

Let’s go to the mother of Hack and Slays And Start with Diablo IP… trading everywhere or droping items on the ground and someone else is picking them up… you have options to transfer items from player A to player B. PoE worst kind of trade in a hack and slay but trade non the less. Torchlight = Trading. Grim dawn = Trading. Titan Quest = Trading. Hero Siege = Trading. Warhammer 40k Martyr = Trade. Wolcen = Trading. Dungeon Siege = Trading. Sacred = Trading. That’s all that come to my mind when we talk about isometric Hack and Slay games that someone started to call Action RPG I don’t talk about Warframe or Nier Automate that by description is the same genre as LE because that’s a bad joke as well. edit so far I found Victor Fran and Vikings - Wolfs of Midgard where you can’t trade freely. I played both just to make sure That I don’t want to piss people of and do my part as well in researching stuff but so far I come to an end ^^.
What isometric Hack and Slay with multiplayer has no trade (getting one item from player a to player b with the whatever called system and restrictions in place)? I’m serious here point one out for me. Even LE right now has a trade system if you aren’t nitpicking when it comes to words but you simply trade for free so it’s called gifting. Call it whatever you want to call it but pretty please name one isometric Hack and Slay multiplayer game without trading because I can’t remember one or I might have missed it.

@DiceDragon

I think you are asking for trade less because you want trade, and more because of your example with exsang

I want trade, as I said for years, to trade freely with my friends. I don’t want to trade with michael and his grandma but a very little pool of persons… right now there is only 1 person left because of the gifting announcement but that’s something for another time. That’s all I want trading for to be a happy panda in my very little micro cosmos because I don’t give a rats ass about what others have or achive I’m looking to have fun. Beein unable to give a build enabeling unique to a friend because he wasn’t there when it dropped is bs and not fun to me.

I advocate for a pretty restrictive group based trade system where only a little ammount of people can join and can trade freely with each other and noone else. Noone is hurt by it and there is no need to change the droprates because people can play in their own pace… be done with their seasonal… sorry cycle… goals in a day or in weeks and noone is hurt.

@DiceDragon

Should I as a SSF player be getting less progress because I dont want to trade?

Hell no more power to people who play ssf it’s fun and I do it as well when I don’t play with friends.

@DiceDragon

Ideally there would just be two gamemodes balanced seperately, but until then we just have to wait for them to solve the trade issue.

Ideally people shouldn’t care about others and trading at all. Give trading to those who want it and be done with it. If you don’t want to trade then don’t and enjoy your normal droprates. If you want to trade then trade and enjoy your normal drop rates. When there is no economy and restrictions are in place that make trading a long term commitment the ammount of abuse will be less and less.

@DiceDragon

This one is fair criticism, and I agree. Monoliths are a bit boring and unpolished. But they are what we have right now, adding trade wont solve this problem lol.

Yeah this was a bit of a ramble and the only intresting part is the meaningfull content to be honest. On the other hand as I said many times farming enough of xyz to by an item = playing the game as well the problem is if there is to much xyz things go south pretty fast. Non the less playing the game to aquire gear should enable you to aquire gear :D.

@Llama8

The devs have also said many times that they really dont want to give us a thing (eg, unrestricted trade) then take it away later on.

Yeah but they can put a system in place players want that is tested by CT’s… just sayin xD.

[CaiusMartius]

I was thinking you have to be within 5 levels of each other so a level 70 character could only trade with character between 65-75.

I would like assume that ANY downsides/exploits are being brought up to try to find ways to make the idea work, not to say “Oh I can exploit this so it’s bad from the get go.” No idea is going to survive first contact. Development comes from pointing out loopholes and looking for ways to close them. That’s something that is missing in a lot of these heated conversations.

[McFluffin]

@CaiusMartius

Well, I see benefit of the doubt as what curtails the hyperbole (back to hyperbole now) of the heightened emotionally reaction and vehemence of many of the posts I see (which granted isn’t everything is somewhat in an echo chamber, etc). When I’m given more benefit of the doubt, I’m less apt to respond with less doom and gloom hyperbole and more apt to engage in it constructively.

I guess I’m just not understanding what you’re giving the benefit of the doubt of. You said it directly at me so I’d like to know what I’m doubting what you’re not. That the game can be good without trade? That trade will happen and be good? That people who want trade will actually be totally fine without trade when the game launches?

I know this feels like ‘quibbling’ to you, but the only reasons we’re doing this is because of how you’re using these words to paint some people in a more negative light. I don’t think it’s fair to say people aren’t giving EHG ‘the benefit of the doubt’ when it’s not a case of EHG promising something they may not be able to deliver. They’re just not offering it all. If we want to have a reasonable discussion and avoid ‘Armageddon’ and ‘hyperbole’ speak then we need to be charitable to the other side and not use emotionally charged phrases to make their position seem worse, like you did with me when you said I wasn’t giving them ‘the benefit of the doubt’ but you clearly are.

[CaiusMartius]

@McFluffin

guess I’m just not understanding what you’re giving the benefit of the doubt of.

Giving EHG the benefit of the doubt that this is in no way the finished version of ‘trading/sharing/gifting/whateveritendsupbeing called.’

My apologies for that not being clear.

[CaiusMartius]

@McFluffin

these words to paint some people in a more negative light.

I am not intending to paint anyone into a negative light. I already stated numerous times that I empathize with the disappointment. I’m asking those on the far ends of the spectrum of emotional reaction to take into consideration more ‘benefit of the doubt’.

[vapourfire]

@DirePenguin

Pretending that you wouldn’t be upset about it is just dishonest. And, to be frank, this is what further infuriates those who are upset… the white-knighting, while (hypocritically) pretending everything is hunky-dory. I guaranfuckingtee everyone soapboxing on about not being upset have, at one point or another, been pissed off because a drive-thru got their order wrong. Hey, nothing to be upset about… you got something to eat, didn’t you? It shouldn’t matter if it was what you initially paid for, or not.

I am not pretending anything. I genuinely am not at all upset in any way - whatever was promised, I have gotten what I consider my full monies worth out of LE - anything else is just icing on the top imho. If EHG went belly up tomorrow and I could no longer login to gain access and play in single player mode I would be sad at future missed entertainment, but never upset or feeling hard done by. No chance in hell.

I expressed a similar sentiment a long time ago - iirc probably before 0.8.5 even dropped or any of the current trade issues - indicating that I had had fun, and spent over 1k hours at the time playing and have gotten what I considered my monies worth.

Of course everyone has had a moment when someone f’d up a take-out order but there is a rational way of dealing with it without needing to drive your bloodpressure through the roof.

I honestly dont share your views on this. Dont get me wrong, I am by no means a wallflower and no-one who knew me in person would ever think I would shy from conflict when I felt cheated or someone trying to pull a fast one over me. I have had more than my fair share of fist pumping, blood rushing complaints.

but, I deal with it appropriately with a proportional response suited to the issue and not having a game developer deliver on a specific feature while I have still been able to enjoy my time playing, doesnt, imho, warrant the responses that people are displaying.

again, this is my view. everyone is entitled to go off the rails at whatever pushes their buttons, one would just hope that some perspective and rationality would eventually prevail.

we are not cavemen anymore.

[McFluffin]

@CaiusMartius

I’m asking those on the far ends of the spectrum of emotional reaction to take into consideration more ‘benefit of the doubt’.

You directed at me specifically and I’m not someone on either of the far ends of the spectrum, but we can chalk it up to a misunderstanding.

[CaiusMartius]

Yeah, agreed. I wasn’t really trying to direct it at anyone specifically just more conceptually. Big picture kind of ‘royal we’ stuff. If it was in response to something you said, I didn’t mean it as specifically YOU. No one really in particular, just a general “air” that seems to float around this particular topic.

[XLVI_carpo]

I’m very sorry, but what is the purpose of this thread?

To argue that people shouldn’t argue?

“I empathize with you, but I want you to STFU!”?

I don’t get it. This whole discussion about if it’s legit to discuss makes me even start getting pissed, when I was not so much before.

Please guys, stop acting like politicians and lawyers and try to twist the meaning of sentence, I.e. of the kickstarter page.

Thanks @McFluffin for the posts. Its always nice to read through it, because your able to really bring it to the point. I’m totally with you.

[CaiusMartius]

You do you, bud. no one is saying you can’t discuss it. I was saying, it be more productive and compelling if people didn’t act like it was then end of all things while doing it. But, of course, it’s not mandatory like you’ve just demonstrated.

[reckstay]

There is so much I dont like about certain games, but I play them because they have stuff I really do enjoy. I think trade can be that for lots of people, as in, they will be able to enjoy LE even if they grumble about not having trade..

.