I think this is the main issue.
I’m pretty sure Steam Store doesn’t say anything like “resistance system that’s similar to other games in the genre”, so the expectation of getting a resistance system that’s very close or identical to other games in the genre is wrong from the start.
To avoid confusion, I think you could simply rename and modify the description of this mechanic. “Resistance penetration from area level” shouldn’t have been named resistance penetration. We reserve that name for Shred and Penetration affixes.
Instead, let’s call this mechanic “Miasma” for example. Idk if it’s a good name - others please post your names
Achieves the same effect as described in Heavy’s table
Explains why Miasma doesn’t show up on character sheet
Resistance Penetration is still a thing and now only relates to Shreds and the various existing Penetration affixes
What do you think?
edit: “incoming” made it sound like it’s applied before resistances, so I modified the description again to remove that word.
edit2: but now I realize that calling it a multiplier doesn’t produce the same results as substracting from resistances. Damn coming up with a proper description on the spot isn’t that easy.
See? That’s why I also said it’s not intuitive. Even devs had trouble trying to come up with a proper informative description that would suffice most people’s doubts about the whole system just by reading it.
Also, not wrong to expect some of the major aspects of a ARPG will be present in every new ARPG released, which is the case for resistances, that has always been handled in very similar ways, when not identical, in all games in the genre.
And yes, I’d like if there were different words for this, as this would clearly minimize confusion in players… EHG still has this issue where they name things differently when they are essentially the same, while using same name for things that are inherently different.
You have two Resistances values shown next to each other, cap and uncapped total. For example:
(163%) = uncapped total
75% = current (capped) amount
Then you have two groups of effects:
Resistance reduction
Resistance penetration
(163%) … Resistance reduction is applied to the top number.
75% … … Resistance penetration is applied to the bottom number.
Reduction are ailments like Fire Resistance Shred and Marked for Death. Penetration are all things that say “X% penetration with Bleed” or “X% Elemental Penetration”. And the penetration from area level too.
So far everything was identical to Path of Exile.
The only difference is that PoE has no permanent -75% resistance penetration, LE does. The current way of showing %current res (%uncapped res total) is both consistent with other ARPGs and also seems intuitive to me, but I’m a veteran of many ARPG games.
In Diablo 2, I can go into my inventory and add up all my Fire Resistance, it adds up to 100, but is capped at 75. I take 75% less fire damage. I move. Into Nightmare and my resistances are reduced by 40, I now have 60 Fire Res and take 60% less fire damage. I move into Hell and it reduces my resistances by 100, I now have 0 Fire Res and take 0% less fire damage. These values are reflected in my character sheet and are easy to understand.
In Last Epoch, I add up all my Fire Resistance and I have 100 fire Res, this is reflected in my character sheet noting that it caps at 75%. I don’t take 75% less fire damage. I take 74% less because I’m in area level 1. I move to Area Level 25, I’m now taking 50% less fire damage, my character sheet still says 75%, I move to area level 75 and am now taking 0% less fire damage, my character sheet still says 75% less.
Unless I know about the system, I would assume I’m reducing fire damage, but what I’m actually doing is preventing enemy penetration. The effect comes out to be the same, sure, but I hope you can understand why someone wouldn’t get why they’re taking so much fire damage when they, in any other game, would be reducing that damage by 75% just from resistances.
Same difference as the PoE example above. Diablo 2 also doesn’t have a permanent -75% penetration effect, while LE does.
Everything else in Diablo 2 - Conviction Aura, Decrepify, Lower Res curse and also the difficulty resistance modifiers, are from the Reductions group, which is why you can see them in the character sheet.
The thing is, you are not taking “so much fire damage”. LE is designed with this mechanic in mind. If it wasn’t, you would be permanently taking ~4x incoming damage compared to other ARPGs.
Yes, exactly. And that’s the reason why people complain they are constantly one shot (people Scipo is referring to), because they don’t know LE is designed with this mechanic in mind, and think resistances work the same way it does in other ARPGS.
LE is designed taking critical avoidance, endurance, damage deal to mana before life, life-leech/sustain (and all other many defensive layers) ON top of resistances, which is way less important if you don’t have other layers of defense properly set up.
That’s why people get one shot even when they have capped resistances (even way above 75%, like OP’s case in all his characters), but ignore all other defensive layers available. So they are, indeed, “taking so much fire damage” even with 75% fire res.
The thing that is most unintuitive for new players is simply the way it’s presented. It’s very common for new players to think that, since areas will reduce your resistances by 75%, you should overcap to 150 so you end up with 75%. Which we know isn’t true, but isn’t actually explicit in how EHG presents the whole thing.
Yes & no. If you’re in a lvl 75 area with 75% resist, you’ll take 75% less damage compared to if you had 0% resist. That’s fairly intuitive isn’t it? In PoE, if you have 75% resist you’ll take 1/4 of the damage compared to if you had 0% resist, being 1% undercapped means you take 4% more damage in PoE, but this is intuitive?
That doesn’t make sense though.
AFAIK the only place where a new player can learn about area level penetration in the game, is by reading the article about Penetration in the Game Guide. Game Guide states this:
Penetration subtracts from resistances, causing a source of damage to deal more damage.
Penetration applies after resistances are capped to 75%, and can reduce resistances to negative values.
For example, 30% lightning penetration against 20% lightning resistance will result in -10% lightning resistance.
All enemies gain 1% of penetration per area level, up to a maximum of 75%.
Players with less than 75% of each resistance at area level 75 and beyond will take increased damage due to having negative resistance values.
Enemies gain 1% penetration per area level, capped at 75% in areas level 75 and above. Overcapping resistances above 75% does not help mitigating this penetration.
Why would the new player think that you should overcap to 150, when it literally says “Overcapping does not help”?
Because most players don’t read the guide. Not are they guided to on these issues. They see resistances and assume it works like in every other game, so they don’t look it up.
Most often, they find out about this because someone on chat says resistances are reduced up to 75% with area level, so they assume overcapping is required.
It’s all just a communication issue, really. It’s not really hard to understand if you present it properly.
It would probably be easier if, in the character sheet, it showed resistances capped, resistances uncapped and effective resistances for area level.
To be honest, I think this discussion is being made way more complicated than it needs to be.
While there is the occasional player that is mildy confused by this and needs someone properly explaining it to them. Generally speaking it is a mechanic that can be ignored. It does not really affect the player in any way. it is just a passive variable that is in the background and serves as a way to make the resistance system less punishing.
You can’t “outplay it”, you can’t use it to your advantage. General goal is still to cap resistance, but not quite capping is less punishing.
That’s like saying next time someone mentions computer in chat, I should assume computers exist in this game, because computers exist in other games. And then I’ll go post on the forum about how unintuitive the loot system is, because I assumed I could drop computer-type loot in this game too.
And there’s also the problem that overcapping doesn’t actually help against penetration in ANY game. I’m pretty sure there are NO monsters with penetration effects in Path of Exile or in Diablo 2, so the only way a penetration is applied to you is during PvP.
In Diablo 2 I’m not even sure if there are penetration effects. Even things like Cold Mastery skill in Sorceress are a Reduction, not a Penetration, so the math was a simple (player total res) - (enemy player’s reduction) = (effective cold res) vs. that Cold Sorceress.
It is rare that enemies have penetration, but there are a handful of mechanics that do have this, which makes them especially dangerous if you don’t have a good defensive setup.
I think the most notable example of this would be the Shaper Balls (The Yellow Balls Shaper shoots towards you. They penetrate 25% cold resistance.
The “bullet hell” phase of shaper also penetrates 25% cold resistance.
There are a couple more examples, but that doesn’t do anyhting for this discussion anyway.
PoE has penetration. I just mentioned that it reduces your max resistance if you’re overcapped. What it effectively does is reduce your effective resistance. I just meant that overcap does nothing for this.
Likewise, they also have overwhelm, which does the same thing but for physical damage.
You’re right, it doesn’t. But if someone was curious, they now know to go tank some Shaper Balls and check if their Cold Resistance in the character screen changes after taking the hit
In other games, player can reasonably expect that during the majority of their playtime, resistances are actually reducing incoming damage by the % amount displayed in their character screens. (exceptions apply = Shaper Balls)
In LE endgame, the Penetration effect from Area Level is permanently active, so players’ Resistances are effectively always at 0% (or negative), but this reality isn’t reflected in their character screen. (moving from Empowered Monolith to Champion’s Arena = Resistances shown are the same)
Players that are aware of this mechanic feel that this reality should be reflected in the % Resistances shown in their character screen.
This is already the case with Armor DR%, so it makes sense to happen with Resistances aswell. (moving from Empowered Monolith to Champion’s Arena = Armor DR% shown is different, because Area Level has changed)
But most people aren’t comparing point for point. If I’m taking 100 damage at 0 resists and then I’m taking 25 damage at 75 resists. I reduced damage by 75%. If I’m at 74 resists, I reduce damage by 74% and take 26 damage.
This is intuitive. Just because the effective value of that 1 point is 4% is irrelevant to me.
The example for Last Epoch is comparing my current resists vs incoming damage. Not how each individual point of resistance is equivalent to another point.
In Area lv 75, if I have 65 resists, I’m taking 10% more damage, but my character sheet says I should be taking 75% less damage (from the perspective of a player who’s not aware of how the LE system works.)
I understand LEs mechanic, and don’t want them to change it, it’s just not presented in a way that a typical arpg player will pick up and say “ah yes, I’m currently reducing enemy penetration based on area level.”
