And another week without bug fixes. Given the amount of bugs there should be a fix every 2 days. Guys, the players will run away from you again if it takes that long.
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This take is hot enough to cook eggs on. Tell me you have no idea how software development works without telling me.
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I have very limited knowledge of software developement, but I have been following LE for a while now.
Every time you fix smth or code smth you have to integrate in the main code, then make sure you didnât break smth else in the process. If they were to make a new build every 2 days to fix 3 bugs by 3 bugs they would spent more time making thoses integrations + verification +testing, rather than looking for bugs and trying to fix them.
I do agree with you on one point though, there is still a ton of bugs. Some of thoses quite old. And itâs quite frustrating.
I dont wanna be that guy, but there is only so much âempathyâ you can give even if you know the work is hard.
I worked in cabinet making, its simple but decent work. Do you think clients give a shit their custom order cabinets require extra time and effort? no. of course we have clients that go âoh its okay if its delayed, take your timeâ when its delayed an extra 4 weeks because we are backlogged? they really dont care after a point.
As consumers we really care about the end product, I dont know about software development, and I shouldnt have to. its their job to provide me a product I can use without much fuss.
Frankly as much as I love EHG, this last patch was terrible. Normally as games companies get used to pushing out patches, they have less and less bugs show up on the consumer side, because they are understanding their pipeline better id assume.
So its a real shame that despite the amount of time EHG has been cooking, this latest patch has had so much bugs. Id love to play more of this patch, but stuff like the mono bug, or the unity bug on start up, or jav being still broken with its new unique, it does not make me feel impressed. Especially since the patch cycle leading up to the 0.9 series was really good and smooth, and fixes were sent out in hours instead of weeks.
I also think its strictly different with live service. if I need to make a cabinet over cause I fucked up and the client is unhappy, then its basically a redo. You dont get redoâs in live service. Cause while you are fixing whatever you broke, that broken thing is out in the wild making more users unhappy.
I think its such a hot topic because they plan to remove the beta tag come 1.0, if 1.0 launch is anything like 0.9.1 its gonna be threads like this in droves.
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They have said many times, that the amount of time it takes to get a patch out, even the smaller non-numerically incrementing patches, is quite high, hence they push out patches for the most egregious issues in the first week or two then not much till the next large patch (usually once every 3 months).
Funny you mention that, 0.8.5 came out on the 17th March, 0.8.5b 22nd March, 0.8.5c 29th March, 0.8.5d 13th April, 0.8.5e 26th April, 0.8.5f 3rd May. While they may push out a hotfix in a few hours if a patch totally borks something up, thatâs pretty rare.
0.9.2 came out on 5th Sep, then 0.9.2a on 9th Sep, 0.9.2b 14th Sep, 0.9.2c 21st Sep & 0.9.2f 5th Oct (with d & e both being DoA between 21st Sep & 5th Oct).
So before MP, they were getting patches out every 1-2 weeks, now theyâre doing it anywhere up to a week. Probably because of the issue you mention in your penultimate paragraph. 0.9.1 & itâs patches were similar though it also had 0.9.1d1-3 which came out much faster.
This analogy would work better if you said, âhereâs your chair, use if for a while, come back and let me know if there are things thatâs not working or needs improved.â Because what weâve all âbought intoâ is this is still a beta. The CONTRACT between us and EHG is that we know there will be a shit ton of bugs. They will work to the best of their abilities to get them fixed all the while continue to hone and add to the piece weâre already playing.
I have empathy but no sympathy for someone who buys beta software, clicks on the box acknowledging itâs beta software, and then complains about the bugs. They certainly have every right to make those complaints. I just donât have any sympathy for it.
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It has nothing to do with empathy, and everything to do with talking out of the wrong orifice.
It takes a complete and total lack of knowledge about how software development works to say something as ridiculous as âBug fix patches should happen every two daysâ. Nothing about it is valid and everything about it is entitled, petty, and childish. Full stop, period, end of sentence.
Iâm not going to bother going into the âThis is a beta, expect bugs, get over itâ despite that I agree with it, because that issue is secondary to the level of ignorance inherent in demanding such a rapid release cycle for a project of this size and complexity. It probably takes more than two days just for their QA to validate a release.
Which is exactly why the words that come out of your digital mouth should not include demands on how rapidly bugs are fixed or patches are released. You donât know anything relevant to the process of that happening, which if you hadnât told me outright I would have known immediately because you tried to compare it to cabinet making.
And yet plenty of software does do that. Hell third party add-ons are able to send out updates on a regular basis.
Again, no hate to ehg, but its really funny that any time anyone has any sort of feedback on anything in this day and age you have hecklers who are like âum acktually u dont know anything so ur feedback is invalidâ
No one cares about that stuff. They just want a product that works. And its been more often then not, that the one these forums are based around happens to launch in a ever worsening state.
I guess I really just dont understand, because I keep release a worse and worse experience, I lose my job and clients. I guess in software that does not apply and its okay to just happen to put out poor releases that are buggy.
Mistakes happen, should they repeatedly happen over and over to detriment of the user base?
This whole effort to say that from development perspective all these bugs are within normality, well, there as a time I was in love with the game, and I still believe itâs great, but I dont buy it.
Iâm not demanding anything, but itâs bad, plain bad, specially when the game aims new audiences.
The same old bugs, patch after patch they continue or reappear, making it easy to any user, new or veteran, to make a complain.
Couldnât this loading issue be treated with more effort?
With more resources, with a better approach.
Before online patch in 0.85 version my game crashed like hell.
I came back to the game in March with 0.9 and it was much better, rarely the game gave unity errors.
Now with 0.92 Iâm having unity crashes every hour or so.
Every new patch is like they are navigating in unknown territory and the result will always be highly unpredictable. In my mind I imagine things in a way they should target something stable at all costs and donât mess with itđ¤.
0.9 was the big transition, merge 2 clients and all that talk. But it has been more than 6 months and old problems reappearing.
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Cracking your whip and demanding EHG fix bugs isnât âfeedbackâ.
You knowingly purchased an early access game. Complaining that is unfinished isnât helpful to anyone.
An actual piece of feedback would be something more along the lines of âEHGâs communication surrounding bugs could be improvedâ, not âIf I was this bad at my job, I would be fired!â.
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The early access excuse is too old now. Disregarding what EHG is doing lets take a look at their competitors; they are releasing content in a timed window without caring anymore what the others are doing except their timing of the release:
PoE has August - December league then a new league, this is already confirmed
D4 - has a new league October 17 and they will do another in February most likely
Torchlight did a new league in September⌠already one confirmed for Janurary
EHG - fixing login bugs - but according to OP above âits early access so fk you hahah shouldnt of bought itâ
Torchlight a game which came out of nowhere a year ago made by a chinese developer manages to do a whole league, multiple new classes, reworked crafting every single league. This league they deleted 90% of their crafting materials to streamline the game, this would be like EHG testing removing their âFire res shardsâ but they cant do this as they are still trying to patch basic bugs, not experimenting with moving their game forward
Pretty sure EHG has more active staff than D4 as well but yet still floundering around with bugs that shouldnt really exist
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Grim Dawn is having a pretty major game overhaul patch this year and will be getting another expansion next year.
Titan Quest 2 has also been announced.
Also devs have responded here: I want to recommend Last Epoch to my friends but i will not / rant : LastEpoch
Personally I think they should spend a month or two just for the new masteries for bugfixing and balancing(either as closed test or as a patch 0.9.9). Would be terrible if the new masteries on release are overtuned and everyone loves them only to be hated after balance/bug fixing. The opposite would also be horrible if they are Forge guard tier on release and donât receive updates since it would be low priority. 1.0 will lose the early access excuse and first impressions will definitely matter to new players.
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Yeah, no.
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Yes they do. And all of them have some combination of:
- Smaller project
- Less complicated project
- Significantly larger team
- Global team
Comparing an entire game to a third party addon just continues to show that your opinion on what the frequency of their release cycle should be is bunk. Youâre so far from understanding how this actually works that you canât even come up with an analogy for it.
Yeah, itâs ironic-funny to me too that some people need to be told that demanding changes to a process they havenât the first clue about isnât feedback. âBUGS STILL EXIST, I AM MAD, YOU SHOULD RELEASE FASTERâ is not feedback. Itâs not constructive, itâs not useful, and itâs not even based on anything real. Itâs nothing more than what my 5 year old does when her mother hasnât yet handed her a snack because sheâs in the middle of driving on the freeway.
Iâm here telling you and others that youâre out to lunch because I do understand this how this works, and I know that when there are big problems with big impacts nobody is happy about it, everybody is busting their ass on them, and itâs endlessly frustrating to care that much and be working hard while having to stomach entitled people playing the High Five Each Other game by making angry, rude, uninformed, condescending comments on forums about you not working hard enough and/or being incompetent, because the shackles of professionalism keeps you from giving them the tongue lashing they actually deserve.
You push back on that because your ego demands it, not because you have any valid reason to.
Software in the open beta stage of its development is not a product.
Yeah. Thatâs the whole point. One of your customers isnât going to bring in a cabinet with a broken hinge, and then when you replace their hinge the glass on another customerâs door falls out. The cabinet youâre building canât glue itself shut because a guy in a different cabinet factory changed the design of the cabinet heâs building. You have absolutely no basis or frame of reference to talk about how this process should or shouldnât be done, and if you had a reasonable view that would mean you wouldnât be talking about it.
Yes, it is perfectly acceptable for a video game to have buggy releases during its open beta period, because that is the whole point of an open beta. You keep talking about the job you would lose if you kept making cabinets that broke or whatever, but what do you think would happen if you were employed as a QA tester and constantly complained that you had to test bugs? You signed up to test the software. What do you not get about that? Youâre not here to give feedback on their dev pipeline, youâre here to give feedback on the gameplay features and find bugs. Professionals get paid assloads of money to do what some of yall are trying to do here, because making a game that doesnât have bugs isnât solved by pithy nonsense statements like JUST RELEASE FASTER.
Ease of complaint does not equal validity of complaint. To wit:
Quantify how much effort they are currently spending on the loading issue. What priority level is assigned to the ticket? How many engineers and QA do they have currently investigating and working on it, and what level are they - junior, mid level, senior? How many man-hours in total have been spent on it? What do they know about the cause? What are the current challenges to implementing a fix for it? After that, lay out how much of each of those things they should be allocating instead, and how much faster it would be resolved using your recommendations. Then also lay out which other issues and features you would triage or reassign in order to put more resources on the loading issues, and why.
Sorry, can you not actually do that? Do you get it yet? Or are you gonna keep going on like you think EHG is just collectively sitting around going, âSure weâve got this login bug that keeps people from playing the game, but itâs Donut Week, so itâll just have to wait. Itâs Early Access, they knew what they were getting.â
You donât get to be all huffy and self righteous about there not being enough effort when you have no idea how much effort is being expended. âIâm not happy that this bug that keeps me from playing hasnât been fixed yetâ is the end of what itâs valid for you to express, and even that doesnât need to be said because no shit.
LOL
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The hype created by the popular streamers is causing all this nonsense.
People are not thinking and they demand instant solutions.
Just so you know - GGG (Path of Exile) has 12 people working on 3 month content windows right now, thats why they are a bit delayed. TWELVE PEOPLE, the rest work on PoE2âŚapparently
When I say active I mean actual D4 staff members working on new content would probably be lower than the whole of EHG working on one game, do you really think D4 has the same active staff as the game being made to maintain some shitty seasons? They just outsource some Chinese graphics company to some team to make art, âbalanceâ the mechanics of a boss already with with a new skin from another boss, do about an hours work changing their numbers then call it day
Even their Legendaries are trash and barely interesting to require testing at all. Druid Patch notes was 3 lines.
Nah we paid for a product that would eventually be released one day, If you want to look at it like that this should of all been free early access and then once the game was released everyone was locked out and had to buy the game; since we are providing crucial feedback about the game it apparently couldnt be made without people giving feedback. If the game was free we could never complain as âfree game no bitchingâ right? Same logic as PoE
I have been here for years now and theres something fundamentally wrong with the making of this game, its far too slow, one can only speculate why this isâŚyou either have developers too slow or they constantly keep biding their time waiting for the âoptimalâ time to release while seemingly looking at other companies failures and not taking the plungeâŚie Wolcen/D4.
Maybe EHG should practice better communication, even if its a weekly post of a paragraphâŚto let people know whats going on. I have no idea where this game is right now development wise, no idea if a new end game system is being worked on
I dont give a shit about the bugs, there will always be bugs, no developer (hopefully) would wilfully add shitty bugs degrading the experience of the game. This game needs to be released into 1.0 with the new masteries. I would highly recommend an analyst at EHG look at what XD (Torchlight Infinite) developers have done over the last year since the game was in early access then went full release in Season2 and even since then have made quite huge changes into Season 4, they are not afraid to make fairly big changes. The most recent was this season they deleted almost all crafting Embers which are like Shards in LE and changed the cost to another resource which was not being consumed. Embers were like most Shards in LE, huge abundance and no value to anyone so they just removed them after 3 Seasons
Simply put leagues/seasons are fantastic at working out your games problems and solving them going forward, right now we have a contained singular running Standard league, when is there going to be a test Cycle I feel things like this and the end game system teased over 6 months ago which caused a lot of questions has already been forgotten
Thre is no need for a discussion here. For whatever reason EHG isânt communicating they release the game this year. This year is as good as done and they have a TON of stuff to deliver and to test.
Most likely theyâll push content into the game like if they were a pregnant lady but itâll be most likely equaly messy. I donât think we see small patches bugfixing stuff that isnât gamebreakingly broken. They have far bigger fish to fry.
I know this is rather your point, but, which one? Factions/trading?
Iâm not so sure about that. Company I work for pretty much rolls out hotfixes every couple of days. I think it pretty much depends on how large of scope your hotfix/patch/version is shooting for. You canât tell me if feature XYZ completely broke the game, that it would take weeks to get fixed because⌠thatâs how software development works. Blizzard used to hotfix broken stuff within hours of a patch or release dropping. Itâs not impossible, now matter how little someone knows about software development. This smoke and mirrors doesnât hide, or change, the fact that there has been broken stuff lingering around for weeks, if not months now. Obviously, some are getting frustrated about it, and all the condescending responses sure arenât helping things.
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You all forgett Steam in you little mind games. I was testing stuff for a little dev studio and because Steam messed up the validation of one patch took 5 days ^^. On top of it do you remember New World when they said they are only alowed to patch once a week because of server contract stuff?
There are bazillions of reasons outside of EHG working crunch time ^^.
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