Time invested to reward gained

[Arcades]

With regard to crafting, I think the system is great insofar as it’s relatively straight forward and you can achieve “max” items (4x T5) without any trading, though you do need a bit of luck. I dislike POE’s system because it’s much more convoluted and a much longer grind to get one “max” item than in LE.

LE is still young, so I could see the crafting system growing with new powerful shards that will also be a form of trading currency down the road. I would love if the following shards existed:

1. Transfer stats from one base item to another.
2. Store a T7/T6 roll from one item to be crafted onto another in the future (this would have to be exceedingly rare).
3. “Lock” an affix such that it becomes immune to Runes of Removal/Cleaning.

Things such as the above would make crafting more controllable, which is what I love so much about the LE system. It’s hard to control the base loot or whatever algorithm assigns affixes in the first place, though it would be nice if T6/T7 were exclusive to the top tier items. Of course, if a “affix storing” rune ever does into play, then the more possibilities for T6/T7 to show up the better.

As for Monoliths and Blessing farming, unless you’re keen on placing on the Ladder, once, you’re able to beat the Empowered bosses in MoF, then you’ve already conquered the end game (for now). So, if you’re feeling worn down by the grind, either roll an alt or take a break for awhile.

While it does suck to spend an hour or so grinding out 25-30 Monoliths only to get a subpar blessing choice or power roll, repetitive farming is a core component to ARPG gameplay. A slow power creep is what keeps us playing. The irony is that if you instantly got the best loot and the best blessings right away, you would probably quit the game due to lack of goals, rather than lack of rewards.

[McFluffin]

@Muspellheimer

im sorry but that happens all the time to me because im not the guy who grinds for one item for weeks

@Zylok

The amount of min/maxing will depend also on dps calculation tools. Don’t know if something like PoB will ever exist for LE , but with the actual tooltip dps is hard sometimes to be sure if a build is “optimized”

True min/maxing in this game would require perfectly rolled tier 28s with the right affixes and perfectly rolled blessings that are exactly right as well. The blessings are “technically” doable, but the tier 28s are effectively impossible. So no one can ever truly min/max in this game even now.

[doombybbr]

@darkdeal

Arena isn’t supposed to be for gearing though. It is the competition to get on the ladder.

It should be BOTH.
It should at least be competing with monolith if you are running a super tanky build that gets into the 200 mark. Even builds that are MADE for arena are better off running mono right now.

If all I get from arena is my name at rank 120 on a leaderboard I am not all that happy and feel that I wasted my time.

[JCourtney]

I’d like to see some rare “unique” like affixes be available, so we could essentially craft our own build changing items.

[Macknum]

There is a whole item rarity not implemented yet… let’s see what EHG has up their sleeves.

[McFluffin]

@doombybbr

If all I get from arena is my name at rank 120 on a leaderboard I am not all that happy and feel that I wasted my time.

Then arena is probably not catering to your playstyle, which is fine. Outside of community tournaments it doesnt really appeal to me either. But there is a group of players who want it for competitive purposes, and i think it’s good that we have that. I wouldn’t really want it to be any more than that, because i think outside of the competitive side its a boring system, so I would rather not be incentivized to do it for reasons other than the leaderboard.

[asdfractal]

@Heavy

I personally never had the feeling of “no progress” in LE, probably mainly because i play solo and gold and crafting shards always feel like some progress.
Also exp is progress and grinding up to lvl 100 actually takes a looong time (which i like).

From seeing your comments in a few threads we have very different playstyles and priorities. Of course each of our opinion is valid, but very different. To me just gaining shards and gold is not character progress, and levelling past a certain point doesn’t feel very impactful (which I don’t think is a problem).

Perhaps if (when?) there is a trading system and some sort of marketplace I would consider farming currency progress as I could use it to buy a really good item.

I’m very interested in end game challenges, I’m not that interested in making 20 different characters and getting them all to around 70 or something. I like the process of levelling and building up my character, testing skills, etc. but then I want to take it to hard content and push it. Right now that means arena, which I actually do enjoy because it’s challenging at high waves and I like the competitive nature.

I do understand that this is still early access, and more end game is being added to the game. I’m very excited about that but also think it’s important to discuss these things now because I can see it also compounding to become a bigger problem down the line. If, for example the next end game activity is significantly harder than monoliths and having good blessings is a big deal, or in a multiplayer (potential raid like encounter) there are considered BiS blessings for certain class/party compositions, then suddenly the grind is much more real to more people.

It could be completely different but that is also why I gave a few examples of things that I see from a higher level of being a design philosophy. To a certain degree there needs to be this sort of design to keep people playing, but finding the balance is key. If the carrot is way out of reach the motivation to chase it is diminished.

@Arcades

With regard to crafting, I think the system is great insofar as it’s relatively straight forward and you can achieve “max” items (4x T5) without any trading, though you do need a bit of luck. I dislike POE’s system because it’s much more convoluted and a much longer grind to get one “max” item than in LE.

On some points I agree with you but on others I don’t, especially with recent changes to PoE. It may be like you almost need a PhD in crafting but even me with my undergraduate has created stronger items in less time than I have in LE. I do really like the fundamental ideas behind LE crafting but I think if there was actually some math done on how likely it is to get a 4xT5 item it would be ridiculously low. The amount of times you’re crafting with 75-80% success chance almost guarantees a fracture before 4xT5, especially because once you get to T16/17 there is a much higher chance and damaging comes into play.

To be clear though I think PoE is far too complex and inaccessible to most people.

@Arcades

While it does suck to spend an hour or so grinding out 25-30 Monoliths only to get a subpar blessing choice or power roll, repetitive farming is a core component to ARPG gameplay. A slow power creep is what keeps us playing. The irony is that if you instantly got the best loot and the best blessings right away, you would probably quit the game due to lack of goals, rather than lack of rewards.

That’s why the balance is key. 6 hours and not improving character at all is not slow power creep.

[Heavy]

@asdfractal

From seeing your comments in a few threads we have very different playstyles and priorities.

Possibly, maybe, i don’t know.

@asdfractal

To me just gaining shards and gold is not character progress, and levelling past a certain point doesn’t feel very impactful (which I don’t think is a problem).

The gold and shard “progress” is definitely only present in the early/mid game, while playing the story and early monolith.

This get’s way less, once you accumulated alot of shards already and only some very rare shards become important.

I also agree that the last few levels are not that impactful, but that’s ok.
The last few levels are truely for min-maxing, for that few more passive points and slightly more base hp and mana.

And as i said, i think that’s fine, because people that don’t want to grind too long for it don’t feel like they miss “major power”.
But then again for people who truely want to min-max it’s still enough incentive to reach lvl 100 IMO.
Especially once we get a death penalty, reaching lvl 100 will become a true achievement.

@asdfractal

I’m very interested in end game challenges, I’m not that interested in making 20 different characters and getting them all to around 70 or something.

Sounds like we are not that different in terms of playstyle and priorities.

Usually i also only play 1 or 2 “main” chars i try to min-max to the fullest.

Currently i definitely hold my self back alittle bit on that, because i don’t want to get burn out from my favorite builds already. So i am very stoked for more endgame activities.

Currently the most “content” for me is building new chars around certain skill combinations or certain unique/set items.
But i definitely play chars/builds i enjoy at least up to lvl 80/85 before moving to the next char.

@asdfractal

I like the process of levelling and building up my character, testing skills, etc. but then I want to take it to hard content and push it. Right now that means arena, which I actually do enjoy because it’s challenging at high waves and I like the competitive nature.

Playing a new char and growing with the build is abolutely amazing in LE. It’s the only aRPG where i actually enjoy playing more than 1 or 2 chars.

But for me “testing” a build ot it’s limits means pushing empowered MoF as high as possible, instead of playing arena.

It’s cool that there are people whop enjoy arena and leaderboards, but for me the game mode does not offer anything.

I literally played tried to really push arena ONCE, a few days ago and got to Rank 36 or so with a unoptimised character.
I think they would need to add more boss-type monsters, complete boss waves and maybe some very thematic waves into the mix to make it somwhow appealing to me.

@asdfractal

there are considered BiS blessings for certain class/party compositions, then suddenly the grind is much more real to more people.

I don’t see this happening. The blessing pools for the most part are very diverse and there are no BiS blessings for a whole class/mastery, not at all.

For certain specific builds this might be the case, where you really don’t have much otehr options than one specific blessing, but even that is rare i think.

@asdfractal

The amount of times you’re crafting with 75-80% success chance almost guarantees a fracture before 4xT5, especially because once you get to T16/17 there is a much higher chance and damaging comes into play.

That’s why the crafting system does not exists completely on it’s own, but is a complementary system for the “loot hunt”.

LE wants you to go out, kill monsters, obtain items. And those already decent items should be crafted.

@asdfractal

@Arcades

While it does suck to spend an hour or so grinding out 25-30 Monoliths only to get a subpar blessing choice or power roll, repetitive farming is a core component to ARPG gameplay. A slow power creep is what keeps us playing. The irony is that if you instantly got the best loot and the best blessings right away, you would probably quit the game due to lack of goals, rather than lack of rewards.

That’s why the balance is key. 6 hours and not improving character at all is not slow power creep.

While your main goal might be farming a specific blessing and not getting what you want can feel a bit frustrating for some people, don#t forget that you get tons of loot in the process of “grinding that blessing”.

[Evok]

@Heavy

While your main goal might be farming a specific blessing and not getting what you want can feel a bit frustrating for some people, don#t forget that you get tons of loot in the process of “grinding that blessing”.

Yes but the quality of that loot? and the blessings themselves wow. Thanks to @Heavy I have now completed 6 timelines. For 4 of them the blessings I got to choose from were pathetic. 25% increase in the drop rate for shields? and that was the best choice offered. Sorry but I do not consider that time well spent.

[Heavy]

@Evok

For 4 of them the blessings I got to choose from were pathetic. 25% increase in the drop rate for shields? and that was the best choice offered. Sorry but I do not consider that time well spent.

That is just an issue of exceptation.

5 out of 10 blessing slots give meta blessings, which don’t incease your character power directly, but influence how much items/shards of specific kinds drop.

Those pools are on a per timeline basis, so a meta-stat blessing does not compete with a non-meta stat blessing.

The 5 timelines that currently give character power are: The Black Sun, Ending The Storm, Reign Of Dragons, Spirits Of Fire, Age Of Winter

[Evok]

Thanks that is very useful info. Unfortunately It doesn’t change what I said. The issue is time well spent and what you’ve posted says that half of the timelines are in fact pretty much a waste of time. That is not good game design IMO.

[Heavy]

I say again what i said above.

Timelines not only give you Blessings, they also give you boss-specific loot and regular drops from the monsters in the echoes/chest.

So it’s never “time wasted”. never.

On top of that you can skip 3 timelines that give meta-stat blessing entirely. (“The Stolen Lance”, “Blood, Frost and Death” and “Fall Of The Empire”)
These are not required for any major progress in the MoF System.
The only Timelines you need to do, that give meta-blessings would be the very first one (Fall of the Outcasts) and one of the new ones, to unlock empowered timelines (The Last Ruin).

The “Fall of the Outcasts” one probably gives some of the most impactful blessings (specific idols and experience) together with some other cool ones.

If you don’t like the meta-blessings that fine, but there are definitely no “waste of time”, if you are able to get one that benefits your build.
It’s probably an issue of newer player don’t know yet what they need for their build, but getting a blessing that increases certain item type drops early in their character progress can actually lead to a faster and easier progress of gear.

[Evok]

Once again thanks for the info. I can say for sure what you’ve posted is not common knowledge and yes some of this will help newer players. However they are the ones that actually need to know how it works. As far as the general loot itself goes I am finding I have to work very hard to even find something worth putting in my very large stash never mind being useful on the character I’m running these with, so after playing for a certain amount of time the general loot itself is not much of a draw. All of this excluding players who are going SSF of course.

What I can tell you for certain is that I’ve been back to the game for a couple of weeks now and I’m losing my desire to play it again. I know I’m speaking only for myself but that is always the strongest indicator to me. Do I feel like my “wasted” time (all gaming is time wasted) is worth it or am I just becoming too aware of the grind. Once the latter happens…

[Shtrak]

@Evok

half of the timelines are in fact pretty much a waste of time

It’s not a waste when you get a blessing that helps you find stuff. Unless you play one only hero with one only build, of course. Half blessings give you power, half blessings help your grind. I’m not very happy with that, but I feel it sounds fair.

[Heavy]

@Evok

Once again thanks for the info. I can say for sure what you’ve posted is not common knowledge and yes some of this will help newer players. However they are the ones that actually need to know how it works

That is a very good point.
This is excellent feedback from the PoV of a newer/unexperienced player.

It think having a better understanding of the fundamental system and it’s rewards, will give player more clear “goals”, of what they think will be worth for their own playtime.

Having Large Blessing Pools, in which the majority of blessings are useless for a given build, can be frustrating, but if you know what the rewards could be might incentives you to play more.

Maybe some player prefer to be surprised, i don’t know.

@Evok

As far as the general loot itself goes I am finding I have to work very hard to even find something worth putting in my very large stash never mind being useful on the character I’m running these with, so after playing for a certain amount of time the general loot itself is not much of a draw.

Hm, i do have completely different experience.
Even after literally playing this game thousands of hours i still get items worth keeping for a normal stash(if i play on a normal character) or at least i am getting items that are worthy to be crafted on.

Of course not all items i get that i start to craft on will become actual upgrades, some will frature before being better than my own items, some will be a side.grade with slightly shifted stats.

But for me it’s always exciting getting new items to craft on, that are potentially an upgrade.

I think alot comes down to player expectations.
I hear alot of people being upset about how many items fracture.
I don’t feel that way, i do like the feeling of that one final item wokring out, after 30 tries.

[Shtrak]

@Heavy

The only Timelines you need to do, that give meta-blessings would be the very first one (Fall of the Outcasts) and one of the new ones, to unlock empowered timelines (The Last Ruin).

You need to complete the three new ones to unlock empowered timelines. If you unlock only this one, it will not work. Last Ruin is the one I finished second (after Heorot and before the Fire guys), it did not unlock anything, I had to complete the last one before.

[Heavy]

Read my text again

I did say exactly what you said.
I was only talking about how many timelines that do not give character power you need to complete.

[Shtrak]

Maybe I misunderstood the exact meaning when you wrote “the only timelines you need to do… to unlock empowered timelines”. Tired I am, get some rest I must.

[Evok]

That might be your experience but it’s not mine. I see no difference from these blessings at all. Maybe it’s because so much loot drops already? To use my example above I already got way more shields dropping than I needed. Increasing that amount did nothing to improve my situation. Oh and yes I have many characters to use the stuff on.

[Arcades]

Your character power is controlled by three things: Gear (including Idols), Blessings and Passives/Skills. How is it a waste of time to have a permanent drop rate increase for 4 of the Monoliths? If you’re min/maxing your character, there’s likely a gear slot that could use the most improvement. Also, each of those 4 Monoliths has gear unique to the boss that can be build defining. The Stolen Lance (God Hunter Argentus) probably has the best loot table in the game between his regeneration set and his empowered chest that gives 40% DR while moving (Rogues and Warpath builds).

It feels like you have a predetermined narrative in your head and you’re ignoring all evidence to the contrary, rather than engaging in discussion.