This game will fail if they don't change the GB/CA meta

[Llama8]

@boardman21

To break it down… with a 1h/shield there are 11 slots… thats 44 affixes. You only need 4 to get 100% GB. 22 suffixes which will almost always be used for resist/dodge/hp/maybe CA if you want it. 4 Prefix for 50% DR or 22 Suffix for (if your lucky) 75% DR. I mean… where does the problem really lay…

I would probably argue that GB appears mandatory because it’s so much more effective/powerful than any other affix. I don’t think you’d get 50% damage reduction (dots notwithstanding) for just 4 t5 affix slots.

If you flip things round & DPS affixes are dominant/required (I’m thinking of D3), certain amounts of DPS affixes (crit chance & crit multi) are mandatory because they give the most bang for the buck to get you as far as possible.

As theorycrafting gets more mature, things like this will crop up. Certain numbers of specific affixes will be deemed mandatory (for certain builds) as they give they the most benefit for the limited resource we have (affix slots). Glancing Blow is the low hanging fruit because it’s so useful to all builds.

[boardman21]

@Llama8

I would probably argue that GB appears mandatory because it’s so much more effective/powerful than any other affix. I don’t think you’d get 50% damage reduction (dots notwithstanding) for just 4 t5 affix slots.

4 T5 Prefix Set Elemental will give you more than 50% DR (IncludingDotsExcludingArmorVoidPOisNecro)

But my point of this whole thing was… What are you really going to do with those 4 slots…

(Spoiler Below)

Defense… Myabe on gloves/belt add damage but almost an unnoticable amount. I just dont understand why its got so many so upset. Im way more upset and frustrated trying to balance 6 different armour and protections to 70% DR + in only 22 suffix slots.

[Llama8]

Defense… Myabe on gloves/belt add damage but almost an unnoticable amount. I just dont understand why its got so many so upset.

You’re preaching to the choir…

[AndrewTilley]

@boardman21

But my point of this whole thing was… What are you really going to do with those 4 slots…

@boardman21

I just dont understand why its got so many so upset.

Kind of sounds like you answered your own question here. What could possibly be better to use in those 4 prefix slots other than GB? Currently there is nothing.

I’d personally only be worried about GB if it becomes a stat the dev’s balance damage around because everyone is supposed to have it. But if everyone has it, then why would we need it? And if it’s not a stat we need, then maybe there should be prefixes that can compete with it (which seems more to your original point). You also mention the bigger picture, which we can’t see yet. Maybe the implementation of all these mechanics we have now will be more clear to us after everything is implemented. If this is the case, then patience will be key.

[mistawha]

Hopefully you do realize that the base game is already added. They won’t be adding more stats to compete with GB/CA. Honestly, this game has a stat issue badly. And it is what will hurt the game. It’s obvious by the amount of comments on this post that it is an issue with players. I’m not sure why they think they need to redevelop base ARPG mechanics. I’ve seen white mobs in this game hit harder and have more hp than rare mobs which completely ruins the flow of a game. Then you have builds where if you dont use ward/ca/gb, you cant get pass wave 100+. Or how about how HP stacking is pretty much useless in this game. HP in general is useless in this game. No ways to get mana back other than regen? Just really weird choices to make your game different.

[Macknum]

@AndrewTilley

I’d personally only be worried about GB if it becomes a stat the dev’s balance damage around because everyone is supposed to have it. But if everyone has it, then why would we need it?

This. Right now there are even builds that don’t need GB and they come even further ahead of builds that ALWAYS NEED 100% GB because if they don’t use it they’ll die. There could be a much more intresting stat there and GB could simply be gone for good a could be a rogue mechanic because it makes sense for a dodgy sterotype class. As I said in another thread or even this thread I realy want to see people who play Werebear or Void Knight for example with and without 100% GB to see the difference and the need to have this stat maxed at all times.

The devs stated they don’t want % cap protections because it’ll be mandatory and makes building gear a bigger problem because you always need to stack enough protection to reach the cap. No we have a madatory stat we need to max on classes to reach a said protection value. I’ll go so far to call it mandatory on most classes even when there are ways arround it but it suffers from the same mechanic because you need X ammount of GB like you need X ammount of resistences in other games… what the devs wanted to avoid. This is simply the direct opposit of their idea from the beginning.

[XLVI_carpo]

@mistawha

Or how about how HP stacking is pretty much useless in this game. HP in general is useless in this game.

Would you please explain why you think so? A char with 100 hp and 100 (all) protections (50% damage mitigation) has the exact same survivability as a character with 200 hp and 0 (all) protections (0% mitigation). The first will take 50 damage from a hit that deals 100 damage. The second will take double the damage compared to the first. But both have 50% of their hp left and will die with the next 100 damage hit. No difference. Protections and hp are equally important.

@Macknum

we have a madatory stat we need to max on classes to reach a said protection value. I’ll go so far to call it mandatory on most classes even when there are ways arround it but it suffers from the same mechanic because you need X ammount of GB like you need X ammount of resistences in other games…

“Mandatory” seems to be the new synonym for “bad”. All other protections are mandatory as well in LE not just in other games. Without any protections you can cap GB/CA/Dodge/Block, but you won’t come very far (except ward builds).

When you do a ward build the mandatory passives are ward retention and the mandatory stat is int.

When I wanna make a crit build it’s mandatory to take all crit notes on a skill and craft +critchance and multiplier on gear.

And when you want to survive you have to stack hp+protections.

Wanna do damage? Use a weapon. Stack damage. Mandatory.

This posts sums it up for me:

@LizardIRL

The thing is, even if they remove or nerf GB, something would took its place on first “mandatory” tier affix. In fact, many builds need other mandatory affixes to run properly.
It could be prots, it could be dodge, or just %damage mitigation from other sources.
Its just part of ARPGs, you collect this stat, then this other stat, etc.

[Macknum]

Yeah your nitpicking still don’t change anything about it ^^. The devs said they don’t want to use the good old % resistence stuff and try something new because it is to restricting if you want to change your gear. Now we have a % dmg reduction that is restricting in the same way. Sure sooner or later it’s only 4 slots needed but it’s simply bad by design from my point of view.

[Llama8]

I think that if they did remove Glancing Blow, something else would become the new mandatory, that’s what metas are & they will always develop when some elements of the community wants to get the most effect out of their character.

[boardman21]

@Macknum

Yeah your nitpicking still don’t change anything about it ^^. The devs said they don’t want to use the good old % resistence stuff and try something new because it is to restricting if you want to change your gear. Now we have a % dmg reduction that is restricting in the same way. Sure sooner or later it’s only 4 slots needed but it’s simply bad by design from my point of view.

So we know for a fact more types of ruins/shards are coming, what happens when one comes that competes with GB? I.E. 4 prefix slots gives 100% GB for 50% DR or 4 Prefix slots for 25 ward a second per item with this affix… I mean would you take 400 ward/s or 100%GB as a necro/lich/spellblade/sorcerer?? I stand by i think we should wait to see everything there is to offer before askign to remove 1 from the game…

[XLVI_carpo]

Thank god I am no game developer. When a game copies the mechanics of another game there come people “Meh, y copy crappy mechanic, boring, lazy!11”. When devs implemented new mechanics there come people “Meh, y reinvent the wheel? Game X does this, game Y does this. Y not do the same?!11”.

You just can’t make it right

[darkdeal]

Yea, I don’t get the people saying to just do what every other ARPG has done. What would be the point in playing if it was just a carbon copy? I like the different systems. I just want GB and CA to be brought into line with the rest of protections/health/ward/dodge when it comes to scaling. I don’t think anything should have a static cap, let alone one at 100%.

[Llama8]

@XLVI_carpo

You just can’t make it right

Welcome to people.

How about, if Glancing Blow/Crit Avoidance gave increasing effect rather than increasing chance? That way you could have the maths such that 100% effect (ie, 50% damage taken for for glancing blow & 0% extra damage taken from crits) is difficult to obtain or you have to sacrifice a lot of affix slots to get it.

[JustLoveHnS]

And here we go again
Regularity of creating such topics proves that LE has real problems with its defense attributes. No matter which exactly!

• Ward is to strong.
• Glancing blows are mandatory.
• Critical avoidance is very specific.
• Dodge is unreliable.
• Protections… well, it’s pretty OK but why do we need this attribute with all above?
• HP regeneration… Do all agree it’s nonexistent?

I wrote it before and can only repeat myself: those layers must be complementary with each other - not mutually exclusive, AND all those layers should gave a bit different roles.
Here, some examples, like I see it in general …

1. Maximum HP: Almost the same here - just increasing max HP. Buuuut… all other defenses reduces incoming damage which means that your recovery becomes more effective. So, lets give a character passive regeneration - 5% of max / second. Not 10 HP / sec, but 5%. It will guarantee that every character with any maximum HP will be fully recovered in 20 seconds. Also Max HP becomes a real defense layer, not just some number, protecting you from one-shots.

2. HP regeneration: well, because of previous change this one becomes more effective. Obviously any bonuses to regeneration should be greater than a benefit from increasing maximum HP. Anyway, +100% to regeneration makes your character able to recover in 10 seconds instead of 20.

3. Ward: Make retention constant ~15%, unaffected by INT, much lesser bonuses from any passives and nodes, some effect from uniques. INT should increase Ward-gain - not retention. It allows to grant ward to non-INT-characters - new buff mechanics. Ward gain should be less but ward should not decrease damage reduction from protections. No Lots-of-K-s ward anymore - just some HP-above-cap generation mechanics.

4. Dodge / Glancing blow: hm… how about uniting these mechanics ? And I’ve got a better idea then previous one - much simpler . Every 1 dodge decreases chance to be hit by 1% and reduces damage received from direct hits by 1%. Normally expected max. amount equals 30-35% which means that overall incoming damage will be reduces by 51-58%. Every 5 points of dexterity increases dodge by 2%.

5. Critical avoidance -> Resilience: Reduces all taken damage over time and critical damage. I mean, why should we be able to get critical immunity? Damage reduction - yes, critical chance reduction - no. Against DoTs we currently have protections and really bad regeneration, so I think it would be a nice layer of defense. Reduction formula should be similar to current dodge with the cap near 70% I guess.

6. Protections / Armor: well, they are pretty OK, I think. But the fact its effectiveness lowers with HP growth… ehm… I don’t know … How about to increase their effectiveness with every lost HP ? You have 100 health and 100 protection? - good, because all incoming damage decreases by 50%. But with 400 health damage reduction equals 20%. Why not increase it to 50% when health drops to 100 ?

P.S. Sorry for this wall. I was hoping I could be shorter this time

[Macknum]

@JustLoveHnS

Why not increase it to 50% when health drops to 100 ?

Because builds that effectivly loose health will be immortal at a certain point? I think everything else is good feedback.

[boardman21]

@Macknum

@JustLoveHnS

Why not increase it to 50% when health drops to 100 ?

Because builds that effectivly loose health will be immortal at

Yeah low life lich at 5 health would have 99% protections lol. Be fun for 1 run

[Shrukn]

Im not going into this anymore but designing ANY form of incoming hit damage around the fact that ‘XX’ Character SHOULD have 50% damage reduction already ontop of further resists etc is just a bad way to build your base game because EVERY single piece of damage from anything needs to be balanced around this ‘mandatory 50%’ reduction.

Its actually really confusing how people actually think this is a good idea.

just remember the longer the devs hold off on removing this, the more work they have to do when rebalancing all the monster damage later.

Also…Glancing Blow doesn’t even effect DoTs which should be a huge indicator its not required. Make Resists/Armor more impactful and remove Glancing Blows…

Also Glancing Blow is a keystone from PoE which…gives more block chance but when you block, you…take 50% less damage. so I hardly think this is a ‘new concept’ since I know Sarno hangs around GGG official forums for YEARS - Glancing Blows - Path of Exile Wiki - GB was added to PoE in June 2019

[boardman21]

Why would balancing be harder the longer they wait? You take out a 50% DR in game on hits you make mobs hits do 50% less damage. Simple.

[JustLoveHnS]

@Macknum

Because builds that effectivly loose health will be immortal at a certain point?

Sorry, I wrote about possible change for one particular problem - one attribute’s effectiveness lowering by another. But everything should have some limits of course, like every other attribute, and especially because we need to prevent “equality” effect, when one character gets 99(9)% reduction with 100 health and other - with 10. Obviously it would be “unfair”

• Current reduction from protections is like:
  D.Red. = 1 - Max.HP. / (Max.HP. + Protection).

• If we just replace Max.HP. with Curr.HP. than we get immortality effect with Curr.HP. ~ 0:
  D.Red. = 1 - Curr.HP. / (Curr.HP. + Protection).

• but if you add some threshold and 95% D.Red. cap, for example …
  D.Red. = 0.95 * (1 - (20 + Curr.HP.) / (20 + Curr.HP. + 1.2 * Protection)).

  … than we get something like this…
  

And you can see that there’s no any immortality effect, at least not more then we already have.

P.S. Sentinel PvP with 3000 prots and 20 HP on hit… is terrible, I know. But isn’t this an eternal problem?
P.P.S. And yes, I don’t think caps is something bad

@boardman21

Yeah low life lich at 5 health would have 99% protections lol. Be fun for 1 run

Well, I’m also suggesting to change ward mechanics and its gain from passives and nodes .
But yeah, with protections and ward combined it could be fun anyway .

@Shrukn

the fact that ‘XX’ Character SHOULD have 50% damage reduction already ontop of further resists etc is just a bad way to build your base game

Hmm, but if you’re able to play with all your equipment built just around damage, isn’t this a winning path? Okay, you probable should be a microcontrol god, and the game should NOT face you with any unavoidable damage or always give you some savings (which is a micro, again), but anyway, it becomes not the best meta, in my opinion of course (and yeah, I’m very casual ).

Yes, you wrote that protections are enough, I remember. But honestly, I really believe that players should be able to choose their playstyle, including type of defense. So that’s why I suggest to make all those mechanics more compatible, with some specific roles, but not extreme like current “critical avoidance”.

I’ll summarize it, if you don’t mind …

• Weaken ward but make it compatible with protections.
• Unite dodge and glancing blows. Make both numbers less. (more direct damage defense).
• Replace critical avoidance with Resilience. (DoT and Critical defense).
• Grant HP regeneration based on HP maximum. (increasing HP role as defense layer).
• Make D.Reduction from protections capped but give additional mechanics (low life defense).

Again: I don’t like obligatory attributes also. But I believe that you HAVE to get some defense, yet you also should be given a choice: which way and how much.