A couple of skills have similarities, mostly on Dragon Knight, but I don’t know if that’s a lot.
Swing is already in the game.
Charge is already in the game.
Boulder throw is basically avalanche
Shield Firewall is basically Shield bash
Lightning strike is basically Gathering Storm
Ferocious attack sounds like warpath + void cleave
Weapon throw is already in the game, it’s called javelin
Primitive roar is already in the game, it’s warcry
Not trying to be a jerk, just that I think we need more creative and innovative suggestions for future masteries and abilities.
my gosh. Some people have a lot of free time 
Apparently so do you if you have the time to try and mock people being passionate about a hobby.
1 Like
hei hei. You don’t need to be the knight in shiny armor.
Probably OP can take a simple poke and if not - can talk for himself.
So here’s me, talking for me:
Knights in shiny armor haven’t gone down and dirty with their opponent yet.
History shows, I’m more than willing to.
And frankly, I am not a fan of OP’s idea, it’s too much Sentinel/Primalist and not enough Barbarian to make a distinction, but I defend his right to have an idea and throw it out there. It takes balls to be open about your ideas.
You, on the other hand, have contributed nothing to the topic at hand so far.
So yeah, I’ll defend people offering ideas even if I disagree, and I’ll often even argue why it’ll probably won’t ever see the light of day, but one thing I’m NOT ok with is attacking the OP himself rather than their idea. That’s just bullying.
Enough simple pokes can bring a man (or woman) down, death from a thousand paper cuts works on people’s spirits more than their bodies. So please show some respect to your fellow player and take your childish behavior elsewhere.
5 Likes
I mean, ok, a couple of things here:
A) Definintely not suggesting EHG to copy-paste whatever I have here. My idea is to give back to the game some of my inspiration, if they pick up even one thing I’ve written I’ll be happy. Hell, even if they read it, I don’t care.
B) Let’s talk a little about existing similarities in the game. We have Elemental Nova from the Mage and Tempest Strike from the Primalist. They are very similar, an elemental attack consisting of fire, ice and lightning damage. You could argue that since we have one, the other is redundant. However, this is what EHG does best, giving the skills different ways of being applied and different effects. One is a spell which can be cast on the player or at a target location if you unlock a node and you have to unlock specific elements. The other is melee and you can eliminate elements, summon a totem which performs it etc. This is one of the things that make this game so good, in my opinion.
Or, you have Shadow Daggers and Burning Daggers from the Rogue. You could argue that you have one effect so you don’t need the other and it’s better if there’s a different thing. But again, they have different ways of being applied, scaling in some different ways and different uniques they benefit from. Obviously one is Godly and the other doesn’t have a build that I’m aware of at least, but they are there.
C) You mention for example that since we have Javelin we don’t need Weapon Throw. But they will be different skills. One can apply Electrify, used with idols to auto-cast Smite, use it with a Battle Standard, pair it with Judgement with a unique spear etc. Weapon Throw as I described it is a different skill, plays differently, gives the Unarmed effect etc. It’s not about if a skill or a variation of it already exists in the game, it’s can we use a similar concept in a differen way.
Thanks man but it’s honestly ok, I do that with a lot of things I’m passionate about and there’s always someone who will post something along the lines of how ridiculous me or my idea is. It bothered me the first time and then that was it 
2 Likes
It isn’t just about you.
Maybe someone reading his response gets scared of posting their own idea, out of fear of being laughed at. It’s also for them.
And it’s also for me. I don’t want an environment where people trying to be constructive are being put down. Pushing others down is the shittiest way to make yourself feel better and we should strive to be beyond that, both in Eterra and on Earth.
3 Likes
While I have you here, can you offer some opinion? Someone else also said that it reminds too much Sentinel/Primalist and I want to get a better sense at how exactly.
Well, first of all you’re designing a melee Strength character, so Sentinel & Primalist are the archetypes it needs to be different from.
For the base skills, Swing sorta sounds like the way Multistrike or even Firebrand works (and I wouldn’t add negative effects to a starter/basic skill), Charge is sort of a Werebear Rampage, Head Bash = Shield Bash, Wall sounds like a Shaman skill akin to Upheaval & Earthquake, Shield Firewall reminds me of Smelter’s Forge. So you’re basically building a Werebear + Forge Guard combo. The Boulder is a nice idea, but it fits the Primalist aesthetic already, especially if you spec full phys Avalanche.
As for the Masteries …
Your Barbarian sounds a lot like a non-minion Forge Guard: a weapons master.
The Beast, that’s just Werebear who can yeet things.
Dragon Knight, firstly wouldn’t fit Intelligence as much if you’re trying to build around dragon magic. As most of the skills you describe here are Shield-related, we’re coming very close to Paladin as well. If we’ld have a Warrior-like class with the above ideas, you’ld probably build this Mastery as a Dragonborn or Sorcerer from DnD (so with Attunement=Charisma) and describe all the different Masteries as his years in weapon knowledge, his dragon ferocity, or his ability to tap into elemental magic as dragon.
Lastly, you’re going way too far into details and complexity. You should first flesh out the base concept, then the generic skills, their key-node changes etc. and only THEN start thinking about numbers and buff effects. A tree has a starting trunk and branches afterwards, a bunch of branches heaped together is just firewood. So start with core ideas first, get a good trunk, then try and add ideas that deviate from that afterwards. Especially all the combos and buffs will just scare off people, introduce it to us like you’ld expect the game to introduce it to players.
Here is how I’ld build up the class:
Dragonborn; Since the Ancient Era, myths have been told about rare unions between Dragon and Human, resulting in a being with the form of a man, but the power of a dragon. It turns out those myths were founded in a source of truth…
Mastery - Artifact Hoarder
The Artifact Hoarder has spent eons travelling, gathering an arsenal of powerful weapons, often regardless of the wishes (or knowledge) of the previous owner. Stand between him and his latest prize and you’ll find out what his arsenal has in store for you! Style: Weapon Master, throw abilities use a chain to recall their precious artifacts. Uses Dexterity & some Intelligence
Mastery - Berserker
Through years of study and meditation, the Berserker has learned to tap into their Dragon blood, altering their body to be more like their ferocious ancestors without losing their humanity. Style: Unarmed(Claws) Barbarian archetype, primal/animalistic buffs here could work with drawbacks, as a struggle to not be overcome with Dragon Blood. Uses Dexterity & Attunement (basically Werelizard)
Mastery - Dragon Sage
For a Dragon Sage, the real treasure is knowledge. Their understanding of offensive magic is beyond even the foolish dreams of men, while their survival relies on the draconic blood that courses through their veins. Style: Battle-mage, I’ld go mostly Fire & Lightning, with Poison conversions more than Ice. Defensively, go more for Endurance/Armor & Block rather than Ward. Uses Intelligence (Offensive) & Dexterity/Attunement (Defensive)
Bonus cosmetic / Unique shield look: A giant dragon scale.
So as you can see, that’s my trunk; a base from which the rest can grow. I specifically tried to add in Dexterity to distance them from Sentinel/Primalist, as it’s currently the stats with only 1 class built around, and as loot lizards have proven, they can be quick & nimble as well. For example, you could have the Hoarder have a fast-attacking melee ability that uses random weapons from his stash, doing random things. You can go a bit more magic-y by replacing the chain with magic throwing the weapon out like a boomerang instead of a straight line. The Berserker could have a passive ability more like Holy Aura or Falcon, where you customize his body to have stronger claws, or thicker skin, better resistance to Dragon Blood …
By now, you’re probably already thinking of ways you could fit your own ability ideas or even new ones into these masteries, even without me explaining a single skill. And that’s the design order you should do.
Once you got the core concept design, you can work on ways to implement ideas into base functionalities. e.g. the Berserker, how do you gear him without weapons? Scale Dexterity into Claw/weapon damage? Or only use weapons as stat-sticks and ignore weapon speed/range, but nothing else? … How can the Dragon Sage / Dragon Knight tie magic & shield together without being Paladin? Paladin is in it’s core melee swings with healing spells, so avoid that overlap with offensive spells (hence no cold spells because Freeze) and use gear scaling to offset. Do you want to scale Block, or just use aesthetic and convert block to DR through passives? … Depending on that last part, you could drop either Dexterity or Attunement for Dragon Sage, depending on the final concept.
If you have your functionality ideas in place, go over the skills again, which ones no longer fit, or just are too complex for players? Which ones are core, what others wouldn’t you mind having access to as other masteries?
After that, well, it’s numbers time, but that’s pretty much a point where you’re ready to implement the class into the game already.
Edit: Cleaned up part on Dragon Knight to be more coherent after a re-read.
3 Likes
I don’t think tempest strike and elemental nova are very similar. These two are pretty distinct aside from both being AOE elemental abilities.
Just to reiterate, I appreciate your suggestions. Personally, I would like to see more creative masteries added. I think one of LE’s strengths is giving us familiar builds with a twist, like Hammerdins, Werebears, etc. I think whichever new masteries we get in future will likely be more strange than we are expecting. Unless we get a Barb
1 Like
I had the idea of a Barbarian mastery which requires weapons and uses Unarmed as a debuff, a Beast mastery where you want to be carrying weapons but figure out ways to unequip them via skills (or just walk around without) and a Dragon Knight mastery where you need a shield to channel magic. It sounded pretty distinctive in my head, but I guess if people disagree then the fault is with the suggestion. Thank you for the comments anyway.
It’s tough to convey warmth through text, but I’m glad that you are seeking to provide suggestions to EHG for things to add. Even though I disagree with some of the suggestions. I think the dragon knight is the best of the 3 suggestions, as it stands more apart from existing builds and has some flare. It would be cool to have a class that attracts dragons to it and borrows their power, I think it could be a visually interesting class.
1 Like
Ok, I got a few things:
Wasn’t meant as a starter skill, I just came up with some things that fit the idea in my head. I did the same with all the skills in order to make them fit into the idea I had.
The way I imagined it (and maybe I should have explained it better) is as follows:
Barbarian: Needs to be carrying weapons to attack. We use the Unarmed effect as a debuff to certain abilities.
Beast: He mostly requires to be Unarmed, so you need to figure out ways to become unarmed (via skills or just walk around without weapons) and you deal a lot of damage but some of it is reflected back to you.
Dragon Knight: He is using dragon magic but needs a shield to channel it, because it’s just so destructive.
Those seemed like distinct enough to me that I would put them in a suggestion. Maybe it’s inherently flawed, maybe I didn’t explain it well enough, maybe I didn’t go into as much detail as I should have.
Regarding similarities between skills, there are already a lot in the game. You have the Sentinel for example who has Rive, Multistrike and Void Cleave. Those seem like they are pretty close to me, as they are all for example basically melee attacks. The variety though does not come from having only skills which are distinct from each other (like the Acolyte has for example) but from the way that you can play with them.
Or you have Forge Strike, Judgement and Erasing Strike. All of them are heavy AoE abilities but they play differently, you can use them in different ways and make completely distinct builds out of them. So, thematically there are only so many things that you can do.
Further on that, you can basically fit every skill in every game into very specific categories. Melee or range? Spell or attack? Single target or AoE? Instant cast or normal cast? Charged or not? Channeled or cast? Aura or single cast? Lingers or not?
Further further on that, since D1 there are only so many archetypes that you can choose from. The original ones were Warrior, Rogue and Mage. Then at some point we also got shapeshifters and healers and that was pretty much the end of it. Everything that came after that was just a variation on these archetypes. Necromancers are just dark Wizards, Hunters are Rogues with spears, Spiritborns are Druids who don’t transform etc, the Barbarian is a strong and fast warrior, the Sentinel is a more defensive warrior, the dragon Knight is a Druid who uses dragons instead of bears, the Paladin is a warrior healer and so on.
Now, you may also say, ok, but EHG has been pretty inventive with their stuff so far. I, personally, haven’t seen Swarmblade or Falconers for example in anything else. I don’t have much experience with other games but I’ve played D4 and PoE and I see things here that I don’t see there. So, we want EHG to continue to innovate with future classes and the Warrior idea is just not it. Ok, can’t really say much on this, I know that many of the skills I posted are mostly just variations on stuff that we have seen before, no argument there.
In conclusion:
Regarding skill similarities: Yes, and I can name you a lot more skills which are currently in the game that have a lot of similarities already within them. I don’t think that there is much that can be done about that and I’m not so sure there should be a lot done about that. It’s just the nature of these games, a lot of things will look a lot alike.
Ragarding similarities with other classes: Obviously the good folks at EHG can do it a lot better than I can. This was kind of like a hobby to me, coming up with fan fiction stuff for a game I love. I’m sure that when we get barbs and beasts and whatnot it’s going to be a lot better than whatever I came up with.
Lastly:
First of all I would never go into passive trees and numbers. I don’t have the knowledge or ability for it. On the other hand that is exactly the process I followed. I came up with the concept as I described it above with the 3 distinct (in my head) masteries and then I came up with skills for them. When writing the skills I just wrote whatever came to mind, thinking about the differences between the masteries and how I could apply them to different skills. I certainly don’t think we will ever get this exact thing in a million years and I’m sure there’s something a lot cooler in store for us. But, if I was able to give even a little inspiration to the folks, I’m happy with it.
Thanks for the replies, hope you 're well!
See, this is already part of what you were missing before.
Just describe the vibe and direction before and people will read the skills in the same mindset as you are writing them. The only thing that’s missing is the concept that binds them.
Let’s build around that Berserk debuff from your Shield Firewall:
The Barbarian / Weaponmaster would favor control, and his big abilities would trigger the “Berserk” debuff, reducing defenses and at a certain amount of stacks, his ability to wield weapons(Unarmed status). The Beast (I’ld call this one the Barbarian) would embrace this debuff, with tons of leech & endurance to compensate the lack of armor etc. further up in his skill tree. This would also solve the weapon stats issue for the class, so no need to create a lot of mechanics around gear/inventory just for 1 class. The Dragon Knight would probably be the balanced one, where spells do more damage and cost more per stack, some requiring a shield as well. I would also very much stick to a limited amount of negative effects to track. Nobody is going to play a class if they have to juggle 7 different effects and if they mess up, they die. That just punishes mistakes rather than reward good play.
As for skills being the same, Rive is a 3-part combo, Multistrike has a stacking buff and Void Cleave has a weapon requirement & CD. I think those are already inherently different.
For that second list, those are all big hits yes, except one summons minions, the other does things when you kill stuff with it, and the third creates a lingering effect on the ground. Within their respective concepts they are the “big hitter”, yet without writing their names, you already know which ones I meant.
There are some skills in LE that are alike, such as Rive & Blade Flurry, Multistrike & Firebrand, but because their base class attribute are different, you already start off facing a different direction. Your Lightning Strike for example read mostly like Fury Leap to me. The Charge idea is also very similar to Rampage or Lunge, both Strength skills. So how do you make it different? Maybe add a “pinballing” mechanism to the baseline, doing a dashing strike and propelling off them, increasing damage per strike and pushing them away. Nobody who hears “pinball through mobs” thinks Rampage, at best maybe a specific node within Surge (and that’s zigzag, not targetted!) This is especially important when you don’t have any concept art, like a studio dev could get made, so your description needs to invoke that image in itself.
As far as numbers goes … in your description of Burning Shield, you used 10 numbers to explain the skill. One of the things you wrote was “hits from rares count as 3x and hits from bosses count as 10x”. I’m gonna be honest with you, if you’re pitching an entire class concept, nobody cares about rare & boss distinctions like that. Just say something like “Fire Shield skill: Mana draining aura that explodes as fire damage and applies ignites around you when you block. Conversion option can turn it into a casted buff that lasts X seconds, or a permanent passive aura. Skill tree allows you to reflect or absorb certain types of damage.” How much damage and ignites, that’s for after your concept is approved. Less twigs, more trunk 
(Side-note: Uniques are WAY down the list on design and irrelevant to the design, the class/skill needs to stand on its own without specific items propping it up)
Overall, I think you’ve explained too much details about how it’ld work, and not enough about how you want it to feel to players, how it fits cohesively together.
Sorry if this turned into “Pitching concepts 101” lesson, but you did ask for my opinion! 
2 Likes
Nah man, that was plenty good, I’ll run it by you the next time I have a suggestion 
Sure, as long as you’re aware I usually charge an hourly rate 
Hey, you asked me to check this out on stream last Friday so I’ve finally gotten around to reading it. Overall it’s a fun idea with some neat nuggets in it. I think that there are a few angles that you can approach this type of thing from. I’m coming at it from the perspective of “If we were going to add a 6th base class into Last Epoch, what would that look like?” So what are we looking for from a 6th base class and its masteries? I think the most important thing is to create a framework to explore new gameplay and thematic styles. I said this on stream already so it’s probably no shock, The Warrior feels very thematically and mechanically similar to Primalist and Sentinel.
There are elements in here that are things which were cut from the game due to some technical limitations and others that just haven’t made it into the game yet so you’ve got some good stuff in here. I just think that the high level concept for the class doesn’t work given that Primalist and Sentinel exist already. For example, Warrior, Barbarian and Beast could be combined together and added as a 4th Primalist mastery and Dragon Knight could be tweeked and expanded on to make the 4th Sentinel Mastery. I don’t think that there is room for The Warrior as a base class in the current ecosystem. Just so many of the skills you listed have straight 1:1 versions that already exist on other, similarly themed classes.
I saw that you had another full class suggestion too. That was similarly not something we can really implement in Last Epoch so if you’re considering taking another stab at it, I would recommend starting from the question: “What themes and gameplay mechanics are missing that I can use to create a new class with?” Alternatively, you could consider writing up a new mastery for an existing class.
3 Likes
Hi! First of all, I appreciate the reply very much. There are a couple of things I would like to note:
I really have no idea. I started playing arpg’s when D4 came out and before that I had played Neverwinter Nights more than 20 years ago. So there’s no experience to draw from, everything you see I came up with or tried to put a different spin on things I already saw in the game.
Same goes for this one. I figured that some of the things that I wrote would be either difficult or impossible to implement any time in the near future, but I really don’t know what the limitations are in order to adjust the proposal accordingly.
I know, I just thought that with a different enough spin it could be made into something viable, like Ice Hails falling on the player’s shield for example.
That is something that I can work with. I will restructure them to be just 2 masteries for Primalist and Sentinel.
Finally, regarding the Traveler class (which is the Chronicler now), I am in the process of writing a more comprehensive proposal. I’m sure a lot of the things can’t be implemented (if Summon Void Centipede is one of those, I DON’T CARE JUST DO IT!) but maybe with engine upgrades (if that is the issue?) it can happen some time down the line. Also I have a feeling that you will propose they become the 4th Acolyte and Mage masteries instead
That’s all, thanks for reading!
1 Like