The shields of the bosses

[oldschooldiablo]

@DJSamhein

if you have a high enough DPS you don’t see any of the mechanics. Because you delete the boss in those phases before he does anything.

@DJSamhein

So enough DPS in PoE, high DPS builds don’t see any boss mechanic.

Exactly how it should be.

@DJSamhein

With enough boss ward, high DPS builds still have to deal with mechanics.

@DJSamhein

With enough ward in LE, high DPS builds still see boss mechanics

This is why i mentioned the games hades dark souls ect. These games tend to design mobs/bosses so u deal with the mechanics.

I dont play diablo likes for this reason. I have games like these for boss fight like this whe. I want them.

IMHO id mich rather deal with the old DDR mechanic than the current ward mechanic.

Reason is, u could constantly keep doing dmg to its HP. And with enough dps u can kill it in seconds.

Ward doesnt allow players to really out dps bosses. A good build with enough dps should be able to down a boss as fast as possible.

Wards soul purpose is to slow down high dps builds so was DDR mechanic. High dps builds should be rewarded. Not punished by a mechanic thats intent isnt for defense but to slow these builds down. Which gives these bosses more of a souls like feel as well as rouge lite feel

Tbh the game needs to be properly balanced like give bosses and mobs proper defense hp regen more armour hell even immunity phases ect.

Game then wouldn’t need this ward or even DDR mechanic. Thats souly intended to slow high dps builds down.

I enjoy dropping bosses as quick as possible. Which is what made me fall in love with the diablo like genre. This system is beginning to kill it for me.

Imo DDR did a better job at letting u do this as well as felt far better than how ward feels

[Llama8]

@oldschooldiablo

@DJSamhein

if you have a high enough DPS you don’t see any of the mechanics. Because you delete the boss in those phases before he does anything.

@DJSamhein

So enough DPS in PoE, high DPS builds don’t see any boss mechanic.

Exactly how it should be.

I can hear the boss designers crying themselves to sleep…

@oldschooldiablo

Ward doesnt allow players to really out dps bosses.

It does, you just need more dps.

@oldschooldiablo

A good build with enough dps should be able to down a boss as fast as possible.

More DPS will always kill a boss faster, regardless of whether said boss is using the old DDR or new ward system. Waiting for the ward to decay or the DDR to time out will always be slower.

@oldschooldiablo

High dps builds should be rewarded.

They are, they kill bosses quicker than low dps builds.

@oldschooldiablo

Not punished by a mechanic thats intent isnt for defense but to slow these builds down.

What purpose is defence for then if it’s not to slow your opponent down? That’s a very odd thing to say, IMO.

@oldschooldiablo

Tbh the game needs to be properly balanced like give bosses and mobs proper defense hp regen more armour hell even immunity phases ect.

It absolutely does need better balance, but I’m curious, why is red hp good but blue hp bad?

@oldschooldiablo

I enjoy dropping bosses as quick as possible. Which is what made me fall in love with the diablo like genre.

That’s fair enough, but your high dps build will still kill them faster than your low dps build.

[Scipo0419]

@oldschooldiablo

@DJSamhein

if you have a high enough DPS you don’t see any of the mechanics. Because you delete the boss in those phases before he does anything.

@DJSamhein

So enough DPS in PoE, high DPS builds don’t see any boss mechanic.

Exactly how it should be.

The problem is: that’s not what the developers want. So that wouldn’t be “exactly how it should be.”

[DJSamhein]

@Kulze

Those concepts are entirely and utterly different and our solution has come out to throwing one out of the window (Boss Ward) and instead using the concept of DR.
We didn’t make a ‘adaptation’ to Boss Ward, we integrated Boss Ward with the solution into the old DR system. We also added parts to the DR system like visual indication. Which were all the major issues (besides leech which can be solved anyway).

This isn’t true, though. With DDR you were doing full blast damage and suddenly you were doing a fraction of it. So you destroyed 2/3 of the health bar and crawled for 1/3.

The change to ward we’re discussing doesn’t do that, since you always deal full damage. This is a big difference for player perception.

@oldschooldiablo

Exactly how it should be.

That’s not how EHG wants it though. Much like they don’t want free open trade. Or instant respec. You might not agree with that, but it’s part of their game identity.

@oldschooldiablo

Ward doesnt allow players to really out dps bosses. A good build with enough dps should be able to down a boss as fast as possible.

Actually, this is factually wrong when we see builds like static orb one shotting the boss in 1s.

[F0lk]

@oldschooldiablo

IMHO id mich rather deal with the old DDR mechanic than the current ward mechanic.

Reason is, u could constantly keep doing dmg to its HP. And with enough dps u can kill it in seconds.

You’re outta your mind, or doesn’t know what you’re talking about…
The old DDR mechanic worked in a way the damage reduction scaled on how much DPS you did to the boss, so if you had very high dps, your damage was going to have a high reduction on it, so you simply did almost no damage to the boss anymore, to a point you couldn’t even leech life consistently.

[Kulze]

@Scipo0419

It’s also not a fixed hurdle.

It happens at specific intervals with a specific power and lasts a specific time. The only variance is the reduction through the decay.

It is not ‘dynamic’. It is ‘static’. If something is dynamic it adjusts to circumstances which this does not.

@Llama8 what do you wanna tell us?
We know EHG has decided it’s their best option… otherwise they wouldn’t have chosen it. That’s inherent. Nobody believes they’re malicious.
Also the second post doesn’t avoid to be contrarian to the argument of it not affecting low-dps players, because they’re massively affected compared to DR.

@oldschooldiablo

Ward doesnt allow players to really out dps bosses.

Oh! It absolutely does! But you need to have more DPS then before to do it. But the goal was to not allow it in the first place… so either way it failed

@oldschooldiablo

High dps builds should be rewarded.

Exactly, and if you want to reduce the reward that’s fine… but don’t ‘punish’ low dps players for being low dps even more, the downside is already inherent in their build/choices or whatever led to it.

@Llama8

I can hear the boss designers crying themselves to sleep…

And?
I know it’s harsh for a game dev, you want to show everything off to the player. But to do that you must design it in a natural way so it’s enjoyable and not causing frustration.
If you can’t then you can cry day and night… what does the customer care?

@Llama8

What purpose is defence for then if it’s not to slow your opponent down? That’s a very odd thing to say, IMO.

Eh… could also be directing builds into a specific way. Like ‘Boss 1 has more fire resistance’, ‘Boss 2 has more physical resistance’, ‘Boss 3 casts a shield every specific amount of time for x seconds’.
But it’s not well worded, agreed.

@DJSamhein

With DDR you were doing full blast damage and suddenly you were doing a fraction of it.

Yes, which is a downside of how they handled that. Their internal damage calc should be handling DPS up-front to a decent degree, it takes too few things into consideration. Hence the starting DDR was non-existent to then check how much damage you actually do.

I would argue checking beforehand and applying it dynamically per build while rising it for better performance during the fight still would be a sensible way to go for that.

@F0lk

so if you had very high dps, your damage was going to have a high reduction on it,

Or you killed the boss before it triggered, which was the problem why EHG even chose a different system.
Just the system they chose is ass.

[Llama8]

@Kulze

@Llama8 what do you wanna tell us?

Not sure I understand your question/point.

@Kulze

checking beforehand and applying it dynamically per build

I’m sure that would be so simple & easy to do & not fuck up way more than either the current or previous iterations! How specific would said build-analysis have to be?

@Kulze

Just the system they chose is ass.

From your (& an indeterminate number of other people) point of view. Personally I’m not too fussed whether the boss has red or blue hp.

[Tinkerino44]

@Llama8 and @DJSamhein I really think that you guys have lost the plot on this, it is good that you come to debate with your opinions.

I have to assume that you have a lot of time to waste in prolonging the fights so you can observe all the mechanics in detail.

It’s a question of time, not all of us have time to waste, I explained it clearly, by adding time to a single run, you are adding many hours of farming in total, people with high damage practically do not see that time affected, those who suffer from it are who supposedly benefit from this mechanism, anyway, it is a simple mathematical calculation. I think you guys confused ARPGs with MMORPGs, you think this must be like World of Warcraft or something like that.

[Scipo0419]

@Kulze

It is not ‘dynamic’. It is ‘static’. If something is dynamic it adjusts to circumstances which this does not.

It changes to the circumstances of how much damage is being dealt to it. The longer it lasts the faster it decays. It literally is dynamic. It’s not a static Decay rate of X ward per second.

[Scipo0419]

Sounds like this isn’t the game for you, mate. The devs literally said that’s their design intention and it’s not going away. The form it takes may change but the intention is for even the highest dps builds to experience boss mechanics. They do not want bosses to die in seconds. That’s not our opinion, that’s a developer stated fact.

[Kulze]

@Llama8

I’m sure that would be so simple

Never said that.

But you know… if you do something then do it right is my general motto.
I’ve started my wonky career as a salesman, and I’ll never forget the moral ambiguity you’re enforced to have there and which made me quit.
It was the reason why I never again did that, instead ensuring that my work is of top quality when I give it out, be it as a electronics technician (to be fair, people could’ve died if I made mistakes there, so kinda important) as well as a carpenter (which less so, but also the case, especially since I sold some children furniture which needs specific safety measures to not… well… drop on a child and crush it).

I think no singular system outside of what Horus presented is even fit to do the job, which all comes down to not having a job to exist in the first place since it all builds on not handling the balancing right… which is excusable since it’s a extremely complex and situational thing to handle… but not to the degree of mistake we have currently.

It all comes down to providing customers with a quality product, not because we like to do it or because it’s easy to do… that aspect is solely because it’s the right thing to do especially in modern society where screwing someone over has become basically the norm.
If someone offers a finger then rip off the arm and run away… no thanks.

@Llama8

From your (& an indeterminate number of other people) point of view. Personally I’m not too fussed whether the boss has red or blue hp.

And that’s fine!
But the boss having more HP then before definitely is a difference.

Also how each colored HP behaves is important.

That’s the topic after all

@Scipo0419

It’s not a static Decay rate of X ward per second.

Dynamic means it adjusts to outside values. More damage incoming means more pushback, less damage incoming means less pushback in such a case. Values get adjusted by values put in.

That’s what ‘dynamic’ is.

A pre-made system without being adjusted on the fly depending on circumstances is 'static.

For example a viable option for a static method is Horus’ solution, while that one offers a steadily reducing invincibility bar it does at a steady pre-made pace.
Which is why I preferred it over DJ’s dynamic ward usage or even DR, both of them are reactive rather then proactive in the dynamic range, which often a good static system can handle better.

@Scipo0419

The devs literally said that’s their design intention and it’s not going away.

Yep, and I’ll hold it against them
Bought the product before it was put in. The former method was wonky but ‘ok’. This not, hence holding it as a major negative against them until it’s removed or made utterly useless over time in some way

[Scipo0419]

@Kulze

Dynamic means it adjusts to outside values. More damage incoming means more pushback, less damage incoming means less pushback in such a case. Values get adjusted by values put in.

That’s what ‘dynamic’ is.

A pre-made system without being adjusted on the fly depending on circumstances is 'static.

You’re being caught up in the semantics of what being dynamic is. Yes, I agree that the formula for the ward Decay rate is “static”, as is any formula. Including the formula for “dynamic damage reduction.” the formula was a static formula that gave a dynamic output based on the players damage. A player who did 1000 dps faced a different amount of reduction than someone who did 500 dps and they both faced a different amount of reduction than someone who did 1500 dps.

Boss Ward Decay is a static formula that gives a dynamic value based on the duration of the Ward.

A player that clears the ward in 10s deals with a different amount of ward than someone who clears it in 5s, and they both deal with a different amount of ward that someone who clears it in 15s. The formula is static. The results are dynamic based on player damage.

[Llama8]

@Kulze

if you do something then do it right is my general motto.

Very noble of you. I would imagine that the devs feel the same but in their industry there is no single right answer & sometimes it may take several iterations to get to a good answer. They’ve also shown that they aren’t arrogant enough to think that their initial implementation is correct/best/whatever.

@Kulze

Also how each colored HP behaves is important.

Yes, and blue hp (as currently implemented for bosses) is objectively better than red hp.

@Kulze

Dynamic means it adjusts to outside values

Like time perhaps? Incoming damage is not the only parameter here.

@Kulze

The former method was wonky but ‘ok’.

And yet many people really hated it, so it clearly wasn’t “ok” for them, just like ward isn’t ok for you.

@Scipo0419

They do not want bosses to die in seconds. That’s not our opinion, that’s a developer stated fact.

Well, it’s the devs’ opinion. But since they’re making the game it holds more weight than ours.

@Tinkerino44

I think you guys confused ARPGs with MMORPGs, you think this must be like World of Warcraft or something like that.

No, but you do have to accept that the genre has moved on since D1 & D2.

Personally, I have a job & a family (though I’m also divorced, so it’s not quite the same, but i do spend time cooking for myself & phoning the kids every evening, so it’s not like I’m gaming from 5:30-11 every evening) & I would rather have an interesting boss fight where I have to do stuff rather than just dps it down in a few seconds while ignoring any mechanics. But I know that not everybody feels that way.

@Tinkerino44

I have to assume that you have a lot of time to waste in prolonging the fights

If you feel that time spent playing the game is a waste, why play it? If I wanted to treat gaming like a job, I could just work longer hours (which I do have to do but I’m fortunate that this is only for a few days/weekends a year rather than monthly or weekly). I’m all for minmaxing & taking a serious (for wamt of a better term) approach to gaming, but fundamentally, I do it to relax, unwind from work/life and yes, waste time in-between getting home from work & going to sleep.

@Tinkerino44

I really think that you guys have lost the plot on this

I/we have a different viewpoint to you, which is ok, but that doesn’t mean we’re stupid or have gone insane. I don’t think that you/Kulze/etc have “lost the plot” because you disagree with me. I accept that you have sincerely held opinions, I assume that you aren’t stupid (not something I can say for everyone here) & all I ask is that you give me the same courtesy.

[TyphonBaan]

Here’s what I can’t get past; If the developer wasn’t resigned to there to being a huge difference in dps between classes, they’d prioritize fixing that difference rather than working on a band-aid*. So, they must be ok with there being a huge difference between builds. Except they clearly aren’t because the one place where a several order of magnitude difference actually matters is where they apply a system to try to reduce the effects of that dps difference.

*this single sentence has a lot packed in. Basically I’m saying here that the developer needs to add/fix so many things to this game, the fact that they prioritized this system implies that they are resigned to the fact that there is a huge difference in dps output between builds. This system acknowledges that they simply are unable to address that issue.

[DJSamhein]

@TyphonBaan

the fact that they prioritized this system implies that they are resigned to the fact that there is a huge difference in dps output between builds. This system acknowledges that they simply are unable to address that issue.

Not really, there’s a nuance involved. They prioritized a system that requires a few days vs a change that will require many months.
The only thing that they acknowledge is that balance is something they’re unable to address in the span of 3 months.

[Scipo0419]

Boss Ward and Dynamic DR aren’t systems to close the gap between high and low dps builds. They are systems designed to force high dps players to experience boss mechanics while still killing bosses faster than a low dps build. There can, and will, be balances passes on outside systems

[Kulze]

Oh… they actually 100% are.
That’s their only actual function.

Because if a boss can’t showcase their abilities it means that the disparity between the lowest and highest ‘general’ build is so extreme that they can’t even raise the HP of the boss to handle this issue.

Because it would cause the lowest ‘general’ builds to take ages to kill the boss while the highest ones don’t even see it blink. Which is still the case, less then last cycle at least.

So this mechanic is implemented to take care of that ‘gap’ between the power-level of builds.
Which means directly that balancing builds overall to reduce this gap automatically makes the mechanic unnecessary to exist as it looses its function.

That’s a given. As for their function:
DR is literally made to cause high dps characters to do damage to bosses like low dps characters.
Boss Ward on the other hand is made to cause more time investment for high dps players in percent (bad baseline to go from, but we’re over that) then the percentile amount of time low dps players loose.

Both are distinctly made to close a gap, the new one sucks with that but we’re stuck with it, the old one at least did that decently well.

What have you thought it means when a high dps player ‘should experience the boss’ when otherwise he wouldn’t since he’s basically ‘deleting’ the boss? Obviously you need to force him in some way to be treated more like a low dps player to get into this situation, which way is not important.

[Llama8]

@Kulze

Oh… they actually 100% are.
That’s their only actual function.

Yup, they are attempts at this, while they (hopefully) work on slowly bringing balance to the force to LE. And it’s not going to be a quick thing.

[Scipo0419]

The difference, in my opinion, between the goals of the Boss Ward/DDR systems and general balance is this.

Let’s say EHG gets balance perfect in the next patch. Literally all builds are perfectly balanced around 300c with skilled players being able to push up to 450c, and unskilled players working at 150c. Perfect spread of build levels.

A few months goes by and players adjust their builds, improve their gear, and generally improve. Bosses are being melted again and mechanics are being skipped. They rebalanced the bosses around this new power level to keep things level. But Johnny hears about this new game and decides to join, he gets to empowered monolith and… Can’t kill the bosses? They’re too strong for him and his brand new character. He’s forced into the Merchant Guild to buy items that will let him have at least a chance to kill these bosses. Eventually he just gives up.

Or.

EHG leaves the bosses the same, and people flock to the OP boss melting specs and we end up in a situation with only a handful of builds that are worth using because they’re barely faster than the alternatives (people will chase that extra 1s of time saved.)

These are obviously hypothetical examples, but we’ve seen similar situations in the Diablo franchise, look at D2, there’s only one or two builds per character that are worth using and most of the gear are the same OP Runewords for every build. D3 has two or three builds per class. D4 has one or two again from the last time I checked, which was admittedly several months ago.

The last time I looked at PoE (years ago lol) the build variety was like two or three variations of “teleport and screen wipe” but I heard that changed.

Torchlight 2 has even less build variety than Diablo 2.

Grim Dawn and Titan Quest have tons of build options, but I feel that’s more due to dual Mastery system giving you so many options on how to play and the games being more slow paced and less focused on speed clears. I could be wrong about that though.

I’m getting side tracked, but while the function of Boss Ward and DDR does close the gap, the way it’s done is in a way that slows down power creep more than to balance the high and low dps builds.

[TyphonBaan]

@DJSamhein

They prioritized a system that requires a few days vs a change that will require many months.

I don’t think Boss Ward required a few days. Also, the Discord group chats that Llama linked didn’t sound* like “this is a stop-gap till we work out balance”, it sounded like, ‘this achieves our goals the best’.

It’s worth saying that I have a lot of sympathy for EHG in terms of balance. Just looking at how long it took other teams to kind-of get it right has to be terrifying. It’s a black hole at a time when MUST FIX BUGS and MUST ADD CONTENT are #1 and #2 on the list. And bug-fixing is clearly a black hole all by itself by virtue of these bugs being so long-lived. hmmm, maybe "UPDATE UNITY!’ is #1.

*disclaimer, I just read what Llama posted, not the actual chat

EDIT: so, sure, this is what we have for now. We should all be mature enough to say, “yeah, it works, gives them some breathing room to work on… everything”. I just don’t want us saying, “no, this is good, this what everyone should do”, because I don’t think it is.

From a player perspective, I think it’s crap. It feels like, “you are having too much fun, and the builds that play the way we want them to are sad… so you have to be sad also”. my ‘player perspective’, is kind of the perspective of a jack-ass. I definitely could be kinder.