The relationship between Spell Blade and the sword

[Duminant2021]

@XLVI_carpo

These kind of restrictions can be found all over the game. This is part of the philosophy. The devs tell you straight away that if you want to play a dual wielding melee mage, the optimal choice is swords. That’s their class fantasy.

I do not argue with this, I completely agree that SpellBlade should solve his tasks with the help of swords. But this is the problem.

Maybe when time goes by we get additional sword base types that are suitable for Spellblade besides the 2 current choices.

Take a look at this list.

Sword: Katana
Axe: Eagle Wing
Blunt: Solarum Hammer, Doom Star, Rune Hammer
Dagger: Rune Dagger, Moon Dagger
Sceptre: Argentus Sceptre, Obsidian Sceptre

Among all these weapons that could potentially be used, there is only one sword, the katana, and then, it is only suitable because of one single node (of all SpellBlade skills), which gives a critical attack.
Or take for example the Scimitar, which logically should be suitable for SpellBlade instead of Argent Scepter, but not suitable, because SpellBlade does not have abilities that are enhanced by swords.
As a result, even with suitable swords, we use scepitres. Or with daggers or clubs …

As a result, for SpellBlade you need to create crutches, like Crystal Sword, for its mechanics to work …

In my opinion, SpellBlade should be such that by taking a Scimitar in hand, it becomes useful and effective for us. Or taking the Dawn Blade into our hands, he turned out to be more effective for us than, for example, the Obsidian Scepter.

P.S. Tell me, is Spellblade for you a magician or a warrior?
If you give a war to the hands of a sword with fire damage, he will turn into a melee mage?

If I would ever create a Spellblade in a game, it would be a Kung Fu Fighter with all kind of melee weapon skills. Magic would be used for defensive purposes, movement and buffs.

I remember the D&D games.
Take Paladin for example. He imposes buffs on himself, increases defense, attack, and so on, even a sword can make him burn (if I didn’t mix it up). But does that make him a melee mage?

[Macknum]

Weapons are just statstics and that’s it… there is no fantasy to it it’s just coded that way.

[XLVI_carpo]

Yeah. Your character also is only a stat stick. Passives are just stats. Attack skills do nothing else but decreasing enemy hp. It’s just code and mathematical operations. So according to your argumentation, theres no fantasy involved. Not only in LE but any other game.

I really dont get your point.

[Llama8]

@XLVI_carpo

just … mathematical operations… no fantasy involved

You don’t get maths do you.

[Macknum]

Yeah stats are just tools, equipment… just tools. At the end of the day you can simply play what you like because it don’t matter outside of effectiveness.

OP seems to have his own kind of class fantasy he wishes for and it’s simply not given because first of all the game works how it works and secondly the class fantasy is different in the Spell Blade example. It simply don’t match it at all aspects.

Hope this helps ^^.

[Duminant2021]

@Macknum

В конце концов, вы можете просто играть в то, что вам нравится, потому что это не имеет значения, кроме эффективности.

People play role-playing games to act out their fantasy, so we have Sorka, not the number one magician. Druid, not magician number two. Paladin, not mage number three.

And at the same time, we want to be effective. All the most popular games, such as Diablo, GD, and others, they give people a role-playing game.
At the same time, if it does not give them efficiency, or upsets the balance (as, for example, he began to do PoE), the game loses its popularity and is not played.
Because most people don’t play math, but fantasy.

@Macknum

OP, похоже, имеет свой собственный вид классовой фантазии

No. I just want what the developer gives to be effective and interesting. And the mechanics of the characters, including from the point of view of the role-playing part, were full-fledged, and not contained in the game crutches.

If the developers make a SpellBlade, whose lore is based on swords, then they must have implementation in his skills and abilities.

If the developers give the SpellBlade skills that work from the spell (for example, Lightning Blast through triggers), then the SpellBlade must successfully implement them. And don’t do it with a staff, because SpellBlade is not a Sork. And with swords, because such a Lore was invented by the developers.

Take the Druid for example. His lore is based on transformation. Imagine that his transformation does not depend on skills, but on the clothes he is wearing. Would that be correct? No.
Weapons and armor, a tool that should help customize the playable class, not replace it.

But that’s how it is with SpellBlade now. His Lore is a sword. But we are offered to run with scepters and staves, axes and clubs, because this is mathematics …

[vapourfire]

@Duminant2021

Tell me, did I understand you correctly that you think that each class should be unique and with its own features ?

Yes… To me this is part of the appeal of a game like Last Epoch… Because classes are unique in thier own ways, it motivates me to play each class… to experiment and find the ones I like and enjoy a variation in play style that is partially confined within the design of the class…

Games that are more free, allowing you to build any character tend to be less appealing to me because I subconciously end up building subtle variations of the same thing - they are interesting but imho, I dont spend very much time playing them because I am not forced to try new things.

@Duminant2021

Do you think SpellBlade’s melee elemental combat mechanics are unique to LE ?

No… not at all - I have been playing rpg games for decades and before that DnD - a melee based mage is nothing new. But it works as a niche build in the Mage Class, in the same way as a Forge Guard works as a niche build in Sentinel Class. For me, its ticking a box for a particular character favourite - just like all LE classes - they all try to match class themes that people are familar with while still trying to add something Unique to LE.

One important thing to note before continuing: The game is in beta and I have been playing for over a year now and there have been MANY class reworks already… I dont think that ANY class in the game right now is 100% complete or 100% perfect - spellblades included.

What I get from your threads/posts is that you have an IDEA of what YOU think a Spellblade should be and are trying to make the Spellblade in the game match your idea… instead of just playing the spellblade like its designed…

Unlike you, I dont see a Spellblade as a fragile magician using swords/gear to enhance their innate magical spells/abilities … I see it the other way around… I see a warrior (something like a ranger not barbarian) that uses magically enhanced skills/weapons to enhance their melee abilities… So for me, the current design of the Spellblade fits well… Skills benefit from Dex & Int, melee attributes like attack speed etc are important, crystal swords benefit damage and speed… Spells, like Flame Ward/ Ward etc, focus on defence… melee tagged skills focus on offence with elements… With your idea of a spellblade, that would have to be reversed… offense becoming spells… defence becoming melee (like armour/dodge etc).

So I think that you just have a different view on what you think a spellblade is… Its different than what I think the game designers intended (and what I consider a spellblade to be)…

[Duminant2021]

@vapourfire

Unlike you, I dont see a Spellblade as a fragile magician using swords/gear to enhance their innate magical spells/abilities … I see it the other way around… I see a warrior

However, SpellBlade does not start with a Sentinel like Void Knight or Paladin, but with a mage.
And if VoidKnight or Paladin are wars, although they use magic, it is natural for them to wear armor, use axes, clubs and other weapons.
SpellBlade starts out as a Mage, and is a mage subclass. And it was not me who invented it, but the developers. And the fact that he defends himself with the help of Wards (at least as planned), and not with the help of armor and a huge HP, also comes from the class of magicians, not warriors.
So it is with weapons. SpellBlade is not a guardian who can handle all weapons at once. This is a magician who uses a sword.
Just like the Pathfinder (for example from D&D), he is not a magician, but a subclass of warriors.
Therefore, SpellBlade must obey the rules on which it is based.

I do not mind (I even fully support it) that he could be a “warrior with an elemental attack”, I just say so as not to dwell on this. Didn’t turn a mage into a Sentinel.
So that those mechanics that already exist work efficiently (I’m talking about triggers) and expand.
Look at Druid (new). He can be a warrior (bear), a mage (sprigan), or an assassin (beetle).

What’s your problem for SpellBlade to be more than just a “fiery sword warrior”? Why are you opposed to the mechanics that developers have already created in the form of spell striggers working effectively?

By the way, it is called SpellBlade, not “Battle Mage”, not “prismatic warrior” not “warrior of fire and lightning” and so on.
The developers gave him a specific lore. A magician who uses a sword.
Not Sentinel, who learned spells.

@vapourfire

defence becoming melee (like armour/dodge etc).

Yes, I stuttered in another topic about such options, but I’m not a developer, so I don’t have to follow rigid guidelines. Although I agree that they are not suitable and you need to use (strengthen) those mechanics with Ward that are already there.
In that thread, I also spoke about expanding the protection capabilities through Ward. I’m not fixated on something and I’m not trying to customize the game for myself, but I’m looking for different options to solve the problem.

[Duminant2021]

Again, I’m not saying that SpellBlade needs to be redone, in my opinion, it is enough to just adjust what is already there.

For example, passive spell damage, why not bind this skill to a sword? This will allow us (if we need it) to spend points and use a sword instead of scepters.

Take a passive that increases damage over time. Why not tie to swords? This will allow the use of Scimitars rather than scepters.

Why not give a passive, which gives a % to the melee element of damage to swords. And not use a crutch in the form of a Crystal Sword?
Need maximum flat damage, take Dawn Blade. Need Crete, use Katana. We need over time damage, we use the Scimitar.
We need Spell Damage, swing the skill and take the sword, which is more suitable, and not staves, sceptres, daggers and so on.

Don’t want to run around with two swords, get a two-handed one, and make it useful with your skills.
Or use a sword and shield. And not scepters, as it is now (for example, for auras or spells)

[Llama8]

@Duminant2021

For example, passive spell damage, why not bind this skill to a sword? This will allow us (if we need it) to spend points and use a sword instead of scepters.

Take a passive that increases damage over time. Why not tie to swords? This will allow the use of Scimitars rather than scepters.

Why not give a passive, which gives a % to the melee element of damage to swords.

'Cause then you’ve removed the other weapon bases as options from the Sepllblade. Having that be turned on as a passive is a decent idea, assuming it’s balanced, which is the difficult part, such that the swords are comparable to other bases but not always best in slot.

[Duminant2021]

@Llama8

'Cause then you’ve removed the other weapon bases as options from the Sepllblade. Having that be turned on as a passive is a decent idea, assuming it’s balanced, which is the difficult part, such that the swords are comparable to other bases but not always best in slot.

Should a magician who uses a sword use other bases?
For example, Sork uses staves or one-handed Wands counterparts. He should not use axes and lances.
It’s the same with SpellBlade. He is a magician who uses a sword instead of Staves. He doesn’t need axes or scepters. Let druids or warriors use them.
And about the balance. This is the task of the developers. In my opinion, it’s better to balance the skills than to release crutches in the future so that SpellBlade can live.

[vapourfire]

@Duminant2021

Therefore, SpellBlade must obey the rules on which it is based.

What rules?
The rules that the developers made up when they designed the game?
Or traditional rules about role playing game classes?

I agree, a Spellblade could be a warrior base class with magic… But it can also be a Rogue base class with magic (ranger route)… and it can be a Mage base class with melee… you could even have an Acolyte with melee if you wanted… In some way, it could fit in anywhere… I think they just put it where it is because they though a melee ability in the mage class was missing…

Maybe its the translation, but you say things like “SpellBlade is not a guardian who can handle all weapons at once. This is a magician who uses a sword.” Why? Who says this is correct?

If someone wants to play a spellblade with a sceptre & shield - why cant they? Maybe they will not make a top tier BiS meta build, but they will still have fun and be able to do the content available right now…

The spellblade is made up by the developers - its not wrong - maybe it doesnt work properly yet and, imho, definitely needs some things changed/balanced/more gear variety, but the class is whatever the developers want it to be…

[Duminant2021]

As you said, only the developers determine what is right and what is wrong. That’s why I express my opinion here regarding certain things.
If the developers consider it superfluous, so be it, if it is useful in something, then it is good.

@vapourfire

What rules?
The rules that the developers made up when they designed the game?
Or traditional rules about role playing game classes?

The usual rules of logic.
For example, make a Barbarian or Druid out of a magician.
Make Sorcerer from Sentinel.
Make a Necromancer from Rogue.
This sounds delusional. If the developers so choose, they can of course do so, but they did not.

They took base classes. And gave these base classes subclasses. that’s about 2 plus 2.
When your world and your rules, you can set the number 3 or 5. But for this, there must also be some kind of logic.

And by this logic, SpellBlade is a mage, not a Sentinel and not a primalist, and not a rogue. By this logic, the developers have given spell triggers. And even if you like the fact that SpellBlade plays from melee damage, this does not mean that he lost the ability to play from spells (through triggers.)

Regarding the swords. I just want Spell’s closeness to the Blades to be more pronounced. Not necessarily exactly as I say, I only give examples, not specific things.
And I hope the developers hear me. Or they will do something even better. I love how they make LE and I believe they will make an interesting game.

[Llama8]

The discussion is certainly good, especially if we can get to the root of people’s belief in things (like Spellblades “needing” to use a sword).

[Duminant2021]

Let me give you one real case. Many years ago, I played a spaceship game (it still lives on).
I once came up with an idea that didn’t fit very well with the current system. But the developers liked it and made new classes based on this idea.

When I talked to the developer, he said that you never know what might result from this or that idea.
Therefore, I have never seen a problem in expressing certain thoughts, even if someone does not like them.

[XLVI_carpo]

I’m a bit confused now. So if I understand correctly you want the Spellblade even to be more dedicated to swords?

I thought it was the other way round from the first few posts…

[vapourfire]

Rules of Logic? but this is a fantasy game and magic by its nature suspends a strict adherence to logic laws of any kind… Sure there needs to be some basic logic behind the base class ideas like Mages, Rogues, Sentinels, Primalists etc but fantasy allows logic to take a back seat in favour of creativity for the master classes and how they could potentially build / evolve…

For example:

A Void caster build in LE right now is a Sentinel based Sorceror who does all damage from Spells - and it is VERY VERY powerful… I find it a great class/build but it doesnt really seem logical for a melee character to be doing massive spell damage…

Delusional is a very strong word in English so I am assuming that the translation has made this mistake… Your suggestions like a Necromancer Rogue sound really good… it doesnt sound delusional to me… it sounds interesting and even pretty close to the idea of the Rogue Shadows… What are shadows? Ghosts? Pretty close to Necromancers ideas of spectres/undead wraiths…

I think that you are taking the “Blade” part of “SpellBlade” too seriously… Sure the design theme centres around the concept of using a Sword but it doesnt need to - the concept of a Spellblade to me still works fine even if the build doesnt use a sword or even dual wield swords… In fact, I’l like it if a Spellblade could dual wield the +# Lightning hammers but the devs decided they didnt want to allow that…

I think that there is definitely an issue around how the developers have restricted Spellblades… and after playing all three elemental versions for hundreds of hours I personally think its frustrating that they have the restrictions around spells / triggers etc in space… BUT I believe that Spellblades would be OP if the restrictions were not in place… Doing the levels of melee damage they already do and adding more powerful spell/triggers/modifiers etc would likely break things…

The developers read everything on this forum… They dont always reply… but they DEFINITELY read it all… and they DO consider everyones suggestions and use the feedback to gauge how their changes are impacting the players… and they DO make changes IF they decide that they are needed…

[Llama8]

@vapourfire

Rules of Logic? but this is a fantasy game and magic by its nature suspends a strict adherence to logic laws of any kind…

Depends whether it’s a hard magic or soft magic system. Hard magic would be rules-based (if a caster does X they get Y, if Z has been said to be impossible, it can’t happen, the rules don’t always need to be made known to the reader/user, but they exist), while soft magic would be whatever the writers/etc thinks is awesome & rules/logic/suspension of disbelief be damned!

Wheel of Time would be an example of a hard magic system. It has rules on what the channellers can & can’t do, even if they don’t necessarily know what the rules are & think that stuff is impossible when it’s not (like healing stilling). Star Trek (plus Dr Who in the most recent few series & Star Wars after the original films when they branched out into the expanded universe books) would be an example of soft sci-fi where the writers are quite happy to just make #### up to get the crew out of a situation with bonus points if it involves needless technobabble.

So no, just because something is fantasy doesn’t mean that logic & rules can’t or shouldn’t be applied.

[vapourfire]

@Llama8

So no, just because something is fantasy doesn’t mean that logic & rules can’t or shouldn’t be applied.

Yes… never said there isnt a place for logic… but fantasy allows the POSSIBILITY of bypassing logic in some way…

By its very nature, fantasy of any kind does not have to confirm to the logical & known laws of the real or imaginary created world… based in magic or simply undiscovered or unknown science…

Magic systems with hard or soft rules makes no difference imho… You could go absurd Terry Pratchet, traditional Tolkien or Dan Simmons and Asimov… You could even MAKE UP the rules and logic in a fantasy world be it magical or sci fi… If it fits, then it works… its fantasy, its make believe…

[Llama8]

You said that "magic by its nature suspends a strict adherence to logic laws of any kind… ". To me that means that you believe that through magic the writers of fiction can do whatever they want “'cause magic”. Which doesn’t have to be the case, is all I’m saying.