The Philosophy of Talents

What is a Talent? In literal terms, it is a system device by which to alter the functioning of a spell or ability.
But what is a Talent meant for? we are given a lot of choice in this game, especially regarding talents, and a lot of that choice boils down to 2 things at any given moment in time when the choice needs to be made:
1: Does this increase my damage more than alternatives?
2: Does this change better align to my preferred play style?

In many cases, the answer can be both, and in cases where the answer is significantly yes, it’s reasonable that (in order to maintain a semblance of balance) that the change would come with a negative modifier of some sort. for example, say you have an ability that typically fires 3 projectiles, but then a talent increases that to 4, but each projectile individually deals 10% less damage. in this case, there is a negative modifier, in the form of lower projectile damage, however there is a 33% increase in projectiles, so the talent is a net gain, and thus, it is a good talent.
so then, what are we, the players, meant to think when presented with a talent that doesn’t change the way in which a skill functions in regards to the characters playstyle, and also doesn’t increase it’s power? let’s just say for example, you have a skill that summons a minion, and that skill can be used successively to summon up to 6 minions, and then a talent options appears that allows the ability to only summon up to 2 minions, with no additional modifiers. naturally, most of the people reading this post up to this point know exactly which talent i’m talking about, but in the spirit of fairness, it does save the necromancer some mana. this brings us to step 2 of this question:
How much power does a summoner gain from mana? the answer, unsurprisingly, is basically none, unless that mana can be translated into more minions. in the case of the post-update changes, this is not so. or rather, the exact reverse is true, that being that we are saving mana so that we specifically cannot translate it into more minions, as the alternate would have been to constantly spend the mana to summon more minions.
So what is a talent meant to be? Why are there talents that do not only fail to increase power, but actively take it away for no tangible benefit?
Why do the developers hate necromancers?

This concludes my Ted Talk, I’ve officially lost interest in this update after 3 hours of number testing on what was already a mathematically obvious nerf to an under-performing class. I plan to check the forums for the next few days to get a feel for the general player sentiment as more and more people chime in about the Necromancer changes, and to see if the Developers choose to grace us with a response to these increasing concerns (which I personally think is unlikely, as they are more active on Reddit than on their own forums)
After that, I may see you all next patch if the problems actually get fixed instead of being made consistently worse in the most anti-player ways possible, but I’m sure I won’t be missed either way since LLama is probably the only person who actually reads these posts. Good Day.

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I am no Llama.

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I get your pain, my wandering spirits build is no longer endgame monolith worthy.

That being said, it’s early access, a work in progress. Getting attached to your characters and items is expected, but you can’t expect the devs not to make the changes they think are best for the health of the game (including future multiplayer). Your feedback gets read and even taken into account, it’s GREAT that you stated what you didn’t like and why.

Even if you really are done with the game, thank you for giving a clear explanation as to what specifically felt so bad.

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i’ve had a rant brewing in my head for most of the evening as this topic has dominated my attention for much of the day, so i’m going to make at least one more post doing my darndest to articulate exactly why this patch is the worst thing ever, but without change i really do intend to leave.

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I would suspect that the changes you think need to be made, at least in part, will be. It won’t be quickly though. I personally took a good 8 months off the game when I felt like every single build had homogenized into glass cannon or full tank. Came back and a found a lot to like :slight_smile:

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I’d love to be optimistic, but we’ve been discussing these issues for at least a year on this forum, and when they actually made a change, they managed to make it exclusively worse, which is rather disheartening.

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####, now I actually have to read it…

Personally I don’t like using terminology from other games (ā€œtalentsā€) where the game already has it’s own terminology.

Now I’ll read the post.

The bolded part is just objectively not true. Twin Spirits makes Wraiths into permanent minions, which is not an insignificant change. You can certainly argue about the values, are 6 decaying Wraiths & 2 permanent Wraiths too few? Do you give up too much power by going from 6 temporary to 2 permanent? But you can’t say that the node has ā€œno additional modifiersā€. Though personally I agree that the node itself should buff the two Wraiths you get, with additional buffs in the subsequent node, but I’m not really into minion builds. shrugs

And that’s a strawman. How much power does the Mage get from mana? None, unless they use that mana to cast spells!
rolls eyes

Also, as I understand it, the power of Wraiths should have been rebalanced compared to having them uncapped, so you get (substantially) fewer but more powerful Wraiths. If that’s not working, that’s valid feedback. As is the feedback that dropping down to 2 permanent Wraiths feels bad.

That’s a disingenuously hyperbolically wrong question to ask. There is a tangible benefit of not having Wraiths health decay, it’s just that the cost for that benefit feels way too much.

I’m going to assume that there’s quite a bit of tongue-in-cheek hyperbole in this post.

I’m not sure that’s correct either since I know the devs balanced the new Wraiths around a certain number of old Wraiths. Twin Spirits notwithstanding. And if you want to rage-quit due to 1 single node in one skill, that’s entirely your prerogative. Just like it’s my prerogative to not tell you what I think of that to save the devs the time moderating my post…

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@Llama8

Do you think this is an apt way of viewing skills in LE, or do you disagree, and if so, how?

Also, Zarano, with all thats happened so far in LE’s development, you’d really let it be for awhile due to this? I’m genuinely asking as I have been trying to wrap my head around it for a bit tonight lol. Has shaved off quite a few hours from work, so thanks lol.

More or less, yes. The skill tree & it’s nodes are supposed to either make a skill ā€œbetterā€ in some way (possibly with downsides to compensate) or change how you use a skill. That was fine. Calling the skill tree nodes ā€œtalentsā€ was what I objected to.

His terminology is what you… I see. I suppose I expected way too much out of this lol. Carry on!

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Expecting too much from me will only lead to disappointment…

I was expecting that! And I’m not disappointed.
But I wanted to be disappointed. Oh, now I’m disappointed.
Happy I am.

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prior to this update, the only spell necromancers cast is summon more wraiths, now that there’s no purpose to this, that mana translates into nothing, it’s not a strawman. also i would reference my other lengthy post which is a lot more numbery and objective, but basically every single change made necromancers either lose power exclusively (as in, it was just a nerf, like the change for dread shade) or implemented a trade that caused far more power loss than any gain. (for the abomination decay talent, you’d actually lose less damage by just never summoning the abomination)

So you never used Bone Curse, Rip Blood to buff your minions (& get life/ward)?

you mean those spells that cost less mana than the amount you regenerate during the animation? yeah, i’m using bone curse right now and i had rip blood on to see how it synergized with blood golems, they’re both okay, but the amount of damage they do is more than pitiful (again, i would need to reference my dread shade argument from the other post, but it’s really long so i’m not sure i could get you to read it since i didn’t directly call you out for being on these forums in that post like i did here)

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One of my Necros had only one minion: a golem. Apart from that, she used Marrow Shards as the main damage dealer. OK, it’s paid in blood and not in mana. Sure you don’t imagine the other slots were free?

In your post, you have several points, for sure. But in my opinion, you’re drawing your conclusion too far and, essentially, too fast.

My main VK has lost his survivability. I’ll try and find a way to retrieve it, or I’ll see how others do after a while. I certainly won’t give up after so little time.

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