I hope they’ll remove / rework the rift beasts for next season. Those OP primordial items / uniques need to become random rare drops from somewhere instead simply beeing able to buy them. Getting the currency is just a boring grind. Once you get your BIS primordial item you can simply forget about the whole system. That’s not very good design.
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It’s not likely to go away. It’s part of the core mechanics they want in the game.
They might tweak a few things, like they did with faction favour, but the system is here to stay.
And after getting a BiS primordial (which often requires buying one multiple times for better rolls and more LP) you only ignore the mechanic if you’re a single character type of player. For most players we want to try at least a handful of different builds with them. If not even getting them all.
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It’s not likely to go away. It’s part of the core mechanics they want in the game.
We can change that as a community. The rift beasts are uninspired and boring. Primordial item aquisition is also completely flawed and just a grind. For the power they provide they should at least be locked behind a Abberoth level of fight.
And after getting a BiS primordial (which often requires buying one multiple times for better rolls and more LP) you only ignore the mechanic if you’re a single character type of player.
I mean you can ignore them for the rest of your playtime on that build.
Does the community as a whole want that, though? You find them boring, I find them fun.
The currency aquisition could probably use a tweak, but that doesn’t change the mechanic.
Sure, some players aren’t enjoying the mechanic. But others are. And without a real consensus, the devs design will stay.
Not really. When you want to prepare your next alt, you farm on your main. It’s much faster and that way you can start playing your actual build much sooner.
I got the reflect chest, getting kinda bored with it, will stick with it 1-2 more days and then I’ll look at the primordials to decide which I want to try next. Then I’ll farm it before I even create the new character. Or maybe I’ll even start farming it tomorrow while I finish up with this character.
And then the new character will still use the rift mechanic so it can get a better rolled item or with more FP. And once I get bored with that, I’ll start working on the next one.
Or, if I really like the current build, I’ll keep interacting simply to buy all the different ones. Because almost all of them seem really fun and I will want to create builds for most of them.
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Sure, some players aren’t enjoying the mechanic. But others are. And without a real consensus, the devs design will stay.
Hopefully EHG can read the tell-tale signs of multiple forum posts, bad steam reviews and player number / retention just a few days after patch and hopefully they are not just attributing it to the upcoming PoE2 patch release.
I would agree with that if most of the negative reviews were about the mechanic, but they’re not. Most are complaining about necro, server issues, bugs and old issues like map reset.
Knee jerk reviews are knee jerk.
happens to every live service game, they dont learn or care, because its not real.
just like player count isnt real. Lost ark is the worst game in existence, it lost 98% of its 1m players! w0w, real metric is real.
Hype generation makes it so that any new game has bad retention metrics automatically cause people like some of my friends who try every game that releases and get to level 15 then turn it off never to return.
Yes in terms of content, this season sucks.
This patch just adds more timesinks and tons of bugs for me
I’ve been having a lot of fun. If there’s anything to complain about, it’s the sheer amount of bugs and glitches.
And that’s absolutely fine! It’s not affecting everyone as everyone is after all different.
It’s important to know though that there’s basically 3 types of people for any product, and for this talk only 2 are relevant:
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The people which enjoy the game and have no issue with it, just playing it and finding no fault, taking it in and using it healthily in all manners, being content simply with it. (Those are not relevant for our argument here)
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The people which are frustrated but have no idea what the exact reasons are in detail of why they are. It just ‘feels not good’. (Those are the vast majority of people overall for those not simply content)
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The people which know precisely which specific aspects affect them the most, those are really… and I mean really rare.
The majority of people clings to the one thing which ‘miffs’ them the most and take it as ‘the reason’ as to why they get frustrated. In reality it’s always a large amount of different reasons though. Usually many many many small accumulated things which in total make it feel sub-par to expectations.
Mind you, in several products it’s obviously a clear-cut ‘this is the problem’ thing going on too… but it’s far less prevalent that it might seems.
So basically you can always see it as a ongoing scale of positivitiy versus negativitity, that’s normal to happen.
A person starts to play, the game looks nice, immediately plus. The controls are decently smooth, also plus. Starts all fine, plus points accumulate. First time experience being a major one which reduces the negative aspects especially. But as people get more used to a product it starts to shift, the small ‘disaprities’, non-smooth pieces, miniscule issues all flesh their teeth at them.
That click through the UI at the enchanting of idols screen? Mild annoyance… but in the background you’re a little bit annoyed. Now the next interaction hits a bit harder… the next following positive experience hits just that slight bit less. The next negative one hits just that much harder.
Clicked through the UI while setting up the filter and it closes? Again… annoyance. Did the 10th boss and you still don’t have the item which is supposed to drop every second time? More annoyance. Finally overcame handling a skill enemies throw at you and you usually struggled with? It counters that again.
Over time that scale shifts in a direction of enjoyment or frustration overall. The more ‘small issues’ a game has the less impact for good situations as they just ‘make up for it’… and the worse the actual negative situations until it boils over.
Now a person usually takes the last major grating experience as ‘the one’ to say ‘this is the reason’ while it actually was everything at once, every… single… little detail there together.
Like me making a massive post about the state of MG back when I quite MG finally for good. 2 hours farming to lead into 90 minutes listing? Just was the last straw.
Or my 60 ring disaster where not a single attribute one happened in a tow while using up tons of materials? Bad luck but not as impactful for me, others would quite over that permanently since that’s such a statistical outlier.
The task of devs is to ensure that polish is as high as possible and content as smooth as possible to avoid those ‘needlessly grating’ experiences. Because grating experiences are a inherent thing in game-design to happen… a challenge is after all grating but the positive experience for overcoming it is much much bigger then the frustration building before. That’s the goal.
But mechanical shortcomings cannot be ‘overcome’. They just build frustration, hence you need to ensure they exist as little as possible… as they just accumulate negative feelings without providing any positives like said challenge.
Yeah, it’s sloooowly getting there.
I can only remind about the one thing: I treat the game as if it were a fully released proper product.
Not the state it is currently in, it’s still a pre-release candidate after all. No major balance pass, not the finished planned content and many many ‘polishing issues’ in many areas, especially UI issues and MG for me as example.
EHG decided to release and hence I treat it as a product which is supposed to be that exact state. I cannot do otherwise with a clear conscience, much like I couldn’t treat No Man’s SKy for years after release (despite becoming extremely swiftly better and better) treat it more then a ‘failure’. Up until it went far enough towards what was promised initially to shift perception. Because nothing else is ‘right towards the customer’ which I am one after all.
Nowadays? A fantastic game! I hope EHG can make LE into a second No Man’s Sky. I know full well though that those situations are so rare they’re close to a miracle.
Yes, absolutely. But I’ll go from my own professional experience in another field, carpentry:
Just because ‘you do this thing for a specific reason’ doesn’t mean that there won’t be exceptions applying.
You gotta get down and always ask ‘why is that done as it is?’ and adjust accordingly to the outcome of that.
For example if I need to cut down a precise piece of wood for a sort of veneer with a pattern on it (Inlays for example can be the case) and my table saw just has a failure… I cannot simply stop working now, can I? I need to know ‘Why exactly did I do it this way? What was the upside?’ and then I need to follow up with copying the method to another way of producing it.
‘I need precision’… Ok… a clamping device which allows me to guide a manual saw near perfectly.
‘I need this thickness exactly’… Ok… a method to ensure I don’t have to measure repeatedly but instead just shove it into position and start working.
As well as the differences which happen!
‘Inherent less precision for cuts means I need more material’… Ok… I need to prepare a bit more.
‘It won’t be as precise and hence not as flat as the machine’… Ok… I need to maybe use another tool to plane it properly later rather then just sanding it lightly.
And so on and so forth. You don’t just copy, you need to understand the process in detail for what you do. The when, why and how.
For example: Why exactly did GGG create the map items and not have it freely available like EHG with their end-game, endless re-tries? Why exactly did Blizzard make the Greater Rifts as a design mechanic in their game? Why exactly are there several extremely valuable methods to use the Gold currency in PoE besides using it for the market? And especially a non-stop time-based sink that can be made extremely massive in amount?
And so on and so forth. Each teaches a specific sub-concept of the total.
Yes, and that’s absolutely fine! You don’t need to have the same level or even types of expectations as others do, but the company needs to uphold a quality to please even those with high expectations.
And I also get that it’s a high ask of any company to uphold that, as you said, it’s difficult to uphold the balance between many systems there.
But I’ll go again towards the carepntry example:
As a customer you want your wardrobe to be in your bedroom. The one you paid for and without faults, right?
So… now you might be a customer which sees it installed, the carpenters leave and you nod and are happy.
Or… you might be one which then goes and checks for any even small blemishes. Miniscule bump at the side? That’s not what you ordered! A little scratch at the glass-front panel? Also not! You ordered a pristine product after all! So you call in and say ‘There’s 2 blemishes, I want em fixed’.
As a carpenter what is now your task? To swing that backside over towards the place and fix it, free of charge, without grumbling. Bumped it at the way up over winding stairs for 5 floors when it weights 60 KG and you’re 2 people? Tough luck, that’s part of the job! And you gotta do it now and not later. It doesn’t matter to the customer that you got 20 other jobs which need to happen, they ordered that date and expect hence a perfect product that exact date, no excuses.
The same happens with video games simply, it’s no difference there. One person sees that there’s a visual bug? It’s grating? Better have it fixed in a week after mentioning it, that’s gotta be in the plan.
The only difference is that there’s hundreds of those things happening at once in such a large scale product. But it doesn’t change the part that it all needs to be done when it was expected to be done or only shortly after. Every single failure there costs customers and provides rightful complaints.
That would be really worrying. I give em the benefit of the doubt with it being a needed strategic choice to not get into financial trouble rather then that. Not nice but at least understandable then, trying to make up for former mistakes in the only way possible rather then making one humongous and obvious mistake.
Yep, that cought me off-guard as well. The big summoner rework especially - as I love minion playstyle - being such a kick into the ass for everyone playing necro outside of abom? Big ‘Oof’ there 
Yes, exactly that!
I agree 100% with that, absolutely so.
As for the sticking around: As long as EHG doesn’t do anything too outrageous I’m definitely sticking around as well. I’M a gamer at heart, it’s my biggest hobby. I’m keeping at least track even if I’m not giving money to them currently and playing very very little.
If they adjust things a bit I’ll play more.
If they manage to bring it into a 1.0 worthy state I’ll also provide em with money.
If they do something outrageous or simply ‘let it slip gradually’? Well… then like in Black Desert Online I’ll be simply ‘gone’ one day.
I use my money very precise. I support 2 Live-service games at any time, not more and not less. And I buy into products I personally find support-worthy or which I personally want to play.
And yes, the last 2 are a difference. I bought ‘Inscryption’ but don’t intent to play it, I know the outcome already and the secrets, but the devs made a really unique creative product for example, so I support em.
I would enjoy it of EHG with LE could become a company where I can say ‘Yeah… they deserve my money simply for what they do’ since I want the sector to produce quality. That’s why I bought Baldur’s Gate 3 as well despite not having had the urge to start it up. I know when I do I’ll have a blast though from start to end.
It has at least long-term farming potential for the 4 LP grind, but yeah, it’s not a ‘impactful’ thing beyond the first buy.
I understand that EHG needs to ‘build up’ a portfolio of content to make the game long-term worthwhile, I would just enjoy it if they focused on things which provide the ability to go in and re-do stuff without growing bored for a longer time rather then those short-term impactful things. Keep people busy while they manage the other stuff.
They definitely are a bit… lackluster. Needs definite expansion of the system, it’s a bit… simplistic sadly.
BUt the core idea is a solid one at least.
Knee jerk reactions are those which showcase ‘hey, I had high expectations and you ran short’.
Those are extremely important reviews as they tell you more then just the words inside of em.
Any review is a good review if you know how to read it, most people and companies sadly don’t do, and even those which do can easily get it wrong from time to time.
But ignoring em is clearly the wrong direction
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I didn’t play season 3 because it looked like a D4 season. No end game, just a boring mechanic and a vendor. Didn’t play season 2 either, I wonder why I bought this game long time ago.
Because it looked good on paper and before ~0.8 everything went in a good direction… at least on paper? Just taking a guess ^^.
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Can’t really disagree. It’s pretty lackluster and bare bones. Bare ancient bones you might say. I was first disappointed with the lacking Necro changes for standard zoo minions. Then just with the S3 mechanics. It’s all pretty meh. Maybe S4 will be better with all that new Krafton money. Oh well…at least PoE2 S3 starts soon and the changes are pretty massive including Necro minion changes.
Well at least toying arround with flay is fun to me so I get a few hours of fun out of it and I have nothing much to do untill POE2 S3 starts. Things could be worse.
Yeah I still been having fun just coming up with my own zoo build and playing around with the TRex but I think it will be shortlived.
player numbers are decent though: Last Epoch - Steam Charts
I don’t agree that the season “sucks”, it’s just a bit of a filler one compared to season 2 which was really epic and great.
Still have high hopes for Season 4 and the skill sigil system enabling tons of new builds, and to be honest, right now there’s a ton of builds that can be made and at least somewhat compete with meta ones, but people don’t want to think or put in that much effort so they remain unknown & unplayed.
Given that it was 150k last release that’s absolutely atrocious numbers actually. You can say LE lost 40% total users in 3 months potentially. Obviously not quite true but it’s for sure not a great result.
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to put things into perspective, the top 10 steam played list varies from 60k concurrent to 1 mil with counterstrike being top spot, 250k concurrent would put LE at between #3 and #4, 75k puts it at #9 of global most played games on steam.
For a relatively new game, from a small studio that’s actually a great result, if they play their cards right with krafton’s huge resources and ability to hire more talent, they could potentially stay in top 10 or 20, that’s actually more than can be said for D4, and season 2 of PoE 2.
Perspective is a great thing https://steamcharts.com/
And yes, the 250k concurrent peak with streamers and youtubers praising the game did massively boost its popularity temporarily, but retaining all those players cannot be expected, people are curious by nature, once they have sated that curiosity they move on.
Currently there just isn’t enough content to keep players engaged for multiple months, pro gamers zoom through the content in a week or two and move on.
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You forgot a 4th type:
The people which enjoy the game, know that there are aspects to the game which need improvement/aren’t as satisfying but which nonetheless still enjoy the game as a whole.
You can know there are issues in the game but that the good outweighs the bad and thus you’re still happy with it.
Yeah, those numbers are highly inflated currently for the ‘permanent’ state, that’s obvious, always was since 1.0 and EHG is in a good enough position on the market to capitalize on it if done well.
The issue is that those start to fall gradually as we can see with 1.3. 1.2 was… not as impactful as people wanted, and now 1.3 is kinda disappointing.
The question is more ‘how long can LE sustain itself like that?’ without getting into the content depth needed for long-term sustainment?
If EHG managed to provide that before interest turns around then they’re golden, but it’s now a sorta ticking time-bomb. They’re reliant on the competition messing up, on PoE 2 dimpling around further by screwing up their own core methodology for crafting established in PoE 1 and nobody else coming into a proper position.
They’re able to turn it around still, but that won’t last forever, people tend to grow tired after a while, and that’s starting to become a bit visible by now.
Still a great position overall to be in! But it’s currently ‘borrowed time’ and not a solid positioning. There’s few games which manage to make the transition from one to another in general.
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