The new defence system and its future

[LizardIRL]

I suggest you to watch RIP clips and runs from the different patches.

Before runs always ended due to players mistakes, now u get 1 tabbed by a grey mob.

[Rimed]

If is was just pushing high end arena I would agree with you. But this is not the case to what I am referencing too.
You can get one shot even maxed out gear without doing high waves.

[ZaeN]

This was always the case prior to 0.7.10

The only difference is you farmed 1k hour to get the amu and craft X as phys and rolled around with that combo

Now that the combo (and stuff like ward) is gone, it’s been discovered how arena scaling and monsters damage balance is bonkers

[LizardIRL]

I don’t even know where to start.

[Llama8]

Think about what you want to write, then leave it for an hour or so then re-read it & ask yourself if you’ve included the pertinent background info.

[benj92]

Lets try to be constructive and provide a solution:

Problem:

Health is the only infinite scaling defense right now, it scales badly. If you start endgame you have roughly 1000hp, if you gear out you have roughly 2000hp. This is for every char that doesnt have percentage increase health on nodes.

Fix:

Give the archetypes that are suppose to be tanky more health and/or armor.

Make the scaling of health more impactful. Investing in health gear you should go from 1000hp to 4000hp (for example)

Make armor the secondary infinite scaling system (or make the diminishing return way less punishing). Rework all the nodes that give armor to respect class identity. Make the armor implicit you get from gear BIG ranges, this way the armor percentage increase affixes could be an option to gear for (instead of going health). Maybe have health on implicit gear too.

Give mages more mana.

New class defenses:

• Sentinel: armor, block
• Primalist: health
• Mage: ward, mana (take dmg as mana before health mechanic needs to be more prominent)
• Acolyte: leech, lower health > more dmg (acolyte doesnt need buffs)

Now we have gearing options:

• Go health on classes that benefit from them
• Go armor on classes that benefit from them
• Go mana on classes that benefit from them
• Go full dps on classes that benefit from them
• Do whatever you want on any class!!!

[Rimed]

I can agree with this, and don’t think that infinite scaling this the issue or the solution but make the caps harder to reach and feel good when you get there.

Then balance the game accordingly.

[Madriax]

@LizardIRL

Like @Rimed summerized perfectly, we now have mono where gear does not matter becouse it is too easy, and arena where gear does not matter becouse you get 1 shoted no matter what gear you have.

As I mentioned in my post above, I can’t see in your newly linked vids that you are actually one-shotted - you take multiple hits so quickly you have no time to react to regain health or drink a potion or reposition.

I clicked through frame by frame as best I could.

In the first vid, you take a hit of 1011 followed immediately by another for 1150 = death.
In the second, you take a hit of around 400 and then another 2 big hits but I can’t see the actual numbers.

I’m on your side, believe me! I am trying my own methods to try to resolve this.

Both of your deaths were to melee this time, not ranged but I do think the distinction needs to be made between

1. defenses/gearing and
2. attacks that happen so fast that no amount of defenses can deal with right now.

@darkdeal

There will be a point in Arena where it will outscale anything you can find in the game. Arena then becomes a game of not getting hit. I don’t know why that means anything is wrong.

This is a very valid point, but melee chars are suffering more than ranged by the very nature of being close enough to be hit in the first place.

I know this is a thread about the defense system, but until something is done about having to take multiple shots that won’t individually kill you but happen all at once and so fast that the player cannot react, then we’ll be going round in circles modifying defenses.

I’m not so sure the damage receiving is at fault, maybe it’s the damage delivery.

[Llama8]

I like ~99% of that, though I would worry about the mana regen required to sustain the “damage taken from ward” and if the player had that regen but didn’t take the defence, that would probably give them “too much” regen (or you could tie in the regen to the defensive stat).

[Rimed]

I think a high mana pool and ward area good approach mage needs to have better regen to sustain high mana pools anyway.

[ZaeN]

@Rimed

To me this isn’t just an end game system thing. but a gearing issue how every you want to gear your character there is only so far and so much you can do and it caps rather quickly.

Another case in point you don’t have to gear for monolith much to be able to do it. I have ran a reflect/ retaliation mege with no gear at level 40 clearing the entire 55 timeline. on the other side I just took off my gear but weapons and boots and can pull an entire echo at ;eve; 100 empowered and face tank everything. I am not trying to boast or anything like that but to make this makes gear feel irrelevant

So the gearing for endgame doesn’t really matter. Same for arena bc you will get one shot anyway and this was not really the case before.

TLDR: Gear doesn’t matter much right now either you will get one shot when you get hit anyway in arena or you can just face tank the entire monolith system naked. your passives and skill matter more than anything

I don’t see anything wrong with monolith since it is not supposed to be a dick measuring contest or sweatshop just to drop two shards affix.

And certainly the bosses have these oneshots and will kill you if you go around with random gear and stack these dmg mods.

About the chase, i think EHG misses the point in making these mods uber rare, it should rather be the opposite,
to have a lote more class mods and plentiful of these so that you drop so much class specific stuff that you want to roll multiple chars to try them on (as is the case of GD)

[benj92]

Maybe just giving mages flat more mana and the option for ward building is enough, did not think that one through that much.

[ZaeN]

Yep monster damage is exactly the same as 0.7.9 but you couldnt care less about monster damage and balance in 0.7.9 because you had that specific gear. Just now the X as phys is gutted and all i see is some tears because we cant use that combo anymore

[darkdeal]

I watched both you posted and they were both at wave 220+. I don’t know what you are expecting.

[LizardIRL]

Damage is not the same.

1- monster damage got reduced x level
2- monsters got 75% penetration.
3- Rare monsters got shred.

You are just beeing ignorant here, sorry.
I would also love to know what conversion has to do with taking 1000 physical damage autos from normal mobs.

[mirolino]

@Rimed

Build identity. I feel outside of block and ward for spell blade pushing actual challenging end game content. There are very ways to build differently. I would like to see some be class specific in proficiency.

homogenize is not a good thing, class identity, build identity, this is really interesting topics, this helps alot with game longevity, replayability and ofc, some strenghts in each classes, defensive strenghts and dont keep mandatory, give options, interesting passives etc, some niche builds is good too (in the future i will try to make a Ward Paladin xD)

@Rimed

If there is no chase and not interesting ways to progress your character. People will only play for a few hours and move on.

If there no interesting way to build a char, defensive options, interesting different options (for defensive, like holy aura have) and INTERESTING WAYS TO BUILD AND PROGRESS your character, build and progression is really important topics, not only build, but progression, you made a really valid and good point, people will lose interest and move on.

[LizardIRL]

They are both this patch xd

Arena last patch

Scroll to arena 200 ish
Look at the damage i took by the hardest hitting enemy in arena at wave 420.
I died becouse I fucked up and got hit by a telegraph. Deserved.
Now I die for looking at normal mobs.

The game has complety changed.

[ZaeN]

@LizardIRL

Damage is not the same.

1- monster damage got reduced x level
2- monsters got 75% penetration.
3- Rare monsters got shred.

You are just beeign ignorant here, sorry.

Err yes if players got a 75% res and monsters got a 75% res pen then damage is the same, you lost that dope X as phys conversion and are now getting blapped by arena scaled mobs autoattacks as it was already in 0.7.9

but i wont waste more time here since all you do is call other people noobs so ill leave you to your elitist tears

@Sarno

• Protections have been replaced by Resistances (e.g. 25% Fire Resistance), with a resistance cap of 75%.
• Enemies have 1% resistance penetration per area level (up to 75%). This penetration applies after the resistance cap.

[LizardIRL]

If an enemy did 100 damage and you had 0 prots.
you took 100 damage.

If an anemy does 100 damage now and you have 0 prots,
you take 175 damage.

If an enemy did 100 damage and you had 75% prots.
you took 25 damage.

If an anemy does 100 damage now and you have 75% prots,
you take 100 damage.

Enemies do more damage with the new formula.
The base values barely got nerfed, and they got base penetration.
Base penetretion didn’t exist and its part of enemy damage.

[Llama8]

@ZaeN

About the chase, i think EHG misses the point in making these mods uber rare, it should rather be the opposite, to have a lote more class mods and plentiful of these so that you drop so much class specific stuff that you want to roll multiple chars to try them on (as is the case of GD)

I think they could definitely do with adding more class-specific affixes and having some of them relatively common & some rare.

And the Sentinel’s “X damage taken as phys” needs to be removed or reworked (maybe into % damage reduction for X damage).