The issue of EHG mid-cycle skill change stance

[Ember_Salis]

@Darthelmet

On the other hand, someone else’s build being stronger than yours doesn’t directly affect you. This isn’t a PvP game. There is no meta. You’re not going to be unable to succeed and have fun because your build is fair and some other build isn’t.

Not balancing the game has little to do with other players, and has more to do with how content is designed.
Content is often scaled to the builds that are either most optimal, or directly below the most optimal. That is so the game is not too easy for even casual gamers (the campaign in LE is within that threshold of being borderline too easy (but again, it’s build dependant)).
By not adjusting overperforming builds, that creates a greater divide in difficulty on a per build basis; This is fundamentally bad design. At that point why not just add a class that has cheat engine enabled, while every other class is “balanced”?

There’s also another issue where prolonged balance issues can skew the perception of underperforming/overperforming builds. In essence what I mean is; EHG giving themselves “1 attempt per cycle” to get balance of a skill/build right isn’t going to work. This only results in overnerfing or not nerfing enough (or the inverse), or even forgetting the class/skill exists. I’ve seen it time and time again in PoE.

[Kulze]

@DJSamhein

If you’re using profane veil with bone curse without stacking minion health and are getting 10k ward from it, you’re not abusing the game.

But… you are!
You’re getting all the upsides from Profane Veil with no downside.
You can slap minion damage instead of minion health on every item, utterly demolishing content with it.
So being tuned down to 1k is what you should have. The build isn’t broken, you’ll simply only be able to run 150 corruption suddenly instead of 300. Or with the minion health stacking… 2000 or so.

So yes, it falls in the same category.

@Ember_Salis

Not balancing the game has little to do with other players, and has more to do with how content is designed.

Exactly that. Replayability has value.
If you go in with a build and it overperforms in such a ridiculous way that everything else in comparison feels bad you’re not incentivized to make a second character afterwards.
Instead… you quit.

[DJSamhein]

@Kulze

You can slap minion damage instead of minion health on every item, utterly demolishing content with it.

How would minion damage help in any way? That build uses chtonic fissure to kill, which doesn’t scale with minion damage. The only minion you have is the bone curse ones and the only benefit you get from it is with minion health.

[Darthelmet]

@DJSamhein

First, things weren’t untested. They used community testing for these things. Just not global testing.
Second, at some point they would have to release the game. And since it’s a live service, they will still create new systems and mechanics. Everything new they release from now on is just community tested. So if they released masteries and factions into EA, whichever new thing they would come up with for 1.0, you’d be saying the exact same thing. And the game would never leave EA.

I said they shouldn’t have added ANYTHING new to 1.0. Add all of that stuff beforehand, let as many people as possible test it, then go to 1.0 with that patch and maybe a bit of polish. Them privately testing the thing with a handful of streamers isn’t the same thing as getting a wide public playtest. You get thousands of times as many eyeballs to look for issues once you release it to the public. It’s the best, or perhaps even the only reliable way, to find any issues with a game.

For future stuff, it’s a bit different since there isn’t the same expectations as a release of a game. When the game releases people are gonna be paying $35 for the game. They should expect that it works. (Server issues are pretty bad but somewhat understandable, there’s no real way you could use the smaller early access population to test the massive influx of new players straining the servers on launch.) When the game later drops some free updates, honestly there’s only so much complaining I can sympathize with there.

That said, if they wanted to make sure those live service patches were also up to snuff, there is the option of either having a beta branch or even having an off season where new stuff is added but it’s not part of the cycle yet.

@SomeGuyNamedMelvin

They did nerf a rogue build in order to fix a server issue while leaving the other broken builds alone though. Regardless of the reason that they fixed it, it is shows EHG is inconsistent and has favoritism in a lot of players eyes. Perception is everything. If there are multiple glaring issues like this they should addressed together so players don’t feel targeted. Reading chat and the forums shows this sentiment clearly.

They fixed an issue that was impacting other players. You can’t enjoy the game as much if the servers aren’t working right. You can enjoy the game just as much if some other build you aren’t playing is too strong.

@Ember_Salis

Not balancing the game has little to do with other players, and has more to do with how content is designed.
Content is often scaled to the builds that are either most optimal, or directly below the most optimal.

I didn’t say they should never nerf/fix these skills, just that they shouldn’t do it in the middle of a cycle where people are already invested in playing them. I’d be mad if they, after this patch cycle, decided to keep it as is then just make all the content harder to account for that. But clearly that’s not the plan here. They’re going to nerf it eventually, they’re not going to adjust difficulty around a build outside the power range they balance around. This is a non-issue.

[ApacheVE3D]

One thing I appreciated about Diablo III was that Blizzard was not afraid to throw the nerf hammer for stuff like this.

[hybridsr86]

In any other game, the bug would be fixed, or the skill/passive points locked so that players can’t abuse it. Here the exploiters are rewarded with a leaderboard of exploiters.

If you think this is okay, then you literally have never played an online game with leaderboards. Also, in other games, this is considered an exploit and exploiters get banned.

Either:

A- Remove leaderboards, as they’re just full of Warlock noobs exploiting this interaction that requires minimal investment

or

B- Lock the passive point/remove it until you can fix it and you can reset the leaderboards after you do that

Leaving it like this is absolute madness.

[DJSamhein]

@Darthelmet

I said they shouldn’t have added ANYTHING new to 1.0.

So, as I said, the game would never leave EA. Because there’s always something new to add. 1.1 will have something new. Should they go back to EA so you can test it yourself? 1.2 will have something new. Should they just keep going live and then back to EA?
New stuff will keep being added to the game every time for years (hopefully). At some point they’d have to leave EA and start with a different testing model.

@Darthelmet

Them privately testing the thing with a handful of streamers isn’t the same thing as getting a wide public playtest.

It’s not just a handful of streamers.
And yes, a wide public playtest is always better. But once you launch the game, you no longer have that option. Do you also think PoE should have wide public testing before each season? It’s impractical and ruins the seasonal suprise/flavor.

@Darthelmet

That said, if they wanted to make sure those live service patches were also up to snuff, there is the option of either having a beta branch or even having an off season where new stuff is added but it’s not part of the cycle yet.

That’s what D3 did with PTRs and it was an awful. It completely ruined the season for many people.

[Darthelmet]

@DJSamhein

So, as I said, the game would never leave EA. Because there’s always something new to add. 1.1 will have something new. Should they go back to EA so you can test it yourself? 1.2 will have something new. Should they just keep going live and then back to EA?
New stuff will keep being added to the game every time for years (hopefully). At some point they’d have to leave EA and start with a different testing model.

Like I said. Free post launch updates are a LOT different than the part where you do an advertising blitz and tell everyone to come buy the $35 game. I’ve seen way more negativity around the game since launch than I ever saw in early access. Part of that is just having more people, but part of that is the expectations have changed. Hell, I’ve been getting more frustrated with the game since launch than I did before. When the game was still in early access I could shrug off bugs and other problems because this is what I signed up for and I figured they’d get fixed by launch. Then launch comes around and not only does it introduce a mess of new bugs, there are bugs that I reported well over a year ago still in the game despite the release suggesting it was ready to go. I may have bought into the game a long time ago, but I bugged a friend to get the game at launch and he’s been really put off by all the problems we’ve been experiencing with it.

Clearly they had some vision for what they thought was worth including before launching. All of that stuff needed to be fully tested ahead of time. Anything that comes later on is a different story.

[DJSamhein]

As I meantioned before in other threads, EA is not meant to fix bugs. Almost all games that use the EA model release the game still with the bugs. Like BG3, for example.
The point of EA is simply to give and receive feedback on the systems introduced. Which is what happened several times with LE’s systems. It’s the only reason why we have factions rather than just gifts, which is what they wanted. If LE didn’t have EA, at this point it would have no trade or CoF.

And like I said, if you wait until all the systems are in place and all bugs ironed out, the game will never leave EA. There are still 3 chapters missing in campaign, there are still skills missing, there are still endgame options which EHG wants in the game missing. If all of those were required to be released in EA the game wouldn’t launch for another 5 years at least, and EHG would go bankrupt.

EDIT: And also, like I mentioned before, just because it wasn’t tested in EA doesn’t mean it wasn’t tested. I have no idea of the size of the community testing team, but I’m pretty sure it’s more than a “handful of streamers”. Just like GGG has a testing team and Blizzard as well.

[Kulze]

@DJSamhein

How would minion damage help in any way? That build uses chtonic fissure to kill, which doesn’t scale with minion damage. The only minion you have is the bone curse ones and the only benefit you get from it is with minion health.

Then any other.
You have free affixes through that method, simple as that. It’s of no matter how you use em, you have an advantage simply.

@Darthelmet

They’re going to nerf it eventually

‘Eventually’ is the downfall of any game, company, product, service.

@Darthelmet

You can enjoy the game just as much if some other build you aren’t playing is too strong.

Tell that the competitive people, which are usually long-term core players of LE. It’s not good to piss off your core players, and yes, they’re always a minority, and yes, they’re actually as important as shorter term ones, specifically because many of them include streamers.

@hybridsr86

Leaving it like this is absolute madness.

In every regard agreed.

@DJSamhein

So, as I said, the game would never leave EA.

Non-functioning nodes for skills, a direly under-tested faction system (with utterly blatant mistakes which shouldn’t even happen on the drawing board) and taking all relevancy away from ever playing in ‘cycle’ outside of a vast minority is definitely worthwhile to take into consideration for a pushback of a release date.

You don’t need to fix all issues… you need at least handle the utterly glaring issues though.
Your mentality is what gives devs nowadays a free pass to do whatever they want. No company deserves your goodwill for messing up, a free pass. It deserves a hefty chip in that, eyes being sceptic as to how they handle it and then regarding the outcome after a pat on the shoulder while saying ‘well done’ or people turning away.
One of those 2 solutions, not crawling along in their wake as they kick back down repeatedly.

And yes, I hold EHG in high standards nonetheless, but that doesn’t mean I excuse fuck-ups. They gotta fix it, I imagine they’ll fix stuff… they gotta to it properly to make up for it though. Simple as that.

@DJSamhein

Do you also think PoE should have wide public testing before each season?

Does PoE have several core nodes of their characters not working?
Does PoE have a broken faction system nobody is fully happy with as soon as cross-interactions need to occur?

Nah, PoE has different problems, vastly different - and as big ones - but not those. And in the course of 2 weeks they are fixed.

Their stance on not influencing the skills afterwards is up to debate, but those glaring broken mechanics? Commonly not. And if… then only inside their league while Standard is not affected at all during that time.

@Darthelmet

Part of that is just having more people, but part of that is the expectations have changed.

Exactly, in EA you have a lot of leeway. The second you say ‘It’s released’… that leeway is gone for good. Now it needs to work. Period.

@DJSamhein

EA is not meant to fix bugs

Tell me what EA is for by design then?
I for one say it’s the following: A way to finance your game during production while also providing the ability to test the game out and as a win-win giving developers the knowledge of existing bugs.

So… what happens when EA is over?
People obviously expect the problems existing during EA to be fixed. Glaring problems which impact gameplay, not small little annoying stuff. Miniscule issues are post EA for sure! Others though? Nonono… you can’t give a free pass for that. Those need to be ironed out properly, it’s why you made EA after all, making people pay for a unfinished product, so you don’t have to release it faulty.

@DJSamhein

If LE didn’t have EA, at this point it would have no trade or CoF.

If the hefty bugs currently existing weren’t in it instead?
Where can I sign up?

@DJSamhein

There are still 3 chapters missing in campaign, there are still skills missing

Which baffles me even more that they say ‘it’s released’. They don’t even have their main story finished, they threw a ‘Wolcen’ in that regard if anyone still knows about that disaster of a game.

@DJSamhein

there are still endgame options which EHG wants in the game missing. If all of those were required to be released in EA the game wouldn’t launch for another 5 years at least, and EHG would go bankrupt.

I’ll leave the endgame options out, because plainly spoken? The current ones more then suffice for a 1.0, for a release version. Missing campaign, broken skills, badly implemented factions on the other hand don’t.
I’ll at every single day of the week give them leeway for server problems with such a massive amount of player influx… doesn’t excuse the other parts.

@DJSamhein

And also, like I mentioned before, just because it wasn’t tested in EA doesn’t mean it wasn’t tested.

You know… ‘testing’ something doesn’t only involve some alpha-/beta-testers, slapping them in front of a screen and saying ‘now play and tell me what’s wrong!’.
For the trading system a economics expert should’ve been considered to go over the overall draft. A plan for item acquisition rates should’ve been made so both CoF and MG are properly aligned with the progression pace… and also a testing environment where the values from the system are tested against hand input values on a spreadsheet. And you know… if they differ you have a bug, which is the case in several situations we have.

So don’t tell me it was ‘properly tested’, because it wasn’t. They skipped a step and that can happen, it’s fine, we can go and forget about it… but the truth it that it shouldn’t have happened but has, so it’s a blemish on their record simply. Doesn’t need to be something big, unless they fuck up to clean after themselves now.

[DJSamhein]

@Kulze

You don’t need to fix all issues… you need at least handle the utterly glaring issues though.
Your mentality is what gives devs nowadays a free pass to do whatever they want. No company deserves your goodwill for messing up, a free pass. It deserves a hefty chip in that, eyes being sceptic as to how they handle it and then regarding the outcome after a pat on the shoulder while saying ‘well done’ or people turning away.
One of those 2 solutions, not crawling along in their wake as they kick back down repeatedly.

My mentality is only that the game is fun to play, even with those issues. So as long as EHG makes LE fun to play, they will get a pass on many many issues.
The fact that EHG is very open in its feedback to and from the community (less so now with the invasion of players whose only form of communication is insults), just makes me a little more tolerant.

EHG might have said that they won’t work on LE anymore and I would still be happy with this game. It was well worth the 35€ and even without any more changes I would still play it for years to come.

It’s the same reason I had the same mentality with Blizzard, because I still play D2 to this day. It took a huge amount of crap from them for me to change my mind.

[111tweedledee111]

I have stated in 4 different threads by now, including this one, that i am in favor of a bugfix. Somebody was asking why EHG adopts the stance it is currently holding and i have tried to answer that question. You may not like that reason or think it isn’t a good reason - that’s entirely up to you. You are as entitled to your opinion as anybody. We are actually more or less on the same page here. But please don’t start your rants with a remark, what I should or should not mean, putting words into my mouth. That is entirely uncalled for.

[Kulze]

Sorry, that was unintentional. Never what I wanted to do.
I sincerely apologize for that since it’s quite bad behavior and I’m sometimes falling into it nonetheless.

[111tweedledee111]

All good! We are humans.

[Krzysz]

Just fix game bugs ASAP if you want to have healthg game it is that simple.

[hybridsr86]

-Fix the ward exploits. I don’t care if exploiters cry about it, they are exploiters. In other games exploiters get banned.

(I can’t actually believe we need to vote to fix obvious exploits…)

-Tone down Ward Gain in general (for builds that it’s obvious that they’re criminally overperforming, not others where it’s fair).

-Make other defensive layers a bit better, since some of them are currently a joke compared to Ward.

-Remove this cycle’s lederboad. It’s currently a joke that they’re still up having a major exploit like Profane Ward. This cycle is over as far as I’m concerned. A ton of people have been running an exploit for 3 weeks now and they’re showered in items since they can run 2k corruption with minimal effort. So having a leaderboard during this circus is a joke. It’s not even a leaderboard at this point, it’s a “Who Abused This Bug Harder?” list of characters.

-If possible, make leaderboards for HC SSF and HC SAF because they aren’t the same as regular cycle accounts/characters.

[PatentPendin]

Been through this with POE.
Yes it’s not perfect, but the mid season nerfs made people quit the game, while end of season nerfs people still played.

Mid season/cycle nerfs/buffs are season/cycle killers. People don’t like to put in 200 hours on a character to have it nerfed and made unviable.

End of cycle adjustments work best over time and keep the player base instead of losing it.

[hybridsr86]

@PatentPendin

Mid season/cycle nerfs/buffs are season/cycle killers. People don’t like to put in 200 hours on a character to have it nerfed and made unviable.

If you think letting people exploit the game, get showered in rewards for bug abusing is better than nerfing mid season and pissing off those same EXPLOITERS, then

A- you’re Profane Ward user
or
B- You’re not thinking at all.

[PatentPendin]

If you think the game is going to be perfect in the first cycle:

@hybridsr86

You’re not thinking at all.

I stated real internal research done by GGG. There are plenty of seminars on youtube you can watch where this very subject is discussed openly and how it effects the player retention.

[hybridsr86]

@PatentPendin

There are plenty of seminars on youtube you can watch

Imagine thinking someone needs a seminar to understand that you’re pissing off 70% of your playerbase by allowing exploiters to get rewarded with items and a leaderboard entry, while everyone else struggles to reach 1/4th of the corruption bug abusers are reaching.

Don’t @ me, you’re trolling or straight up pretending so your bug abusing build doesn’t get nerfed.