The Crafting Problem

Not so. To switch to LL you also have to invest into ward retention, which is useless until you go into LL. So until you get the items, you won’t be crafting anything ward related, once you get the items (more than one, just a single one isn’t generally worth it), then you have to switch some affixes around to get ward related bonuses.

There’s a ton of em in Elden Ring compared to any other FS game. It’s the only one that caved in that respect. It’s also one of the reasons many DS fans aren’t great fans of it, still preferring the DS series or Bloodborne.

The QoL stuff I mention is simply stuff they added in Elden Ring (like the map or the statues of Marika, for example) and stuff they haven’t added even to Elden Ring (like a quest tracker, using multiple items at once, etc). Stuff that is requested often on their forums and that they refuse to add.

The prevalence of outliers will be the same with both systems. The distribution is still the same. The only difference is that one has outliers that are closer to the average, one has them further away. But this works for both sides of the curve, meaning less bad outliers also means less good outliers.

This isn’t true. I think you’re not using the terms correctly.
Both graphs will have the same distribution and both will have the same number of outliers. The only difference is that in one system an outlier is getting several 15+ results in a row and in the other it’s getting several 7s in a row (or 2- and 5s for the other side of it).
Both generate the same outliers, they’re just closer to the average in one case.

The only way to change the distribution to be different and have no outliers is to have a fixed cost.

This is not a problem, it’s a preference. You don’t like it, so you feel it’s a problem. Others like it, so they feel it’s a feature.

In theory, you could drop a mirror during the campaign. And it has in fact happened before.

I do. And, based on how EHG designed things, so do they.
In PoE crafting is an item creator. You pick an item and start from scratch, most often.
In LE crafting is a drop enhancer. It takes drops as a base value and just enhances them.

Different designs for different philosophies.
Everything in LE is geared towards drops being the most important thing.
Everything in PoE is geared towards crafts (and consequently trade where someone crafted for you) being the most important thing.

Endgame gear in LE is all drop based, endgame gear in PoE is all craft based.

The amount of returning people in Season 2 seems to disprove that. There are plenty of people that see crafting as an accessory and not an ultimate goal. Those are the targets for LE.

Not how that works. Just cuz say u or i may never push that far and attempt uber. Or the vast majority wont ever get that far does t mean its not part of the progression

It very much in fact is. It doesnt magically become not part of the progression whether we both go for it or not even the amount of players that can or even will. Doesnt change that one bit

Theres no two ways about it uber is in fact part of progression.

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Which you do by simply collectin the health/ward retention idols anyway as you play along… unless you’re one to let them sit on the ground rather then having 10 of the small ones available? Which are sadly the main amount of retention you’ll get outside of specialized uniques… which you’ll as CoF have stored up anyway as they’re darn easy to get.

I do as well, but that’s not because of the QoL but because Elden Ring is not as well designed difficulty wise as the others. It still kinda gives you that same feel but you tend to steamroll quite a lot of bosses surprisingly. That’s taking away from the overall feeling which the ‘older’ games had, where nigh each boss was a distinct challenge in some way. Also repeated bosses… so many repeated ones.

As for the statues? They’re nice, good addition definitely, positioned surprisingly well often too. The map is a given for such a sizeable game… and quest tracker is a big ‘no’ because you’re supposed to tinker together IF you even have a quest :stuck_out_tongue: That would kinda go counter to that since it would reveal things.

You’re not all too good with the law of large numbers clearly.

Go ahead, say what it does claim and do. You’re not adherring to the main aspect of it.
I recommend to re-read it since you’ve not understood a fundamental aspect of it.

As mentioned… read up on the law of large numbers, what exactly it does and why it’s important.
You clearly don’t understand it and showcase it repeatedly despite my tries to explain.
So it’s useless for me to go on with it, put in the effort yourself, I did several times now with examples, you missed the point entirely and returned to something which is not the law of large numbers but instead the pre-stage, a simple distribution scale.

A mirror has no intrinsic value, it only has extrinsic value through using it on a respectively powerful item.
Hence without an item it is worthless.
The comparison is quite faulty there.

Different philosophies fitting into different systems. Their core Affix setup and variety goes counter to that system, it doesn’t fulfill the core jobs adequately.

Then create a system like a item combination system which enforces drops to be the primary goal still, but still counteracting the variance. Not done though, hence badly designed as it still doesn’t solve the core issues.

Also not true. Crafting is primarily used for rare items. A very sizeable portion of PoEs end-game is focused around acquisition of targeted uniques which have a low drop-rate or a high variance which allows to empower your character substantially further then many rares ever could. It’s just more contained then the ongoing progress of crafting. Still absolutely there. A well rolled watcher’s eye, timeless jewel, megalomaniac, voices, bottled faith and many many more.
For rares you got specialized bases like stygian vises which are a valuable drop, and you have to go out of your way to achieve em as ilvl 86, or run T17 maps which are extremely deadly. For others we got the heist bases which take up the position of a valuable drop, a simplex amulet for example… which avoids the majority of crafting as it can only have 3 Affixes. Besides that rare bases like steel rings, vermillion rings and the likes are also highly sought after. And then you got the actual lucky drops which are above 20% quality drops, hence drop-only and not achievable via crafting. Those simply take the position for those things.

No drop, no craft.

Really? Do they now?
Let’s check out what 2 games which released not far after each other after a far too long downtime fare against each other, should we?

Go ahead on SteamDB and showcase the curves.
Ah yes, here you go:

This is a swiftly cut together chart from SteamDB.
The bright green curve represents LE
The dark green curve represents PoE.

I’ve used a shitty online program to swiftly overlay them, timeframe of 1 month to showcase the actual retention.

Do you see how even PoE’s curve is compared to LE’s? Do you also see how despite starting out nigh identical at the beginning (for Steam in case of PoE, it still has a standalone Client on top after all) it swiftly turns into being below PoE for a substantial amount of time before gradually evening back out at the end?

Take into consideration that the starting area where it’s above PoE is because unlike GGG there was the ‘smart’ idea of EHG to release in the middle of the week rather then at the start of a weekend. Commonly the numbers for EHG would’ve been substantially higher for peak players but many people only had the option to try it out when the weekend arrived, this is the reasoning for the delayed starting curve.

Mind you… in a Friday release LE would’ve had a substantially higher peak count then it is visible, hence reaching close to the same players after 1 month in total count? That’s not good.

Yes, there’s many people playing, absolutely. But for those who can actually read those charts it showcases that LE has a downside compared to PoE clearly, it doesn’t have ‘holding power’ like they do despite the game having built up substantial hype even with the shortcomings. It still had the upside of being ‘the fresh wind on the market’ to boost it, it’s not something fixated, established and known since years as a released game contending with the others.

So no… it really doesn’t disprove it, quite the contrary even since end of League PoE numbers are commonly between 40-60% higher when comparing with the starting line then LE’s numbers are.
If we take into consideration the delayed drop-off and reduced peak count this showcases a situation which is distinctly worse then their competitor after all.

A mirror allows you to buy all the gear you want, immediately having BiS gear. How is having a BiS item drop any different from something dropping which immediately gets you that BiS item (as well as BiS items for every other slot)?

The comparison is quite apt, really. For both games, there’s a theoretical chance that the BiS item will drop early in the game.
The difference is that in PoE a mirror has already dropped during the campaign, whereas the theoretical BiS in LE hasn’t dropped for anyone even in endgame.

Sure, a combinator would be a nice addition. PoE didn’t have one until very recently though, so it’s not like it’s an established solution already that we can fault EHG for not having one.

Which is 90% of your gear slots in a typical build.

Those would be jewels, which aren’t part of the gear. They’re part of the skill tree and not part of the gear progression. Much like cluster jewels aren’t.
If you need to arrange your skill tree around to fit them, they’re not gear.

Except PoE bypasses this with trade. As they always did. You buy the bases, craft on them. You don’t wait for them to drop.
Only SSF does and SSF always had a worse time of it than trade, even if they made it a bit easier nowadays (I’ll take your word for it).

Everyone else just buys the bases they need (or for the majority, the crafted result) and drops have value mostly for their market value alone.
Sure, there might be a few exceptions, but those don’t make the rule. So yes, PoE is craft (and trade) based and it’s disingenuous to suggest it isn’t.

Are you seriously trying to compare an established game with more than 10 years of endgame mechanics with a game on it’s third season and limited endgame and trying to say that the retention differences are because of the difference in crafting systems? Because that would be the height of disingenuousness.

Are we still talking about SSF? :wink: If you take a economic exchange into consideration the mechanics after all underly a secondary measure… so the situation changes. Let’s stay at SSF for such stuff hence, makes more sense.

Obviously a valuable item allows you to bypass things. But that’s a side effect of the economy, the inherent use for the item is low until a big hit has been achieved.
But it’s also one which has been mentioned that it causes issues, yes. It’s just been decided that the impact of removing it from the loot table comparatively to allowing a extremely rare drop to still exist was taken in favor of it staying. Good or bad? I really don’t know in this case, probably more negative then positive though to be able to acquire it early.

Still, the common acquisition rate of it is 5000 hours of play-time, and only when those 5000 hours are spent on actively playing with relatively efficient methods. So substantially higher for most.

Yeah, they didn’t have one until roughly 1 1/2 years ago, true. But before that they had a mechanic dedicated to target-crafting (the cemetery, awful design) and the core idea got revamped into that.

Also EHG doesn’t need to take solutions solely from a single competitor now, does it? There’s the crafting system of Grim Dawn, that of TLI, that of Chronicon, adjacent genres also have a serious amount of variety.
It’s not that hard to find fitting ones if you branch out looking for em.
I mean a good example would be the enchantment System of Minecraft even which takes a surprising amount of time with the setup is has nowadays. Having to acquire the individual enchantmens and hence cobbling it into a whole powerful item as you add more and more fitting ones, at a higher and higher cost to do so.
Or survival games where you pick those. Examples are ‘augmentations’ for equipment there, having a base item which then gets through high time-investment piece by piece upgraded. Abiotic factor has a fantastic progression methodology for example with the unlocking of a myriad of varied items and retracing your steps regularly to acquire the ones you’ve already found from places you’ve gone through when you run low.
We could also take the hybrid style games like ‘Elona’ or ‘Elin’ as influx for systems, like their ‘trait based’ food and material system, making it so creation of items are based on the materials, taking over the traits they have, though in their mechanic ‘unlimited’ upwards as the scaling also is ‘unlimited’ in some areas of the game.

You could use extraction methods while destroying items and then infusing them with others.
You could use the ‘build your item’ methodology of piecing it together by rare acquisition of fixed pieces which provide a grand whole when put together.
You can use augmentations to adjust a pre-existing item to reduce the power purely based on the drop while still keeping it as a major importance.
You could use methods to empower equipment and hence allow re-crafting it further with investment, which is a sort of ‘potential unlock’.

There’s a massive myriad of mechanics out there… you cannot tell me that they got to wait on the games of the same genre which have mostly grown complacent over the years to even start putting anything in motion.
If that stays up it only needs a single ‘Stardew Valley’ creator to shame the whole segment the same way as that dev did with Harvest Moon.

If you ignore the itemization of the passive tree sure! Timeless jewels, watcher’s eye, voices, megalomania and so on. Or the flasks with bottled faith, cynderswallow and so on. It’s a relatively even 50/50 split in PoE. There’s some builds which primarily use uniques and do supremely well with the right combinations (albeit rare) and some which primarily use rares and do supremely well.
The only time when a build uses majorly rares is when they go into min-max territory, which is vastly beyond the reasonable expected progression range. We’re talkingthe 1,5kc+ players which sneeze at Uberroth and it falls down, your 2T7 with perfect Affix combinations territory, your 2 LP red ring players.
At least stay in a proper range. I’ve already explained the differences of the top-end and how they change the engagement. It’s a hyperbole example you bring out there… and you usually treat that severely. So don’t use it yourself when it simply fits your bill.

So idols are not gear?
Gotcha… I think we need to remove any thought for itemization from them.

Consumables are also not gear though… so do we need to remove em from talks about itemization too?

So if you need to switch for example from a Health based build to a ward based build passive-points wise to make an item work it’s not gear? Gotcha!

MG does too.
Get random expensive item and bypass all progression. Buy Uberroth item at your second day playing.

What’s your point? Welcome to a economy which is not limited perfectly. Everyone knows GGG has troubles with upholding their economy, hence why they take such severe measures since they lack the ability to do it without those frustrating ones, a core complaint repeatedly.

And you bring that out as a argument?
Come on… you can’t just throw around hail marys like that non-stop.

Also since when have we shifted back to trade after being pushed towards SSF for the majority of the talks since trade obviously changes things on top of a existing system. Needs different limitations on top of the baseline ones.
LE doesn’t do well at the basis even, it’s nonsensical to discuss trade here despite it being suppoed to be ‘50% of the playerbase’ if you remember the lovely 1.0 pre-release talks.

Yes, I do when this game has the same player-counts, obviously I do!
Also obviously I do since a new game has a severe bonus on the market for being more fresh and less ‘played out’. People tend to burn themselves out on things if you let em.
The amount of beta-players since 1.0 is a small fraction, it’s always been like that for most games, people wait for a release before picking it up.

So they damn well shouldn’t already be ‘exhausted’ when they start Day 1 as it’s their 20th time doing the same shit. And despite doing 20 times the same shit in PoE players still retain better then in LE.

It’s a retention curve and not a snapshot ffs…

And then look at the retention curve of PoE when they entered Steam rather then only be standalone and compare it once more… roughly the same. Smooth curve nigh always, outside of mechanical major hiccups.
Did LE have a mechanical hiccup this Cycle? I don’t remember.
Oh crap… PoE had though! They were friggin DDOSed for damn weeks nearly non-stop and still people had a stronger staying power.

So yes, you should damn well compare that, they directly compete and not doing so would be the absolute height of nonsense.

Or are you actively stating now ‘LE is a worse game then PoE because it is lacking because it hasn’t had the time to polish yet’? 5 damn years after their promised release date?
Such a laughable argument…

No, we are talking about PoE (the game as a whole) being craft/trade based in design, not drop based. I think. I kinda lose track sometimes with these very long replies. :stuck_out_tongue:

None of those are drop-centric, though. They’re all craft-centric.

The combinator (or some variant of it) is a good fit for LE because it allows some reuse of failed crafts while still keeping it drop-centric.
Kinda like what they did for uniques with 1.2, letting you reroll LP and letting you reroll uniques while keeping LP/WW.

But that is the flaw in all your arguments about this issue. EHG doesn’t want individual crafts to take a surprising amount of your time. They want you to pick the item, work on it for a couple of minutes and be done with it one way or another.
You are the one that wants to spend a surprising amount of time with individual crafts. Not EHG. And not many players either.

Do you wear them and aren’t dependent on your skill tree to use them? Then yeah, they are gear.

Depends on the consumables. If they directly affect your gear (like runes), then no. If they don’t (like keys) then yes.

You can wear any items you want without switching the passives. You only switch the passives to boost different stuff, but it’s not like you can’t wear a Last Steps of the Living unless you spec your passive tree into it. You still can, it just won’t be as good.
Whereas in PoE, you need to spec your passive tree into it. If only to go searching for jewel sockets that will actually give you the bonuses you want in the range radius.
So I don’t see how you can try to compare both.

Just because it’s a part of your build doesn’t mean it’s part of your gear.

Totally different case.
In PoE you buy 1 base and you know you’ll eventually get the item you want. You’ll work on it for however long and you don’t need to buy another base.
In LE you can buy the base but you’ll likely brick it, so you’ll need to keep buying multiples until you hit what you want. And at that point you’re subject to supply and demand, meaning you’re not likely to be able to afford buying multiples of a good base, if there are even enough for everyone searching for the same. So you’re still dependent on drops to fill the gap.

Comparing the games as a whole to evaluate overall quality is fine, even though we all know that PoE has 10+ years of content and retention rates only improved after several years of adding them.
Comparing the games as a whole and saying that the sole reason LE does poorly is because people don’t like crafting is just silly. Because that is what you implying by saying that in reply to

So that’s just silly.

There are way to many semantics. Half the back and forth conversations aren’t even relevant to the topic.

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Well, then back to track:

We were talking about the crafting system, and hence inherently the whole itemization system. Without taking into affect tertiary aspects like economies, which can play a role but don’t allow the underlying mechanics to simply move away from core design aspects upholding their functionality long-term.

Several there are actually?

‘Build your item’ is based upon acquisition of the individual parts, after assembling you cannot change it for example, or only at a substantial cost like loosing a portion of the parts randomly (for example).
This is a purely drop-centric system, not a craft-centric one.

The difference in-between those is if the power is put either into picking up things and using them ‘as is’ or if you change things around after picking them up.

In the build-box style one you use pieces ‘as is’.

Same with the augmentation one, the core drop itself stays the same and cannot be exchanged, you would’ve your ‘35% res’ on it and it stays 35% res.
Augmentations would solely be fixed additions to it universally applying. To counteract the RNG of drops. A more powerful drop still has a more powerful end product, and a less powerful drop a less powerful end-product.
The difference solely is that you can fix shortcomings of an item this way. ‘If it had just dropped with some fire res, then I could use it!’ → fire res goes on, augment place used up.
Also obviously the augmentations need to be solely an enhancement and not the majority of power, otherwise the percentile of value for the build which drops directly hold is reduced accordingly.

Empowering on the other hand is craft-centric, absolutely! It’s inherently about changing a item.

But as mentioned… you cannot have a non-craft game of this complexity, you’ll have to take the sour taste of it with you, there is no realistic expectation of a functioning product of this scale to adhere to that. They either do implement it or they fail, the target audience simply is too small otherwise.

That’s… a divine orb roll from PoE… exactly 1 to 1 taken over… nothing else :stuck_out_tongue:
The cost is just another version of the same item rather then a generic currency.

You cannot have both worlds here, it’s either/or, they’re mitially exclusive.

You either have a shit experience by getting screwed over along the way unless you’re extremely lucky… because you got so many individual things which all have to go right while also each one being a highly variable outcome that you’ll run into a time where it just goes against you in a major way and puts a stop-gap to any progression before it reasonably should.
Or you instead allow it to take time to counteract the variance there, needing to gradually build up to achieve something.

In both systems you can need the same time to achieve the same end-point… but it’s filled entirely different with what you experience during that time. One’s filled with individual massive heights and severe droughts in-between… the other lacks the massive heights but you’re not parched in-between either.

Gear in video games is described as the following:
A equippable (check), item (check) that enhances character’s attributes or abilities (check).

Jewels are gear in PoE. Who ever told you that you cannot use the passive tree for using gearing methods? That’s just some arbitrary limitation you came up with yourself out of nowhere.
Fine if you see it as such… but not even remotely close to the definition.

And what does that have to do with bypassing itemization progress? :rofl:

I mean, I get that you wanna return to the core differences of the itemization via the ‘one and done’ crafting methodology versus the ‘forever crafts’ methodology. But that came outta the left field.

But here goes:

Theoretically ‘yes’. Practically ‘no’. It’s a risk/reward based aspect. Taking a high risk gamble with a chance to reduce the value to the starting point is at time better then to take the safe route but having to re-do it dozens or hundreds of times.

It functionally has not really a difference as it upholds in both cases the general time limitation to achieve a result. Either through limitation of usage for materials or by keeping it fully inside the drop system.

The major aspect there is though that it’s a top-end system which acts as a RNG reductor, which adds another stage. Hence instead of ‘2 steps’ you now got ‘3 steps’ for example. You still have - for example - a total 1 in 6000 chance to achieve the same outcome… but in the 2-step system you need - for example - to do it with the RNG of 1 in 3000 for the drop and the 1 in 20 for the follow-up.
In the 3-step you only need the 1 in 60 for the drop, get a 1 in 5 for the materials and a 1 in 20 for the follow-up.
The end-result for both is each ‘1 in 6000’ but each segment is simply smaller with 3 steps.

It’s a rough example without any clear cut showcase, solely to represent the underlying system it follows. The measures in which those ‘steps’ are handled are of no matter, just that they exist.

Once more the same end-point though:
The chance for the acquisition of a fitting item which is usable ‘as is’ without any changes at all is atrocious in LE. It absolutely is not in PoE though, you just need to look at the value of items deemed by the community for what items are worth to see it.

For example:
A base item with a good potential to become ‘something good’ costs around 5 mil in LE, that’s uncrafted. A finished craft which is the top-end for that same base costs 200 mil though. Clearly a vast disparity, right?
Now Gold is a bit of a bad indicator but can still be used at least, it’s just messy when comparing it.

In PoE we got divines. A ‘decent item’ is usually between 2-10 divines of value. That’s a ‘as is’ item which is put on, the majority of end-game builds work on a budget between ~20 div up to endless. But most begin to ‘shine’ between 50-100 div budget total for everything.

This price-range is the equivalent of a Headhunter unique, which is a chase-unique, a top-end item, one of the most expensive ones in the game. It’s worth ‘a full build’. Hence why people say when you drop one you can finish your build to get done with everything.

The equivalent in LE is a red ring, it’s one of the rarest uniques existing, extreme power and when you sell it… you basically bypass all viable content progression with the reward from it.

Can we agree with it up to that point? It’s after all a rather apt comparison.

So… a red ring in LE costs between 500-800 mil in Legacy. We got 11 slots solely for your direct combat gear, without idols taken into consideration.
A finished crafted T7 + level chest piece costs around 200mil for the meta builds in Legacy.

That means best case we can afford 4 pieces of out 11 pieces of gear. Top-rolled class idols cost 100mil+ too by the way.

This is already an issue, to achieve either of both games you need to have experience in either itemization and/or trading to get to your goal after all, that’s beyond the majority of players always. So extra steps are commonly taken which causes the timeframe to become so large for the norm of a dedicated but not veteran player.

So, if we take it solely from the Headhunter/Red Ring perspective alone we can also establish another comparative baseline.
The average end-game player in LE is ~500c, that’s clearly end-game, Aberroth worthy.
For Path of Exile it’s T16 maps, farming em. Hence also the ability to deal with Maven already.
In neither case those boss-fights would be ‘comfortable’ or ‘easy’, but they’re definitely in the doable range for the respective players. So we have a baseline.

Since we would need a time comparison otherwise - which is a bit hard to establish, easier for PoE then LE actually though - I’ll go first with an example from the economic side, since that showcases it easier.

To farm up items at 500c we can expect a return of around 30-40 mil average per hour, without bad or good luck. There will be 1 or 2 idols with value in there… maybe a few exalted that are a good base/Affix combo, rolls-ranges and so on all included to make up that value.

In PoE you’ll get roughly 5 div/hour for a farming strat, most of them provide it, needing a little less knowledge base to achieve it but also not including any lucky drops there which will happen from time to time.

So, to achieve the 500 mil range a LE player needs a dedicated 12,5 hours of play-time for a red-ring.
For all 11 items it’s hence ~35 hours total playtime for a build. That’s massive.

In comparison a PoE player needs… 10 hours. End of the line, it’s 10 measly hours after core progression to reach the common ‘end-line’ of playing.

So already the itemization in LE is clearly more stringent then in PoE.
If we take it at a roughly 1 in 20 success rate of crafts this leads to the outcome of 100 mil per item anyway in value. Since bases cost around 5 mil.
Cutting the time down to around 17 hours of effort needed this way. Still 70% higher (while rounding down twice) then comparably in PoE.

Why does this happen?
Because LE got the same RNG methodology then PoE, their drop-limits are a lot lower though. The game is entirely based around crafting as a follow-up, it’s a integral mandated aspect of it.

How many items have you picked up and used ‘as is’ at 500c+? It happens in PoE still, rarely… around 5-10 hours of farming and actually picking up items to make it happen, but it does.
People just don’t do it since it’s fiddly and the focus solely on resources is more time-efficient. SSF though absolutely does exactly that for a reason, no economy.

So now that wouldn’t be a fully apt comparison though, after all ‘as is’ often is not viable, so we go a bit more lenient. Once again a comparison which is roughly equivalent.
A ‘finisher’ task is allowed!
In PoE that includes things like ‘I fill that empty Affix slot’ with a exalted, a conqueror orb or a bench-craft. Hence always a ‘one and done’ method. Exactly in your acceptable range.
Instead of ‘fiddling around’ with the crafting in any way.
So the baseline for a similar experience in LE would be Havoc or Redemption only. So solely a shifting of stuff… the last ‘polishing moves’.

Once again… how often has that happened in 500c+ for you?, for me it did exactly never, not a single time.

That’s a major problem now, is it? When the game you say is ‘focused on crafting’ provides you with more viable drops then the system which is supposed to be drop-centric primarily.

Hence the follow-up of the crafting system is also to be seen in a entirely different light. Crafting in PoE is used to bypass the drop RNG and hence repetitive picking up and sorting like it’s done in LE. That’s the goal for people there.
It’s not that they don’t have the option for it, it’s still viable, SSF successfully does it since ages and competes fairly well with people playing trade for finishing the content. It’s not like SSF people in PoE don’t finish the content, absolutely not! Heck… there’s even the ‘Gauntlet Event’ which should showcase just how far beyond any reasonable power level you can build without anyone helping you out. And since always the same people are at the top places to boot that also means it’s reliable. Otherwise we would see the leaderboard there completely different each time as it would be purely limited by RNG, but it isn’t. All’s been acquired personally, with miniscule amounts of crafting as that would stop people from actually progressing and hence making em fall down and not win, crafting is high RNG after all.

So please stop comparing it in that manner, it’s unfitting and not in any way realistic.
The core difference between both games is the needed knowledge base to achieve your goals. In LE you can shut off your brain and still go for top-end stuff as it’s as straightforward as can be. In PoE it’s simply knowing which things to do. It’s not that you’re enforced to craft for ages… it’s what people not only enjoy doing there but also what saves them substantial amount of tedium, which is why they do it.
The alternative is more reliable even in PoE then what the core aspect is supposed to be in LE.
Has been the case for years.

I never said that.
I said that it’s one of the core reason people state when leaving LE.
Besides ‘there’s nothing left to do’.

If it’s in the top reasons then you kinda got to think a bit about it.

‘Nothing left to do’ is after all addressed by you. So why are you ignoring the ‘I can’t find a way to progress my character further’ argument which follows right after even?

Sadly yeah, but it always de-rails.

People come out with the weirdest takes to try and dismantle arguments, so getting into it is sadly often needed to disprove things.

I mean… it’s kinda obvious in LE where the problems are and how to solve em, it’s not a intricate complex system after all when you compare it to the competition.

Yes, that’s what I’ve been telling you from the start. Neither is better or worse, they provide different experiences. And EHG wants you to feel the highs and the lows. They want you to go from “fk this st” to “F**K YEAH”, not spend the whole time feeling meh.

I know you like PoE’s crafting, but personally, the few times I tried to create a decent item myself (not even BiS, just decently good for endgame) I didn’t feel any joy when it finished. I only felt relief it was over.

Different players will enjoy one more than the other, but this is what EHG wants. The f this and the f yeah.

I guess blessings are gear as well, then.

Gear goes on a character. If it goes anywhere else, it’s not gear. Rogue-likes often have a choice of which enhancements you unlocked so far you can apply (or equip) to the new game. They enhance your abilities or attributes. They’re not gear.

Yeah… and I’ve been saying from the start that while both have a identical outcome potentially that one actually is better then the other.

It’s even scientifically proven.
Low peaks and low… well… lows tend to cause a significantly higher investment in something then significant peaks do. Actually one is causal with addiction even.
There’s both been studies on rats and on humans. The one from which it related from is the study of rats in a social environment with drugged versus clean water and a rat isolated with a dragged and a clean water. The rat which is isolated nearly always took the drugged water for stimulation and hence easily ODed while those in a social environment with playfields, other rats and so on avoided it like the pest, it was non-existent basically.

From there follow-up studies on addiction and addiction-adjacent behavior have formed, having found out that high dopamine releasing methods as well as generall ‘thrill-seeking’ are with a high chance either the symptom of a mental disability (ADHD primarily in that case, with some others following quite a bit after) or of a disrupted environment which causes needs to not be fulfilled.

Further follow-up studies have then been made in regards to sale methodology and also related to designing of entertainment (obviously for those, money does give a great incentive to fund studies after all) and it’s been found out that systems which are extremely prone to jackpots like gacha-games, outright gambling games or even competitive environments at times where high-stakes regularly happen tend to cause a extremely strong investment to it but comparatively to those providing a far lower ‘thrill-factor’ (I’ll call it that for now for the lack of another term) instead caused initially less investment but kept a substantially larger group of people engaged long-term around the respective product.

What you urge for is actively a detrimental form of a otherwise healthy methodology. The reduction of the peaks and lows both while upholding them (they have a reasoning as a dopamine creator after all) is overall something which has been proven to be better long-term for players. While those which inherently seek out those thrills for one reason or another cause often the most short-term engagement the stability comes from those which don’t.

That’s why games are ever more either leaning towards the short-term cash-grab of gachas and the likes, with a high turnover rate and always pushing the limits of what is acceptable even (they need to make the time it works count) while the counterside is removing that as much as possible. Games like Palworld for example follow this route where acquisition and progression is based on small-scale successes but those happening non-stop over a long long time to get everything together.
Other games use it nowadays in methods which only come to work in pulling people in initially before waning off as other methods of engagement take over, which is a viable strategy. Vampire Survivors is a great example by likely luck. Initially the chests provide a rush fo excitement as the flashy overdone animation and the RNG for the results provides you with outcomes that can make or break your run… but as you use the meta-progression it entirely goes to the back and isn’t having any impact.
Those showcasing the best result are the games which have gradually gone over to using it in a methodology which mostly focuses on vanity aspects for those types of mechanics, hence having no actual meaning, which detaches it from the thrill seeking and direct reward, playing more into the mindset of collectors.

But overall it’s generally a bad sign for the design if a dev tends to follow the functional thrill-seeking. It’s psychologically equivalent to gambling, this causes massive release of dopamine, such strong peaks cause a natural resistance to build up in the brain and hence needing ever more until ultimately over time people ‘crash out’ entirely after usually a large segment of sunken-cost fallacy based time.
Unless the more healthy usage this means during that time substantial amounts of frustration build up which even the thrill-seeking cannot overcome anymore, and this ultimately causes to stop engaging… but with a lasting effect of having a negative feeling towards the product whenever thinking about re-engaging with it.

That’s why it’s important to not have it in such a manner implemented. That’s why competitors use other methods nowadays even if they started out with the thrill-seeking methodology. We learned more, we adapted.
What you describe is only functional in a miniscule portion of the population - as I mentioned repeatedly - and hence is not feasable to uphold. It goes only well for ‘so long’ before it comes crashing down and change needs to happen or the product starts to fail. This has been showcased with a myriad of games over the course of time and only very few have avoided it.
Games like Runescape for example (OldSchool, not the new garbage one) which provides steady gradual upgrades and successes, all based upon steady effort rather then a simple single lucky hit. Those hits exist… but they’re a guaranteed outcome as time investment increases and the game is not built around ever needing to achieve a single one of those which are actually a ‘massive peak’. All the important ones are ‘low peaks’ only.
Sets for specific skills need a bit of luck but are achievable in a roughly fixed timeframe, pets are not. Extremely rare outcomes of the treasure seeking (3rd age equipment) is functionally identical to the early mid-game achieved ‘dragon gear’ and so on and so forth.

I mean… they’re itemized, so kinda? Positioned more like a passive though.
Rather a sorta skill, which upholds the same but simply is not itemized.