The Crafting Problem

Feedback and Suggestions
1

It doesn’t matter how much you tweak glyphs and runes, until forging potential RNG has been fixed, crafting has one major issue. And I think I’ve mentioned this a few years ago, but here I want to emphasis the issue again in hopes the developers will see to reason.

The problem is two fold;

  • (Lesser) Glyph of Hope needs removing or reworking to something more niche (like other glyphs) as they share the same problem as FP costs.
  • (Major) The forging potential cost should not range from ranges such as 1-20. But rather 3-5 (as an example). This is so you can see an item and predict roughly how many crafts you can get.

Glyphs of Hope feed too much into the RNG nature of crafting. These Glyphs don’t actually add any functionality to the crafting system.
It’s just a silly design in practise when you consider the game doesn’t actually need Glyphs of Hope. You could have just reduced the FP costs by 25% and you’d have a similar result. That’s the same as making a solution to a problem you created.

As for FP, I cannot stress enough that the whole point of Forging Potential is to give the player an indication of how many crafts an item has. That’s useless if you can’t predict the number of crafts. You may as well just remove the number entirely. I cannot tell you the number of items I’ve had a decent base, only for it to be bricked with double 24 FP crafts.

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2

You do know. The cost gets rerolled twice and generates an average (I calculated this in some other thread but I can’t be bothered to search for it or calculate it again. I think it was around 6 or something) that will be spent. It’s no different from 3-5. You’ll still calculate the average to figure out how many you can hit.
The only change is in the minimum number of crafts achievable.

And if you make crafting easier, then loot drops will have to be nerfed, otherwise there’s no challenge. It’s already reasonably easy to get good gear as it is once you reach endgame, especially with Havocs.

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Then how do I get -20 crafts? I’m sorry but what you say is a load of bollocks. Sure the game may have an average, but what good is that to the user?

EDIT: And why would loot need to be nerfed? Surely you meant buffed right? And even then that’s simply not true. Especially if what you said is true, your own second statement contradicts the first.

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4

That’s how averages work. You’ll get many more -1 than -20. But, because that’s how human minds work, you’ll remember the -20s much more than you will remember the -1s (or the free ones from either the glyph or a critical success).

If you know that crafting an affix will consume 6 FP on average, you’ll know that you can do 8 crafts on average on a 48 FP item. Sure, you can get unlucky and brick it in 2. But you can also get lucky and do 50 crafts. That won’t change with a smaller range.

No, I mean nerfed. Right now LE is balanced with the current drop rate and the current fail rate of crafts. You drop a lot and you brick a lot.
If you now brick less, then you also need to drop less to maintain the same balance. Otherwise it’s just power creep.

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So there should be no problem adjusting the numbers to be more user friendly.

6

What you’re proposing isn’t just making them user friendly. It’s just power creep. Because now you can have more guaranteed crafts. Meaning you brick less, especially when you consider that triple exalt drops aren’t that uncommon anymore, so you don’t even need to do that many crafts anymore.

Again, if you brick less, then you also need to drop less. Which doesn’t change your regular crafts but makes getting that specific base with that specific affix harder to get. It will be easier to craft on once you do, though, I’ll give you that.

EDIT: LE’s whole crafting system is a drop base system. It’s meant to be so you drop tons of items to craft on and you’ll brick most of them. Something drops, you try to craft on it, fail, dump it on the ground and move on until the next one.
So making changes to that base system requires changes to drops as well, since both are balanced together.

You might not like it, but it’s clearly what the devs want and what many players also like.
I’d hate for LE’s crafting system to turn into PoE’s “craft forever” system, for example.

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7

So you can’t predict the number of crafts you’re going to get. Therefor your whole argument of averages is meaningless from the user’s perspective.

EDIT: And don’t talk about powercreep like it’s a sin when EHG have and are still willfully adding more and better skills/items to the game. Do I even need to mention the Weaver idols? I bet if I suggested the ability to reroll idols you’d have the same argument lined up; “but powercreep”. Yet EHG are doing just that. Are you complaining about that?
What about the LP1 choice functionality they added? I bet If I suggested that you’d be “nay!”.

Point is, you’re being a bit contrarian here, and needlessly so.

8

What ur saying here doesnt line uo with what happens in game.

Theres plenty of times iv had a craft cost me 25fp highest i seen was 30fp. Gylph of hope was used as well. Always is when i craft

U may want to check the formula on this again cuz it doesnt line up with what happens in the game

With how the FP system is set up there is no way u can tell how many crafts u can do on an item. FP cost is all pure RNG

For example. The one where i lost 30fp was an exalted item with i think it was 60fp. I was able to craft another 2 times on it.

Next one i got with high fp. I was able to craft a total of 8 times including sealing an affixs.

Its pretty much impossible to know how many ctafts ur going to beable to do with how the system is set up

9

You can predict the average number of crafts you’ll get, which is as close as you can get with either system.
The only change from 1-24 (assuming an average of 6, which I’m not sure of, but I’ll use for the example) and a 5-7 is:
-In the first you know you’ll have 2 minimum crafts, 8 crafts on average and potentially infinite (with glyph and critical successes) crafts.
-In the second you know you’ll have 6 minumum crafts, 8 crafts on average and potentially infinite crafts.

So the only thing that changed is the minimum number of crafts.

Idols are still the worst item to get with the affixes you want. The change they made won’t change that either. Just like getting your class idol with the 2 affixes you wanted was a painful process, so was enchanting them when you had 1-2 tries per tomb. Got to the point where I simply gave up on that.
If we now get 1-2 tries to reroll an idol and it does the same thing as having one drop, that will do nothing to fix the issue.

It’s easier to get your 2LP+ legendary slammed with double exalts than it is to get your perfect idol. Even more so with enchantments.

So no, that’s not power creep. That’s actually just making sure that idols aren’t a slot machine.

I still say ‘nay’. It was bad for the game.
At this point I’m agreeing with Macknum that EHG is just going down the D3 rabbit hole and pretty soon we’ll be doing trillions of damage (or infinite damage like in D4).

Since I don’t think that’s a good thing for the game, I’ll continue to argue against it.

No, I’m just trying to keep the game I love in a way where I can continue to love it and not be forced to leave it (or play it for a week every year like D3).

It does. If the value gets rerolled twice, that means that a -1 will happen more often than a -24 (or -30 or whatever the bottom is). But perception bias means we just notice the cases where it failed and we pay no attention to those items where we did 20+ crafts successfully.

You can, on average. The same way you can with a 5-7 roll. All that changes is the minimum number of crafts you can make.

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10

We’re all entitled to our opinions I guess. I think you’re wrong as I’ve explained above. So let’s just leave it at that.

11

That is not a problem, I can’t disagree more.

I absolutely hate systems that are too predictable. The variance is what makes it exciting, when you do succeed a craft.

The only thing I hate about crafting is Glyph of Chaos Crits can increase skill levels. I think when using Glyph of Chaos specifically a crit should only guaranteed no FP cost and that’s it… or at least make it so that a crit can never increase the affix yo uare currently crafting any only other affixes on the item. I don’t know how many times I was so freakin’ annoying by the affix I wanted to reroll getting pumped up another tier so I had one less chance of saving an otherwise really good item.

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Except it’s not just an opinion. I’ve shown you the numbers. The only thing that changes between the current system and the one you’re proposing is the minimum number of guaranteed crafts. That’s indisputable.
With both systems you’ll get the same number of average crafts, the same potentially infinite number, except with one you might get unlucky and only get 2 whereas the other will always get at least 7.

That and glyph of insight, which is even worse. Because if it critically hits, you’ll likely not be able to seal it anymore. It’s the time when getting a success is actually bad for you.

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13

You can’t really complain about the unpredictability of crafting, while telling me you love the unpredictability of crafting. Look I’m not suggesting to make crafting a “You always get 8 crafts” I’m suggesting a change so it’s you may get “6-9”; there’s still unpredictability in that because you’ve still got the crits (which can be both good and bad).

Crafting is suppose to be predictable to a minimum extent, that’s kind of the point of crafting. Otherwise it’s just another form of looting, which I don’t know about you, but there’s enough of that already.

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14

Wait are u saying it rolls this twice and uses the lowest roll as the cost to the craft?

If so thats not an average.

Iv done some digging on this. The game doesnt average out the two rolls it rolls the cost twice and takes the lowest of the two

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Yes. And that generates an average. 1-20 on average would be 10.5, with 2 rolls it’s somewhere in the 6 or 7 range on average.

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I will just mention that averages don’t mean jack on a micro scale. But you’re seeing the numbers from a macro scale, which doesn’t work because most players don’t play that much to be able to get a macro scale reading.

Hence why your opinion is an opinion.

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17

No the game doesnt generate an average.

Im confused on what ur saying here cuz u keep using the word average.

The game rolls this twice and pick the lowest roll and uses that for the cost. There is no average of the two rolls at all

The 6-7 are u refering to thag being the average amount of crafts u can do on an item?

18

The two things are vastly different. Because one makes the number of crafts unpredictable, the other makes the actul result of an individual craft unpredictable in a negative way.

Having knowledge about all the different methods and components and using them properly can be very rewarding, regardless fo how lucky or unlcuyk you are with the FP.
I don’t care about FP cost being unpredictable, again I like that.

But when I drop an Item, which I see has potential to become great. I already plan out what I want to do ahead of time. Then I’ll execute it and while I am doing it I get excited when things unfold as I planned them and when I reach the endresult.

If I run out of fuel midway through, that is fine, salvage that item (either as Legendary Slam Material, or removal/shatter.
But if a craft crits and adds a level to an affix that I didn’t want to, that is like you have no control over the steering wheel anymore, because the actual result of the craft is not predictable anymore.

19

Forgive me but from where I’m standing, the two aren’t so different. You’re critiquing my critique of the unpredictable nature of crafting while also critiquing the unpredictable nature of crafting…

Forging Potential doesn’t serve it’s intended purpose. Giving a rough estimate of THAT item’s potential. That’s the whole problem with FP and I’ve said it for years.

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20

Then why aren’t you asking for all uniques to be changed as well? Almost all of them roll something like 20-90. You can have a nihilis drop and it’s crap, even with +2 skills, because all ranges are negative.

LE’s philosophy is “Here, get lots and lots of drops. Most will suck or will brick, but you’re done with them fast and can keep playing the game”.
Making crafts or unique affix ranges more predictable means that you can’t get the same drop shower anymore.

And yes, you can brick items with 2 crafts. But you can also do 20+ crafts on one and get a near perfect item.

The game doesn’t calculate an average. The game produces an average.
Much like rolling one die won’t roll an average. But it will produce one (3.5).

What I mean is that the sum total of your crafts will average to 6-7. 6-7FP is the most common result from this formula. It will happen more than any other number.

Much like if you roll only once a d6 any number can come up (although the average of the total rolled numbers will be 3.5), but if you roll 2d6 instead the most common number will be 7. You will get 7 more than any other number.

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