The Case against a Trade Economy

[miffy]

@Mintfoxx

For example let’s say you setup a 24hours auction for your item. Instead of it lasting exactly 24 hours it will last between 23,5 and 24,5 hours. And the clock in the bazaar when the auction has 10 minutes remaining would show: “less than thirty minutes remaining”. This would make sniping pretty much impossible and incentive people to bid higher and sooner if they want the item.
To make it less frustrating they could also allow players to setup an “auto-bid up to a certain value”, so players doesn’t have to keep checking the auctions they are participating, just make a bid, setup an auto-bid for as much you are wiling to pay and that’s it. If you lose, you know that you wouldn’t had the money to win anyway.

I agree this would be a good way to make a bid system less frustrating, most MMOs with bid systems function this way. Bidding still remains a very uncertain and inconvenient way of trading, though. While it would be very effective in keeping the power of Trade in check, it would also make it kind of an unreliable non-factor in progression, which again begs the question of why you’d have it at all, then.

This just goes back into why Trade is so hard to balance in an ARPG. It’s hard to compare to MMOs with full-fledged economies, because economies fulfill more functions there than just gear upgrades (mats, professions, cosmetics, pets, mounts etc) and currency has sinks in other aspects of the game. In ARPGs the entire game is only about loot-hunting and progressing, so Trade will always sit on the fence between irrelevant (because too inconvenient/unreliable) and too efficient/powerful (because farming currency is more efficient than waiting for specific drops/access is too easy).

@Albinosaurus

The problem with some of these suggestions–outside of what Llama pointed out with regard to being strictly hypothetical–is that they generally think of trade within the current context of the game. Loot has a long way to go before trade will matter, because there is very little that is worth trading for right now, and most of that is stuff people agree shouldn’t be tradeable.

They need to fix loot first.

I’m totally down to discuss the merits and flaws with trade and trade economies, but there really isn’t a purpose for it in the game’s current state. That is to say, whether they include trade or not, if the game released like this today (assuming it even had multiplayer), it would see a huge wave of interest at first and then peter out fairly quickly–don’t know how quickly for sure, but I’d be surprised if it was more than a few months. This because of the current state of items/loot. It doesn’t offer enough for the long-term.

Therefore, I think it’s prudent to assume they will fix itemization/loot, and discussion about trade should be about trade or economic principles as it relates to the game without being completely specific to the game (because we don’t know how that is going to look yet).

I’m very curious why you think loot is in such a bad state, or rather what you think is missing. I don’t think the current structure is going to change drastically until release. Sure Legendaries are coming, however those turn out, and i’m sure more unique items and probably more bases and mods, but other than that I don’t feel there’s a lot missing.

Your notion of “fixing” loot sounds like you want way more diversity and more stuff dropping, (maybe comparing to current PoE?), but if you recall early PoE had very similar loot variety and density, and more mechanics added more as time went by.

As I don’t think loot is going to change in any dramatic way before release, I think it’s entirely viable to discuss the ramifications of Trade, as it functions well in SSF right now.

@Shrukn

Theres no point to having trading at all when theres no reason for gold or more importantly nothing to base any values on, people only sold items for extreme amounts in D3 as they wanted to resell the gold for rl currency and it capped at 2billion

I would expect, if Trade is implemented, that Crafting would cost gold for example to create some natural sinks. This would also maybe be a way to allow for better chances on high Tier crafting - just make them cost quite a lot of gold, so you then have an organic gold sink that also makes you think twice: do I want to spend it on a good chance to improve an item, or do I want to buy something from the marketplace.

[Albinosaurus]

@miffy

Your notion of “fixing” loot sounds like you want way more diversity and more stuff dropping, (maybe comparing to current PoE?), but if you recall early PoE had very similar loot variety and density, and more mechanics added more as time went by.

True, I would like to see a lot more variety of things to loot and that have some value beyond “Does it increase my stats?” I don’t expect it to go full hard PoE style of “so much crap I can’t care about most of it,” but I disagree that it has similar variety as old PoE did. At a fundamental level, PoE had way more stuff to trade than just equipment. It had materia skill gems, crafting orbs (currency), regret orbs (as an example of functional but not equippable), maps, etc. By contrast, LE has equipment and shards. That’s it.

@miffy

This just goes back into why Trade is so hard to balance in an ARPG. It’s hard to compare to MMOs with full-fledged economies, because economies fulfill more functions there than just gear upgrades (mats, professions, cosmetics, pets, mounts etc) and currency has sinks in other aspects of the game. In ARPGs the entire game is only about loot-hunting and progressing, so Trade will always sit on the fence between irrelevant (because too inconvenient/unreliable) and too efficient/powerful (because farming currency is more efficient than waiting for specific drops/access is too easy).

I largely agree with this, and is a sizeable portion of why I think loot needs to be more varied/interesting before trade can be a real consideration for the game. However, you pointed out in the differences between typical ARPGs and MMOs how ARPGs can make trade better, so that might be worth exploring more.

[Shrukn]

@miffy

I would expect, if Trade is implemented, that Crafting would cost gold for example to create some natural sinks.

I dont, infact thats awful design

[miffy]

@Albinosaurus

At a fundamental level, PoE had way more stuff to trade than just equipment. It had materia skill gems, crafting orbs (currency), regret orbs (as an example of functional but not equippable), maps, etc. By contrast, LE has equipment and shards. That’s it.

This is also because the things you mention are part of PoE’s vastly different skill system, though, and different crafting functionality. It’s not very directly comparable, imo, due to many of the drops in PoE serving purposes that are not required or dealt with differently in LE.

@Shrukn

I dont, infact thats awful design

I did say expect, not would want. It just would logically follow that if a marketplace/AH/bazaar existed, there would be a need for more gold sinks besides just buying inventory space and gambling, and there aren’t many options for applying gold value outside of crafting. In fact, I can’t think of any others off the top of my head.

[Albinosaurus]

Yep, and you can see why I don’t think this game is ready for trade yet, nor will be without substantial additions and/or overhauls.

[miffy]

Well my argument would be that I don’t think it will ever need Trade, because unless the current structure is drastically altered - and I don’t expect that at all for 1.0 - it would run into all the issues discussed at length above.

[jehzir]

Let’s just see what EHG proposes with the bazaar. As someone who has experience in game development, whatever system is designed some will be thrilled, some will be meh, some will be irrate. Those are the only guarantees in gaming.

[miffy]

Well, sure. You can’t ever please everyone. And i will play it whatever may come.

This thread was more to simply discuss, from a design point of view, how Trade would fit into the current iteration of LE at all, and the potential risks it brings. I think most agree that the game would have to change quite a bit for Trade to feel good and not be either irrelevant or a detriment to the core gameplay loop. And I just don’t see the make-up of the game changing in any significant way before 1.0. More of everything that exists currently, yes, but no drastic deviations from the currently working formula.

[Shrukn]

Gold needs to be removed, not really sure why an immortal spirit trapped in the end of time wants money. I know its a relic from beta but EHG need a plan moving forward if they are serious about trade

I never traded once in Grim Dawn in 2000 hours, no idea what the tradescreen looks like, im guessing people just traded item > item as gold again fairly useless in that game

I trade all the time for things I ‘need’ in PoE and it gets to the point I just sell usually - but so so many things have value there

The fundamental question to me is “what value can you place on gear/items” because right now for example I want Exalted weapons with stats I want, theres no amount of Money that can pay for an exalted weapon since I cant gamble it and I dont need shards. The only reasonable response is to trade gear for gear which isnt even an economy at that point as its all eye of the beholder stuff and that requires 3rd party tools basically or you ‘post your item’ on some bazaar and have to negotiate with randoms and interacting with others is the worst part of any trade system

[jehzir]

These are the exact points I have been stating. EHG needs to declare what are items and what are currencies. The auto-pickup feature in most cases is reserved for what is considered currency. Items are pick by definition a barter item. An economy can be barter and/or trade. Where some of the item exchanges are of relevant value. Currency swaps such as 5:1 or gold:1 depending on how they make it up.

@Shrukn

Gold needs to be removed, not really sure why an immortal spirit trapped in the end of time wants money.

Its not enemy but us fickle fleshly bags of mostly water that uses the currency as a means of simplifying value.

[miffy]

Well, this question of assigning value is exactly where gold, being the only currency right now, would need more sinks for it. This would organically lead to a market arriving at a rough value. Let’s say (figures are purely for example), a T4-T5 craft costs 50k gold (either by default or for a higher chance at success than not spending gold), so the market for a an item with 3-4 T5 that synergize would likely hover in the x5-x10 range of 250-500k. Because you’d pay a premium on circumventing the risk, but wouldn’t spend that much more if you had a semi-realistic chance of succeeding yourself.

Gambling certainly wouldn’t work as a sufficient gold sink, there would have to be some organic gold value in relation to mods for the market not to just be utterly pointless (ridiculous inflation of gold prices bc there’s no real use for it otherwise, and you can only use the gold on a sale to spend it on another massively inflated item, so many wouldn’t bother selling at all, likely).

[jehzir]

Man you need to review the gambling. I know players sinking 10M+ into finding that one item. The base gamble values are skewed but a floor for the perceived value, you win some lose a lot.

[Albinosaurus]

@Shrukn

Gold needs to be removed, not really sure why an immortal spirit trapped in the end of time wants money. I know its a relic from beta but EHG need a plan moving forward if they are serious about trade

I don’t know about this, because I think it can still have a place in the game. I just don’t see it having much place in trade. I agree with a good portion of the rest of your post though.

[miffy]

The problem is that gambling would become a side show if the item in question is tradeable. Gambling could still serve as a sink for specific items that can’t be traded, but can be gambled, for sure. But it wouldn’t be enough of a sink imo.

[jehzir]

This perception is based on risk tolerance and mitigation. Alter the risk it changes the outcome of the value.

[Shrukn]

@jehzir

Its not enemy but us fickle fleshly bags of mostly water that uses the currency as a means of simplifying value.

But again how do you quantify value, Gold has only 2 uses now - to gamble sub optimal gear and buy shattering shards. Dont need gold to reroll monoliths anymore which I spent a lot on overall. Gylphs drop frequently

If you are buying gear off a player the gambler has exhausted its use so if I sold an item even getting 21million gold means nothing

@Albinosaurus

I don’t know about this, because I think it can still have a place in the game.

This is a game with story about time travelling - its ludicrous to think a ‘gold piece’ would have the same value for 12,000 years, its just lazy design aRPGs never got out of except for PoE which showed how it should be done

I want a T7 Sovnya Melee Phys with 7% crit implicit…what is this worth to you? 1m, 10m, 100m? does it matter at that point?

[Albinosaurus]

@jehzir

Man you need to review the gambling. I know players sinking 10M+ into finding that one item. The base gamble values are skewed but a floor for the perceived value, you win some lose a lot.

It’s precisely because of this that I don’t bother with it unless I’m just trying to get a decent base with a t3/4 roll or two. No point sinking it all into something with little (and sometimes no) payout.

[miffy]

@Shrukn

This is a game with story about time travelling - its ludicrous to think a ‘gold piece’ would have the same value for 12,000 years, its just lazy design aRPGs never got out of except for PoE which showed how it should be done

So your main gripe is the lore? I’d put that aside and just consider the basic mechanics at play. If you’re not doing a barter economy, you have a common base value currency.

[jehzir]

EHG the marketplace setters (governments in our case) do the ground work. Gold maybe nothing to you, but others its priceless. Which is why I was stating an altered barter style for items and gold for currency

[Shrukn]

Hah no, but thats just another point to show gold has no afterthought with every aRPG created and just ‘tagged in’ for sake of it

@jehzir

EHG the marketplace setters (governments in our case) do the ground work. Gold maybe nothing to you, but others its priceless. Which is why I was stating an altered barter style for items and gold for currency

EHG wont do anything, it will be player driven. Theres conspiracies about PoE but GGG dont get involved directly…more indirectly by nerfs/removals. See Hateforge for example