The rework of permanent bond has made it so builds built around a maximum number of wolves can’t use this node anymore if they use Tyrant’s Skull. That’s an unfortunate nerf if it wasn’t intended. One way to have our cake and it too would be to enable the new behaviour unless Safety in Numbers is taken (or the claw or the fang is equipped). That way we could have one extra companion for builds using one wolf and for builds using wolves/squirrels and a T-Rex.
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This is a very weird “limitation”:
I can still somewhat get 2 wolves and the T-rex (and in my case also a bear), but I would need to do the following every time I login:
A. remove the Tyrant’s Skull helmet (meaning I have no minions at this point)
B. Summon my 2 wolves
C. Now can summon other companions/minions (i.e., put back Tyrant’s Skull)
D. Since removing/restoring Tyrant’s Skull respeced my +3 minion skills I can now respec other minion skills (i.e., bear), but not wolf as if I allocate wolf skills points it will de-summon my second wolf.
I am not saying this a workaround/solution, only that it’s weird that it doesn’t actually limit you, just makes it very inconvenient.
EDIT: Additionally, as @DJSamhein pointed out below this is a problem if one of the wolves dies during combat.
BTW I had no issue with permanent bond pre-1.3.1. When I logged in and clicked on summon wolf I would get both wolves (I think I only needed to press it once, but not sure, in any case within a few seconds I would have 2 wolves, a bear and the T-rex). From this point on, pressing the summon wolf skill would always howl (or at least make a howling sound).
What was the issue with the pre-1.3.1 permanent bond behavior?
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The problem is that this only works for when you’re not in combat. If one wolf dies mid-fight, you have no way to resummon it.
The extra wolf was counting as a companion for the Anurok helmet, so it would summon one less frog.
Thanks, I didn’t think of that (no wolf has died for me in the little I played since the patch).
I see. Still, if they don’t want the extra wolf to count towards your companion limit (as it currently says in-game) then it simply shouldn’t, hence not effecting the frog count. And if it should count towards companion limit, but you want to have an extra frog instead of the extra wolf why have permanent bond specced at all? (or in other words won’t despecing it solve the problem?)
Also, if I understand correctly, in the current state I can’t have two wolves with the frog helmet (don’t have the helmet yet, so can’t test it myself).
Apparently I didn’t test this properly, lazing out on allocating the additional +3 points to the summon wolf skill for the zillionth time (the ones from re-equiping tyrant skull). When I allocate a point to wolf, my second wolf disappears. I edited the above post to reflect this.
At least for me, it’s down to one wolf for now (respecing the permanent bond elsewhere).
I expect that this is because the extra wolf is still coded as a companion, meaning it will howl and if downed it will have a revived period. It’s not a simple minion.
But yes, EHG should fix it so that it really doesn’t count for the total, which apparently it is. Either that, or simply increase it.
Because you only want a wolf so it will keep howling and buffing your frogs. Which you can have proc automatically. If you had this node, then you would have a single wolf running around, because you wouldn’t summon your “real” wolf. And you’d have full companion slots filled with frogs.
Both before this patch and now, you can have 2 wolves. You just need to summon them without having other minions and then the helmet will summon frogs to fill the rest of the companion slots.
This means that the frog build is now “fixed”. You can have you lone wolf that doesn’t count as a companion and he will auto-howl for buffs.
It’s the regular wolf builds that are now in a bad spot. Because if you use the catalyst that gives you a minion (it has good minion stats, after all) or the t-rex relic, now you can’t resummon your dead wolves.
So they fixed one issue and created a new one.
So the first wolf you summon doesn’t count towards your companion limit now (if you have permanent bond)?
On a side note, at the end when respeccing my wolf skill I managed to get Safety in Numbers, so now I actually have 3 wolves. Still, would be nice if we could have this + permanent bond for an additional wolf, exactly as the OP mentions.
Actaully the real problem it is this bit “the Summon Wolf ability will now always be replaced with Howl while at least one Wolf and one other non-Wolf minion are summoned.”
It should actaully be summon wolf replaced with howl when at wolf or companion limit and with at lest 1 wolf out.
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Since the update Permanent Bond is acting really bizarre.
I was leveling a Beast master when the update came in. Prior to to update, I had PB specced and would always get 2 wolves when I hit the summons at startup (I did NOT have Safety in Numbers.)
When I got Beast master activated, I added Raptor and I would get 2 wolves and my Raptor.
Then the update happened. I could only get one wolf and one raptor.
I specced into Safety in Numbers (as I also got the passive node +1 companion) and still only would get 1 wolf and 1 raptor.
I despecced PB and lo and behold I now get my multiple wolves and 1 raptor.
If I respec PB again I can only get 1 wolf period. Even with Safety in Numbers and the nodes for +1 companion.
You don’t summon him. That is the thing. With the node, you log in and immediately have your wolf. There’s no need to summon any other.
Without the node you start with 0 wolves and you summon 1. With the node you start with 1 and don’t summon any. Which works fine because you get the frogs and you get the howl ability.
The issue is with every build that actually uses wolves with other minions/companions.
That is how it worked before. If you didn’t have all your wolves out, it would stay as summon wolf. Once you had all wolves, it would switch to Howl. If a wolf died, it would go back to summon wolf.
It honestly seems like EHG tried to fix an issue and created a bunch more.
The solution seems simple:
Permanent bond shouldn’t count as a companion, either for the frog helmet or for multi-companion builds.
Summon wolf should go back to how it was. It was working properly. The only issue was permanent bond summoning one less frog.
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Yep, permanent bond is no longer one extra wolf, it’s now one extra frog.
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The way I understand it, is that you only want the permanent bond wolf which doesn’t count towards your companion limit and zero “normal” wolves. This will result in one extra frog. At least for me it is very confusion to say that the permanent bond wolf is now a frog.
Node has just always been a problem and they have been trying to rework/make it not what it is for years lol.
its intended design has always been “you always get a wolf friend” before it gave you +1 companion, and let you summon an extra wolf, so for example if you had 3 companion slots, you could do raptor/bear/sabertooth and this node let you summon a wolf as well or if you did bear/scorpion/wolf, with 3 limit, it would let you summon 2 wolves without having to take “wolves up to companion limit”
I dont think it was ever meant to be used in a wolf hoard build stacking as many wolves as possible, the +1 companion limit on it was always intended to be local, and just so happened to be used all kinds of janky for crow builds and other stuff so they reworked it.
Again, I dont think its supposed to be clicked when you plan to use wolves as a main focus of your build with pack hunters. its for builds like the one im playing where I have filled my companion slots, but now may also get a wolf for “free”
sometimes I wish they did some design blogs about why they change things and the intention behind the changes more.
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Sorry if I confused you, I was being sarcastic…
Thanks for the explanation, but I’m not sure I get the logic… It gives you an extra wolf friend, unless you’ve already got at least two? Also I don’t think it’s a bad thing in general if mechanics are used in a way they were not originally intended for, as long as they’re consistent.
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Why wouldn’t you? That’s the weirdest take. An extra wolf is good, unless you already have wolves, then it’s bad.
I agree that it’s not supposed to give you extra crows/raptors, but why would you want fewer wolves if wolves are your main dps focus?
Well yeah when it works like it did, it didnt make any sense to not pick it, if thats the case why not combine it with pack hunters completely if thats its design space, makes sense, pack hunters gives an extra member to the pack.
its design space is as an extra bonus to those not using wolves as we can see with the rework.
Dont you find it odd that its on the opposite end as the pack hunters?
I dunno, its one of those things where players are just going to grumble because its less power rather then thinking about the design space behind them.
its like the rive third hit damage bonus being tied to 1,2,1,2 node, its a divergent design that you will grumble about if all your doing is going “third hit more better” and clicking any node that gives that.
But if you actually take the time to consider possible design elements it makes total sense. The wolf in question also now works without having wolf on the bar, where as atleast for me, it didnt. So now in a zoo build you can free up a slot from wolves on your bar, you get your extra wolf all the time, and its howl can proc itself.
It’s designed to help players running other minions, fine, but why not give the players running a wolf pack the freedom to take it if they want to? The fact that it’s on the other end means that if you want to take it, you have to take points in nodes leading to it that you otherwise might have skipped. It’s an investment, to me it looks like balance.
It’s supposed to give you an extra wolf outside of your companion limit, but currently if you have safety in numbers it doesn’t do that. I think it’s an implementation issue, I don’t think the recent change was meant to disallow this node for wolf packs. I can’t think of nodes that are exclusive to each other elsewhere in other skills except damage type conversions.
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this i agree with, I think the idea behind the node is to be for non wolf pack builds, but they dont want it to not work with wolf pack, they just cant seem to figure it out so they seemed to have focused on making it work for a core subset of builds its sorta made for.
If that node was the only way to get all the wolves I’d see where you’re coming from, but given you can get it from an amulet as well, that design space clearly isn’t vital. But I’m sure you actually took the time to consider that. And as MrElk said, the location of the two nodes just means that they “clearly” want to make you invest in having lots of wolves if you want lots of wolves.
Yeah, that’s what this change feels like. All/most other exclusive nodes state in the text that they’re exclusive. In no way does the text of Permanent Bond say or even imply that it won’t work if you take Safety in Numbers & other companions.
That is the effect it’s had, certainly, but all the devs have ever mentioned (as far as I’m aware) regarding this node is that they didn’t like that Summon Wolf was taken for that node by anyone who wanted more other companions which isn’t the same as “we don’t like too many wolves for reasons”.
That’s an assumption unless they’ve said anything along those lines. And as they have very handily shown over the past few years, bugs & unintended consequences happen.
That’s looking at it backwards, assuming it’s only supposed to be for a specific set of builds & working from there.