Stop changing offline experience

[DJSamhein]

@oldschooldiablo

What im saying is i think EHG should lean into this and make seasons available to all which imo would make LE even EHG stand out from the top dogs that lock content behind seasons. It would be imo in there best interest to let players play in thier prefered game mode without needing to play in a mode they dont want to play in just for content

There are already lots of discussions about this, but the main issue is that without some type of FOMO content, you stop having such high peaks and have a lower retention rate.
If the content that is coming next season isn’t going away and it’s the same for everyone, then I don’t have to rush day 1 to play it.

It’s like GD. When the expansion finally comes out, I will likely not buy it immediately and will instead wait for it to come on sale.
Even when I do buy it, I don’t feel the need to play it immediately. Maybe I’ll wait until I’m on vacation to dedicate a few days to it. The content isn’t going anywhere, so what’s the rush?
Much like I do return regularly to GD (and D2). Every once a year or two years for a few weeks.

And while this is absolutely fine for an offline single player game, it’s actually bad for an online live service game that has to keep servers running.

So yes, keeping the current system will still bring some players like you back every single season.
But it will also cause many players like me to skip seasons entirely because the content isn’t going anywhere.

Is that good or bad? For players you can make the case that it’s a good thing. For EHG’s income, though, it’s not.

On the other hand, having some sort of season exclusive content will still bring players back. And as long as they always release the same content into legacy when the season is over (rather than throwing it out like D4 or diluting it like PoE) perpetual players will also be happy.

[ExSea]

@DJSamhein

There are already lots of discussions about this, but the main issue is that without some type of FOMO content, you stop having such high peaks and have a lower retention rate.

i think this angle, tho a valid concern goes into a realm of assumptions.

the fact is there are no numbers to correlate sales with player retention/seasonal content etc.

and even if there are sales numbers, theres no indication WHY people spent money during that time.

it is logical to assume that more players playing = more chance things are being purchased, but until theres concrete evidence, all that is just assumptions.

i’ve whaled a lot in POE, sometimes i buy stuff on impulse to support the company, sometimes i buy stuff coz they look cool. sometimes i do play in seasons but i only buy the seasonal supporter pack mid/end league. sometimes i buy supporter packs on announcement even tho i have no interest in the league.

i am but one small data point. but i can confidently say, that the “retention/money” angle is guesstimates at best.

while i can say that gating seasonal content behind reset realms is without doubt making a worse experience for permanent realm players.

one is assumption one is fact.

[oldschooldiablo]

What im saying is once ehg does seasonal specific content thats if they go this route as i. Poe or even diablo. That content is available to all. And not locked behind having to play a mode one doesnt want to just to experience the content.

Thats what many people that bring this up want. A game that does this differently than the two top dogs in the arpg seasonal space. What ur saying can be achieved by making this content temporary or like poe does. It may go core it may not. But instead one doesnt have to play in season mode to do so or wait 4 months to see if it goes core.

[DJSamhein]

@ExSea

the fact is there are no numbers to correlate sales with player retention/seasonal content etc.

There is, though. There are studies that show that in these models the majority of MTX sales happen in the first week, tapering off into the second and after 1 month they’re just a small portion of the income.
This is why PoE always does an MTX sale in week 2.

There are also studies that show that only a small percentage of players actually spend money on MTX.
So higher peaks = more players = higher percentage of paying ones = more income.

I don’t know if any of the studios ever said anything about this. I know Blizzard didn’t, which is on brand since they don’t even let us know player numbers unless it’s convenient to them.
I don’t think GGG did, but I don’t follow them as closely, so I might have missed that.

@ExSea

while i can say that gating seasonal content behind reset realms is without doubt making a worse experience for permanent realm players.

That will depend on many factors, including the player himself.

You yourself admitted that you had no issues with playing standard in PoE until they starting cutting things out that you wanted to have in standard. If they had kept on always adding the items into core you wouldn’t have an issue and would have kept playing standard happily.

And that is because there are 2 types of seasonal gating. One is what D4 does where everything gets deleted. Another is what PoE was supposed to always do, which was to release seasonal stuff into standard at the end of the league.

The problem is PoE not doing this reliably and usually watering down the mechanics (or, to look at it another way, pumping them up too much for the league).

The solution that would seem (by common sense only, not any study or data) to please the higher amount of players is to have seasonal exclusive content that will always 100% guaranteed be part of standard/legacy once the season is over.

Some people still won’t like it, but some people won’t like whatever solution you come up with. But with this solution you have a perpetual semi-stable realm that will always have access to everything eventually, you always have a seasonal realm that has the latest shiny and constant fresh starts and players can choose which they want to play.

@oldschooldiablo

What ur saying can be achieved by making this content temporary or like poe does. It may go core it may not.

No. That is the biggest problem with PoE. The content should always go core. With no exceptions. The worst part of the FOMO created around seasonal exclusive content is not knowing if it will become core or not. If you’re guaranteed that it will always go core, then perpetual players won’t feel the same FOMO they do in PoE.

But, on the other hand, if the content is always the same at the same time for both realms then the majority of people will naturally join standard/legacy. Because that is the path of least attrition. Most players become perpetual players. And perpetual players have less retention rate than seasonal ones.

[ExSea]

@DJSamhein

There is, though. There are studies that show that in these models the majority of MTX sales happen in the first week, tapering off into the second and after 1 month they’re just a small portion of the income.

first week. so that shows no co relation to player retention isnt there?

the whole argument of why standard shouldnt be allowed to gain access to seasonal content is because players will blast thru content and be bored in a few days.

a few days also is part of “the first week” right?

@DJSamhein

The problem is PoE not doing this reliably and usually watering down the mechanics (or, to look at it another way, pumping them up too much for the league).

and hence the insane amount of FOMO. the only way that i think players like myself would accept seasonal content being gated is there is no FOMO gear/player power wise.

this was actually true for most of POE’s early leagues. there were league exclusive uniques BUT it was not BIS. if players wanted them players could jump in to the league, farm a few chaos and buy em up as usually they were easily obtainable. OR wait until leaguers merged with standard and buy them from there. the prices wont be too expensive.

@DJSamhein

The solution that would seem (by common sense only, not any study or data) to please the higher amount of players

i would agree that it always makes sense to please the majority. but i would contend, how many people would actually prefer if they werent force to play in a reset league?

do you have the numbers? this is another thing that you are assuming. you have no data.

@DJSamhein

have seasonal exclusive content that will always 100% guaranteed be part of standard/legacy once the season is over.

since you mentioned most of the sales are done in the first week. then why not just make the content available to standard after the first week?

your entire premise is based on economical advantage, and you yourself said most of the sales is done during the first week. so if we’re gonna cater to this first week, fine, i ll assume that your numbers and correct. and if so, then release the content on standard after the first week since the company already made most of the sales. isnt that logical?

[Kulze]

@DJSamhein

This is why PoE always does an MTX sale in week 2.

Week 1. PoE has a fixed rotation: 1 weekend is MTX sale, 1 weekend is tab sale. Every second week is always a tab sale.

This hasn’t changed since I think… 6 years or so.

@DJSamhein

So higher peaks = more players = higher percentage of paying ones = more income.

Correlation, not causation.
Neither the increase in player count showed a causation between player numbers and MTX sold directly, it tapered off with more people actually. Nor did it show if the core audience or the ‘tourists’ were the ones paying the most and most reliably.

Actually studies go counter to your argument showcasing that alienating the core playerbase while keeping up a high fluctuating playerbase of those ‘tourists’ is inverse with spending amount.
Why? Because wallets are loose when you’ve already spent once.
Wallets are tight when you’ve not spent yet.
The initial sale is the most important as it makes follow-up sales more likely. A very low percentage of people in comparison spends only money once… the majority does repeatedly when they start to spend.

@DJSamhein

No. That is the biggest problem with PoE. The content should always go core.

The biggest PoE issue is that content doesn’t go core but items are retained.

If content does not go core then don’t retain the items. Simple as that.
Then there’s no problem with the stability of Legacy and there is no FOMO attached to ‘I have to play Cycle as otherwise I won’t be able to get the rewards’ and hence tieing two things together which cause players to avoid their preferred playstyle in favor of burning themselves out for success.

[ExSea]

@Kulze

The biggest PoE issue is that content doesn’t go core but items are retained.

currently i m so against reset seasons that i feel that seasonal content should just be voided at the end of the season.

zero fomo.

[DJSamhein]

@ExSea

the whole argument of why standard shouldnt be allowed to gain access to seasonal content is because players will blast thru content and be bored in a few days.

It’s not the whole argument. It’s also the argument that perpetual players often don’t see the need to play day 1. They will often only join a week later. Or a month. Or skip that season entirely. The content will always be there, so there’s no rush.
Much like what happens with GD or other single player games. Players will often return to it at very irregular intervals.

Which is fine for SP games, but not so good for games that need servers running.

@ExSea

currently i m so against reset seasons that i feel that seasonal content should just be voided at the end of the season.

zero fomo.

That is what D4 does. But that means that, as a perpetual player, you don’t really have anything else to do or build towards, because you never get any new stuff.

I’ll point out again that I like the way LE currently is because I find the constant fresh start to be exhausting (mostly the fault of many years of PoE). But the exclusive-seasonal model has shown to be better for income, which is why companies that do live services follow it.

Which is why I feel like the best way to please most players is simply to have an exclusive season which 100% always gets placed in core when the season ends.
That way, perpetual players don’t need to start fresh because they know they will always access to that content. There is no FOMO for them. In fact, perpetual players are basically playing seasons as well without a fresh start (like now), except they’re always 1 season behind the seasonal characters.

Anyway, I’m sure EHG is studying all the game data. They’re likely watching how many players are playing season vs legacy and how that number has been shifting since launch. And watching how much each of those spend.
Based on that, they’ll come to a conclusion on the best way to go forward.

EHG does have a knack for coming up with innovative solutions to fix problems and please most of the playerbase, so for now I’ll trust in them and will simply wait and see what they will do. And I’ll continue playing while the game feels fun to play.

[ExSea]

@DJSamhein

It’s also the argument that perpetual players often don’t see the need to play day 1. They will often only join a week later. Or a month. Or skip that season entirely. The content will always be there, so there’s no rush.

i think you’re being very disingenuous when you say this. i can agree some may choose to join a day or two or a week later. but if a perpetual player really enjoys the game, they would want to seek their teeth into new content ASAP.

you’re really misrepresenting how HUNGRY players are for content. people actually take leaves for game launches. do you remember how GGG actually once delayed their content release because it was close to cyberpunk? cyber punk isnt even a live service game, theres no fomo no competition nor benefit for playing on day one. but people do play games on day one.

why? because they want to. its not uncommon people take leaves for single player games either.

also, another angle that makes me feel you’re being disingenuous is that standard economy will have a spike on the first few days of the seasonal content release if they had access to it. do you think standard players are just gonna sit on their asses while they have a new toy which will make their economy active again? TWWT unid’ sold for 12 to 20 divines back in the day. standard players would want to capitalize and start farming ASAP if they had the opportunity.

i do agree that there is a possibility that perpetual players just jump in later. but thats a really bad faith argument as it makes a lot of assumptions that are against a perpetual player’s interest.

and even IF the perpetual player jumps in 1-2 weeks or even a month later. ISNT THAT GOOD for the perpetual player? isn’t that good for the game? the numbers have spiked because more perpetual players who wouldnt have touched seasons to begin with return to the game.

@DJSamhein

That is what D4 does. But that means that, as a perpetual player, you don’t really have anything else to do or build towards, because you never get any new stuff.

in POE, during the early years, league content almost never gave gear so good that you felt fomo so strong that you needed to jump into a league. the leagues felt completely optional.

by voiding seasonal content, the result will be the same as perpetual players will not feel fomo. and its a fair compromise. since season players mostly dgaf about perpetual realms to begin with.

d4 does that, that is true but the reason why i dont play d4 is because the seasonal powers are so great that they actively make perpetual players have the worst experience.

even if you have all maxed out gear (all 4GA and maxed), a season player with 2GA gear could out perform the perpetual player thanks to the variety of seasonal powers that are available.

if LE adopts d4’s method of implementing player power as a draw for seasonal content. thats a good way for perpetual players to say bye bye.

if it sounds like a bad idea, it is. because the only good idea is having perpetual players have access to seasonal content. full stop. thats the only solution that perpetual players would accept. tho i would say a compromise is to stagger by 1-2 weeks at most, to let streamers/racers get their 15 minutes of fame and glory.

[DJSamhein]

@ExSea

i think you’re being very disingenuous when you say this.

I’m not, though. I’m being honest in my review. Not only from personal experience and from knowing more players like that as well, but also from data.
Yes, people will create social FOMO and will try to play day 1. But plenty of people don’t adhere to this FOMO. Which is why the first time a AAA game goes on sale they get another bump in the player count.
It’s not an insignificant number of people that don’t care about day 1 FOMO. Especially when that FOMO is social in nature.

And yes, many people will join to play day 1 of a game that has a lot of hype like CP2077 or Elden Ring. But you can’t generate that much hype for seasons. And players eventually get tired of it over time.

So yes, if things were always the same for both realms, you’d still have a lot of people joining day 1 every season. But you’d also have a significant amount that would play whenever.

@ExSea

you’re really misrepresenting how HUNGRY players are for content. people actually take leaves for game launches.

That is because of the fresh start, racing to get to endgame content and having an advantage selling stuff on a still rising economy.
Would most of them still do it without an economy/character reset?

Both EHG and GGG likely have those numbers. GGG even has a distinct advantage in this in that they have both models simultaneously. They have the exclusive seasonal one in PoE1 and the simultaneous one in PoE2.
I guess we’ll wait and see which model they find preferable (meaning which creates more income).

@ExSea

and even IF the perpetual player jumps in 1-2 weeks or even a month later. ISNT THAT GOOD for the perpetual player?

Definitely.

@ExSea

isn’t that good for the game? the numbers have spiked because more perpetual players who wouldnt have touched seasons to begin with return to the game.

Not that much. They don’t spike. Because they come whenever. A few will come during week 1, a few during week 2, a few during week 10, a few will come back next year.

Mostly because a perpetual player is less prone to being affected by social FOMO. They already have powerful characters, they already have a lot of currency stashed. It takes more to get a perpetual player to return actively.

For example, season 3 will see mostly improvements for Lich and Necro. If you don’t care about those masteries, you might not feel any urge to return.
If all you get for your VK main are a bunch of nerfs and maybe 1-2 uniques, you likely don’t want to return right away.
Same as this season being mostly about Pally/VK and those not being my favorite masteries, so I’ve barely played this season and I’m in no rush to. I’ll likely return next season instead becaus I do love Lich and Necro.

To be clear: I’m not here defending that we should have exclusive content for seasons. I actually like how it is. I just don’t think it’s as profitable.
As you yourself said, early PoE leagues didn’t have that much of an impact on standard players and they mostly ignored seasons. And I’m sure GGG analysed the data and that is the reason why they leaned on the league exclusive content as much as they have.

Same as Blizzard. They only care about money. If shared content would generate more money, you can be sure they would do it.

So maybe the question should be: does using shared content still generate enough money to compensate keeping more players happy? If it does, maybe EHG will go that route.

Personally, I would like it if they did. But I wouldn’t be in the least surprised if they didn’t.