While I agree with you in general regarding build homogenisation, I don’t think that overall movement speed should be a metric where the differences between builds should be too big. It feels bad enough to be playing with a friend whose character has much higher dps (& that’s an entirely different conversation), but if your build (perma Spriggan) has significantly lower overall movement speed such that the rest of the party has killed the pack and moved on before you can even reach the first pack that’s not exactly an ideal atate of affairs. Especially if your build doesn’t have a movement skill because the devs don’t want you to have one.
I don’t even mind how that parity is achieved, and I’d be totally fine if it was achieved through different means for different builds (higher movement speed, movement skills with lower cooldown, etc).
And as for haste, that’s hardly a Spriggan form exclusive effect, I think most masteries can get it in one way or another (though it’s been a while and I could be misremembering).
Again, I feel this is because there is still a lack of endgame content and, thus, there is a lack of build specialization. In most ARPGs you end up with a few build archetypes:
-Zoomer, where you move really really fast, but aren’t the best AoE clearer and have low single target and are a glass cannon
-Mapper, where you move decently fast, have great AoE clear, but have low single target and a reasonable eHP pool
-Bosser, where you are slow, have little AoE, but have huge single target and a huge eHP pool
Since LE doesn’t have endgame requiring this specialization, all builds are expected to kinda do the same things, so if one is much slower than another it feels especially bad.
When I played PoE with a friend, we knew that we each had a faster char and a slower char and we usually tried to pair them so one wouldn’t just rush ahead. Unless we were rushing the other or some such, in which case we knew that sometimes the faster one had to wait a little for the other to catch up.
If it was a tree it would be imoveable to start here. Bug… moement skil… bear… movement skill… Lich 1 movement skill + pick and choose all other skills… spriggan… no movement skill.
I don’t want to all classes/masteries/transofrmations to be the same, look the same, play the same and whatnot all I want is equal chances for all shrug removing an essential skill from only one transformation (everything else has a movement skill so it seems to be rather essential) is no good choice.
before you go on again with the “it’s a tree!” borken record… There is a movement skill allready with a ring. Agian there is a very bad option that blocks a very important item slot for a movement skill that is bad. So all the “Tree no moevement!” stuff could be shoved aside for the moment.
The only thing… again… I want to know is why one transformation skill from a mastery is shafted compared to the others and that’s it.
Movement speed should be a choice to make. If you use your possibilities in a way that make you fast you are fast. If you play with someone who don’t invest in MS it’s fair to be faster.
That’s the fun part and I still try to find the logic in the argument: Movement skill for spriggan = bad! Increadible movement speed bonuses that makes the spriggan the fastest srinter there is= Nice lore accurate fits the theme!
It’s only about a movement skill and not about the whole game . In LE there are not even methods that make single target nuke builds. On top of it with the artifical dmg reduction of bosses we’ll most likely never have the need of “bossing” builds in LE. If it takes 10 seconds or 12 seconds… meh this matters only after a lot of runs.
When I play with my friends this whole thing is a non issue BUT in the big picture that’s one big ass weakness that is outstanding and one of a kind.
That’s not the point. Spriggan hardly feels ‘slow’ when you finally have your build working.
The game isn’t even released, and we’re already at the Keeping up with the Joneses point of “Everyone needs to do the same as everyone else, on exactly the same scale”, level of complaining.
At this rate, this game will be dead in the water™ …simply because a tree can’t teleport. Oh teh hoomanatee!
Spriggan Form will not receive a dedicated movement skill in Feb with patch 1.0. I don’t say this to stop the discussion or feedback but more to temper expectations.
Thx for seperating the threads and for your response. While Spriggan is’nt getting a movement skill in 1.0 do the devs think there is a need for it as well? If not all discusion is useless anyway because the facts why and why not a spriggan should have or not have movement skill are’nt changing suddenly .
Well, I don’t personally believe it needs one. When we last looked at the problem and decided to add the item, that’s what we agreed upon as the solution. I don’t want to speak for everyone on if that was successful or not but we do read the feedback which is never irrelevant. I haven’t read anything in this thread that has swayed me yet.
Personally, I feel like the issue here is one of parity. If you only have one single build/class/mastery that has no innate access to a movement skill it feels bad. Especially since you can feel that against some bosses where just walking to evade feels innefective.
It wouldn’t feel as bad if there were more that either had to do without one (having some upside to that) or having to make a choice between having one or sacrificing something.
Again personally, I would prefer if it were not so universal. If you had to make a choice and some builds/classes had a movement skill and others didn’t. It would increase build variety. But that’s just a personal choice. And as we see in PoE, (and also, to a lesser extent -for now- in LE) every build uses some movement skill and the builds are still very varied, so…
I think if you’re looking at it from the highest level view, then yes. But when you get down to it, in this specific instance, Spriggan doesn’t feel bad, as-is. It’s not a melee class… generally being played as a ranged caster or summoner, has access to additional movement speed boosts, and has an AE root/slow ability. It has a good enough toolset, for its intended theme. The only reason we’re discussing this, is because of this high level “someone else has something, so it feels bad my character doesn’t” view.
I’ve played a shitton of Spriggan. I’ve never died due to lack of movement… simply from my own laziness/cockiness/boneheadedness. I’ve also never felt the character was moving in a tub of cold molasses, even comparing it to my rogue or sentinel characters.
The other interesting part is that movement skills, in LE, are generally feel-bad anyhow – with the exception of Shift. They either have an annoying animation delay, limited range, require a target or get hung up too frequently on the environment - or are the product of a gimmick, like Javelin. The problem are even more compounded with the channeled movement, such as Shield Rush. Even with characters that have movement skills, I find it far less annoying to just have good +movement speed when navigating maps. Saving the movement skill for ‘oh shit’ moments, primarily with melee characters (which just have it bad in LE as a rule anyhow).
Certainly. I’ve said before that I’m neither for or against them having one. I just meant that, if other builds or classes didn’t also have access to one, this thread wouldn’t have become as heated as it became.
I’ve also never had that issue with Spriggan myself, but I tend to ignore movement skills in many builds, only using them when I remember or when I really need to evade something. The exception would probably be shield rush, which I use to just bypass large parts of the map. When shield rush works, it works great. The only issue is that it keeps getting interrupted on “invisible” obstacles.
Yeah, I think I can agree with the sentiment, if just viewed from a very high level, homogenized view. But, in this instance, it doesn’t hold much water.
And yeah, I’m the same. Shield rush, I have only really used when back-tracking in a mono, for whatever reason. Shift is usually just to apply the trigger skills, and Sentinel I might use Lunge with orbit skills to quickly get them all in the middle of targets. But rarely are they used simply to get from point A->point B.
It provides no useful stats for non-minion spriggan builds (except giving the worst travel skill in the game). I would rather wear Silver Ring with proper damage and defences, it results in faster movement overall.
All of the explicit stats are vines related, but 7 second cooldown makes playing vines clunky. You want to use your travel skill to travel, so it is almost always on cooldown. But if you rely on vines for damage, that means you often have to wait several seconds before you even start to deal damage, and up to 14 seconds before you can summon them all. And you can’t easily resummon them during boss fights, because you want to leave your travel skill for dodging.
It is okay for other minion builds, for example for thorn totems. But once again, I would rather wear haste totem idols and wear a ring with proper stats.
It has relatively high LP level, about 2.5% to get 2 LP. To bad for a unique, that feels mandatory to wear in a game, where bosses are balanced around every class having some sort of movement skill.
I don’t think it is a good solution. There is no build, that would wear that ring and be happy with it, there is always a drawback.
A better example of similar item is Tears of the Forest. It gives generally good movement speed and armor, and has LP level 28. Although implicits could be better, not even half of transform builds want minion damage.
I suggest putting a node in the skill tree for vine teleport, just like skeletal mages had one, with a similar 4.5 seconds cooldown. Place it near the center, so that non-vine builds can also utilize it. Or even better theme the teleport around thorn shield (thorns wrapping around you, and then you reappear in another place), any build can benefit from thorn shield armor bonuses. And make vines/shield usable during teleport cooldown, or even better make teleport a separate skill, I think almost noone uses all 5 spriggan abilities (5th is human transform).
Another solution is to change the ring stats, so that it can be used for wider range of builds:
Change the base implicits from pure minion stats.
Make explicit mods useful for non-minion builds.
Lower the LP level
Make so that you can still place the vines during cooldown or make teleport a separate skill.
Actually very good point. The only Spriggan build I have is Thorn Totems and it pretty much has permanent Haste. In fact it is one of my faster builds for traversing maps. I still use a Silvafrond though, but that is for boss emergencies not traversal. I don’t need it for traversal.
There is no need to beat a dead horse and to state the obvious people don’t want to hear it and even for the devs this is a non issue. We now have a thread for the topic that resurfaces again and again so maybe at one point people listen untill then I don’t think there is a need to discuss this because Mike gave me the impression that this is of the table and Spriggan players are stuck with what they have + a bad unique ring that solves nothing.
I simply hope over time more people find this thread and agree or disagree on the topic like it was done many times in the past.
If this is a ‘gotcha’ moment, it doesn’t really work. I even stated above I rarely use movement skills to traverse maps, so take all movement skills out of the game, if that makes you feel better about Spriggan not Keeping Up with the Joneses.
If the devs are dead set on a particular thing (like not having shards auto-pickup) then it’s not going to happen.
@EHG_Mike I still don’t understand why Silvafrond adds a 7 second cooldown to Vines when all other movement skills (except Smite with Descend which has 6s & Javelin with Lunge which has a whopping 8s) have 3-5s cooldowns.
I’m relatively new to LE (compared to some people who have been here for years now), but from what I understand, there really isn’t much that the devs are dead set on. There have been quite a few things that the devs have said and later went back on or tried to find a compromise on. I believe afflictions in the enemy health bar was one of them.
Also, Mike actually said:
which seems to mean that he isn’t convinced there is a need to change anything, but that’s far from saying it will never happen.
Even regarding shards, while it’s true they’re sticking to their guns that you need to pick them up (even though Mike himself leaves a lot of them on the ground on his weekly stream ), they’re coming up with a compromise where there are less drops with more shards and you’ll have something to do with the excess ones.
So even on things that they clearly want that way, they’re willing to compromise. As Mike said, “feedback is never irrelevant”.
EDIT: At least, constructive feedback is never irrelevant. Rants usually are.
Ok, but from what I understand, the crafting change (where it used to shatter items) wasn’t a technical issue but rather a change due to player feedback.
As for shards, I already mentioned that, even though they don’t want to change that, they’re willing to compromise to make the whole thing feel better.
As for respeccing masteries, I’m sure there are many opinions and reasons for each, but personally I don’t see a problem with that. Most games work in similar ways. GD also locks the masteries you choose and you can’t respec them. PoE locks your ascendancy. It’s a common enough thing in ARPGs that I have no issue with it.
On the other hand, I’m not opposed to it either. It’s basically a non-issue for me, whichever way it falls on. I’d much rather have a way to fully respec your masteries with one button.
But that’s another issue and we shouldn’t derail this thread (yet again)
. In LE there are not even methods that make single target nuke builds. On top of it with the artifical dmg reduction of bosses we’ll most likely never have the need of “bossing” builds in LE. If it takes 10 seconds or 12 seconds… meh this matters only after a lot of runs.
), they’re coming up with a compromise where there are less drops with more shards and you’ll have something to do with the excess ones.