Regarding time-travel, science fiction usually follows one of three paths:
The “Back to the Future” model: changing the past changes the present. If someone time travels to the past, changes something and then returns to the present, they may find a very different reality from the one they left; they may even erase themselves from existence, depending on how much of the past they change
The “Avengers: Endgame” model: changing the past creates a splint timeline with the changes, but the original timeline is unchanged. Going to the past, changing something and then coming back would lead to the exact same reality one left from; the future of the altered past would be a new, different timelin e
The “12 Monkeys” model: trying to change the past created the present. If someone went back in time to kill baby Hitler, they would fail and learn that their attempt was what actually caused today’s present to be like it is. The past cannot be changed, and the attempts to do so are already part of history.
Now, what is Last Epoch’s model?
When we meet the Oracle, she has already met our characters. Which means, our future is actually her past – the actions we were going to take were already part of the timeline we were living in. Travelling through time was not changing the future, rather reaffirming what had already happened. This is the “12 Monkeys” model…
…Which means, our characters actually can’t change the future. The Ruined Era cannot be prevented, nor can the End of Time.
I don’t really expect the storyline to address this – IMO, this was a wasted opportunity to deal with a scenario in which acting in the past actually changes the future as we advanced through the cam paign.
But I would really enjoy if, at the end of the campaign, we were to fight Orobyss, get a temporary victory (as he claimed he cannot be really defeated, being the god of time and fate), and then use his power to go back in time to the Burning Forest. And then we would kill both Grael and the low level version of our characters. Without those two, there would be no Immortal Emperor and no one to drive Apophis into the past to turn the Observer into Orobyss.
What do you think Last Epoch’s time travel model is?
It should be noted that Back to the Future isn’t really consistent. In 1 and 3 that is what happens, but in 2 they actually create a separate timeline, so…
And you also forgot about the “Premeditation” model, where the protagonist is in a perpetual time loop. It kinda falls into the 12 monkeys model, but it feels different, mostly because the protagonist isn’t trying to break the loop or is even aware it is in one.
And there’s also the “Legends of Tomorrow” model, where you can change the past on the small stuff, but not on the big stuff.
But if they can’t escape the changed timeline (by going sideways rather than back & “correcting” what got changed) then it’s not a separate timeline, it’s a different future.
This, somewow, reminds me of the ages in The Wheel of Time.
This is an age. Every age the dark one, in this case Orobyss, breaks free and the predetermined hero puts him back again and saves the world. But it always goes around. Someone, in a far away age, breaks the dark one free again, and a new hero is born to repeat it again.
Trying to translate an non-time travel idea to a time travel isn’t easy, though. But since the books dabble in prophesies that must be fulfilled I guess it can be seen as that the hero must meet the Oracle, etc. How or when isn’t that important.
Not exactly 12 Monkeys since the hero can fail to meet the Oracle, and then doom the world. But also that Orobyss is inevitable, even necessary.
We get monoliths as alternate timelines, so we can assume that every (probably big) change produces alternative timeline. The way i see it it is not about going far enough in the past to fix it via one action (we already failed that in ancient era), but rather gather tools to fix all problems in all eras we go through. So we will finish war of gods in divine era by beating some sense into Rahyeh or slaying him, getting his blessing for the spear, so can finish the threat of emperor of corpses in imperial era and then do something in ruined era.
Our goal will be not only to create one good altenative timeline, but being able to fix existential threats in many. Like we kind of do in monoliths already.
While I generally agree LE seems to follow what you call the 12 Monkeys model, I don’t think this means the Void and Orobyss can’t be prevented.
The Observer can, apparently, see various futures and timelines. But, when we see him in his prison, and Apophis shows her the ruin of the void in the future, he says “This future… I’ve never seen it.”
This makes me believe that the void and his future self as Orobyss have a special status when it comes to the laws of time. Maybe because they’re linked to the existence and actions of the god of time himself, maybe because the void is a “rot” that affects time itself? (For instance, the void ailment is Time Rot, and a lot of Void Knight stuff is related to time)
But whatever the reason is, the void seems to work differently with the laws of time, perhaps transcending them, which is why I think it might not be as immutable as the rest of time - if they don’t obey the “can be foreseen by the Observer” rule of time, maybe they don’t fully obey the “are set in stone and cannot be changed” rule either?
Ever since Chrono Trigger, I’ve always been a huge fan of time travel in video games if done properly.
This kinds of reminds me of when you go and get your mastery and Elder Gasper basically asks you to pick a different version of yourself from the various timeline. One timeline for an Acolyte, you had chosen being a Necromancer, another time Warlock, and another Lich. Each of these represent a choice in which maybe you already knew the outcome because you already tried it.
This is eluding to something where no matter what mastery you take the void can’t be prevented and you’re almost learning how to master all aspects of not only the Epoch but various points and abilities in time that will help you fight the void.
Why does there have to be a god of time? Are the Eterran “gods” actually gods or just phenomenally powerful entities? Just because others refer to them as gods doesn’t mean they are.
Eterra created Heorot, Rahyeh, Lagon, and Majasa, so they would take care of the world she “created”, but you learn from a piece of lore in the Halls of Preservation that she didn’t create the world at all. She and her brother (the Observer) were created by the “Elysians”, some humans who came before the timeline of the world we know, almost all of whom died to something Eterra refers to as the Calamity.
My point is, neither the four “lesser” gods, nor Eterra and the Observer, are truly “gods” in the absolute sense of the word. But the Observer does have the power to see some futures, and to erase entire timelines if he decides to, which is why I think that, even if he isn’t a true “god of time”, he could still have a special place (and special rules) when it comes to interacting with time.
Edit: If you haven’t already, I strongly recommend going back to the Halls of Preservation (in the temple of Eterra in the ancient era) and reading the piece of lore that you can find there, it’s an insane amount of lore drop from a random “writing” on the ground!
You know, I’m not so sure about that. I may be mistaken, but what I understood from the Halls of Preservation was that there was an incredibly advanced civilization (the Elysians, who created Eterra and her brothers and sisters), but something called The Calamity happened and it destroyed almost everything - the universe, the other gods, most of the Elysians, and so on. All Eterra could save was herself, the Observer and a few depowered Elysians, now reduced back to human-like states. Thus Orobyss’ comment about how, in the beginning, there was only the Void. Eterra would then have created the world of Last Epoch, as well as its “lower gods”.
With the current storyline it’s pre-mediated as a outcome and hence plainly spoken ‘boring’ as the result is visible for anyone knowledgeable about the direction.
Since it hasn’t been adressed I don’t think it’ll change.
To change it the solution of ‘timelines’ (not like in the game which is a closed circle) is commonly introduced. So there can loops happen but further interacting with a already existing loop does change the outcomes. The paradox is solved by causing timelines to ‘split’ with adding new things, which means upon meeting a loop you know you’re the second instance happening which causes the ability to create a third instance to form by going back and changing the situation of what’s happening there to adjust it into something new.
This has to be established early on in a story though to provide the feeling of actually having impact with the actions rather then following a pre-planned infallible timeline which cannot be actively changed.
So if something bad happens and you introduce loops without timeline splits then you know it’s unavoidable and hence boring as you’re just doing detective work rather then solving things. And even if you solve it at the end it’s unfulfilling as nothing showcased that change is possible, making it not a build-up but a sudden resolution, with the solution having always been ‘move back to xyz’ at all the times before to cause a change earlier rather then doing the same failing strategy dozens of times over before finally switching with it immediately ending.
