Because PoE’s skill tree is massively interconnected and honestly that doesn’t happen where you have to invest 4 points into shit you don’t want. Your skill trees are linear paths with small branches. And comparing these two skill trees honestly doesn’t work out cause they are extremely different.
But I can’t find an example for LE where you need a node in the tree but the nodes leading to it are ‘shit you don’t want’. Could you give me such an example?
What he said. I’m not launching this game so I can scan through the trees to give you an example. And example’s aside, it still doesn’t change the fact that it’s a restrictive system, which you yourself admitted to.
wolfang_630 meant the Fan of Blades node of the Shurikens skilltree. But instead of going through Toxic Tips (which indeed requires 3 points) he could take the Deep Cuts node (only 1 point). and it gives 10% bleed chance. NOt useless at all. At least he says himself that ’ I could deal with the 1 point 10% chance’.
But I do agree that some nodes links in LE could be improved and I’m sure they will be. But you can’t make an aRPG game that is not restrictive at all. Diablo, PoE, Grim Dawn all of them are restrictive games where you sometimes need to invest in something you could do without to reach something you really need.
Lmao the difference is that path of exile has a way better skill tree and its not often you have take something you don’t want/need to get to where you wanna go (especially with things like dex/str/mana stacking existing). Sure you will take useless nodes every now and then, but part of the creativity is finding the most optimal way to path to get the nodes you want. The PoE tree is so complex and there are so many options and paths you can take that it does not often feel like, “damn, im forced to take these few nodes I didn’t want… that sucks.” You can easily respec certain nodes that you might have needed while your character was weaker, the easiest example would be something like +30 dex node to equip an item/level a gem. You can also have more than 1 option when pathing to specifics nodes and keystones and you can literally create options through things like cluster jewels and unique jewels.
A skill might be weak with a 3 links gem setup but getting stronger as you find a 5-linked body armor.
And with regards to PoE skills in particular, yes, you need links. But you don’t need 4 of this one gem to link it to the other gem. I’m not going to elaborate much more on this point though because I don’t think its fair to compare this game’s skill system to PoE, PoE just objectively does it much better.
So why you didn’t show your creativity and take Deep Cuts instead of Toxic Tips on the way to the Fan of Blades node you needed? it is only 1 point . Anyway not much more wasted nodes than the number of not so useful nodes we all have sometimes take in the PoE tree.
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You’re right if you’re considering I took weighted projectiles already, which I haven’t. I took 3 points into alacracity to reach the +2 shurikens there and pathed up to ethereal blades in preparation for deadly aim. I would have to take weighted projectiles and deep cut, 1 point of each to reach fan of blades. So it would cost 2 points not 1, but you are correct, its better than the 3 for poison chance. But I mostly went for poison so I could grab entry point and fan of blades off the same node. Sure the 30% chance isn’t particularly useless you can say, but considering im also using the poison flask which has 100% chance to poison and the puncture skill with 30% chance to bleed, I don’t see much point into having to invest more than 1 point into the poison chance to get there. And either path I take, if I go from ethereal blades to fan of blades (the top path) or take the poison nodes and both entry points and fan of blades, it would cost 5 points either way considering how my tree is now. Both paths seem redundant to me considering I already have my poison and bleed on my other skills. It might be different if it was my only skill but as of right now I only have 2 skills i can specialize in so I need to rely on a combination of skills to get done what I want to do to make up for the tedious amount of investment I need to make 1 skill feel good to play.
But in LE the more chance to poison you have the better. There’s no cap like in PoE. Just with say 150% chance you’ll put 1.5 poison stacks per hit. with 200% chance 2 poison stacks per hit. So it is not useless. More stacks = more damage
But I do agree the LE skill trees could and will be improved they are far from being perfect. Also I find the current skill tree respec system to be too restrictive. I just keep in mind that the game is still in a beta phase and many things will change.
Oh, well that’s good information that I wasn’t aware of. And yeah, it kind of devolved from the original point of the post, atleast from my understanding that the respec system feels restrictive. I was under the impression that the poster was saying the respec system felt restrictive because you have to un-level a skill and re-level it to get the points back, and that just doesn’t feel fun when it takes so much investment to get to certain nodes.
For example, if I wanted only the extra proj and not the other node and I took the 3 points in poison like you said and realized I could save 1 point by taking the top route, I would have to respec all 3 points which I wouldn’t get back unless I hit the specific level it has set that starts giving you points back and level the skill 3 more times. That is specifically what makes the system not feel good to me.
I don’t speak for the original poster but hopefully this elaborates on at least what I thought he was trying to say.
Just tossing in 2.c here, but you can absolutely have creativity through restriction. There are entire fields of art dedicated to that sentiment. Engineers frequently need to find creative solutions within budgetary and design restrictions. Heck, as cheesy as it sounds, it’s not as if refrigerators are infinitely replenishing: professional cooks make way better dishes out of old leftovers than most other people.
That being said, there are other games that are less restrictive, and probably some that are more. At some point I think you need to take the current design as the dev’s vision and decide whether you want to buy into or not. To me, who’s used to this kind of skill tree where you have to invest a certain amount of skills to move down, this is pretty normal, and far less restrictive than what I’m used to. YMMV.
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Dark Quiver has this.
4 points in ‘Nightfall’ - picking up Black Arrows grants Dusk Shroud, which is dodge + glance chance.
Locked behind that is ‘Until Dawn’ - 5 points, 5% chance on attack to summon a black arrow.
That being said, it’s the only one I can think of off the top of my head, and only because I really want Dark Quiver reworked, as it’s just a pain to use the ability. So much so that I have an un-specialized Decoy instead of it on the bar, because I’d rather have random arrows and a taunt, than just Dark Quiver by itself.
As far as the discussion on ‘waste’ points comparing PoE vs. LE… PoE is full of them. Tons of times you have to get +str/dex/int to go somewhere specific. If the ability you want for a specialized build is on the far side of the tree… well, it’s a long trek over, usually 10-15 points wasted.
My only qualm about LE’s trees is that it incentivizes you to not try new abilities. Wanna try a new skill while leveling? Ok, be prepared to lose 5-10 levels if you don’t like it. At least they put in the minimum specialization points, because before it was even worse.
Yes, you could jump into the arena at level 100 and get a skill to 20 in what, 15 minutes supposedly? The fact it’s possible to respec quickly eventually doesn’t mean it’s a good system while leveling.
Personally, I’d prefer it if you gained specialization points while leveling, and all skills could go to 25 instead of 20. Then you’d have to decide if you want to have one skill at 15, and another at 25, or 1 skill with zero, and 4 at 25. It’d be a fine line between ‘Which skill should have more points’, and ‘I can do with less here’
I agree with OP, the skill trees are a bit weird. One example that really sticks out is a waste of a point in Rip Blood that makes minions target what you target. Why is it a wasted point? Because pressing {A} costs zero skill points and targets whatever you want.
So if you had the points to take every node in a skill tree, how would that allow creativity? Every skill tree would look the same. Perhaps I should have said “restrictions breed creativity”? I thought that I meant was obvious but apparently not.
So, kinda like restrictions breeding creativity?
While this is more of a QoL Point, it is not even required as a prerequisite for anything, so you do not need to spend any points on it, if you don’t like it.
That is a fair example, but there the point of balancing kicks in. There are probably very few effects that would make sense as a prerequisite for that node. Since that is a gameplay altering change, that needs to be locked behind anything.
Having people not like Dark Quiver is totally ok, because that thing is pretty unique as a skill.
For me this ability is a game changer and the only reason i would play marksman, because without that i do feels marksman is pretty boring.
I find it to be unfair when I respec 1 single point (when I for example decide to swap points between 2 nodes) it just…disappears. And I need to earn it again. But why? While leveling every single point in skill tree is very valuable. And when the game takes my hard-earned point for now obvious reason it is weird.
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Because you did make a decision. For me personally that is a very obvious reason and it makes you think before mindlessly putting points into skills.
Also don’t forget: Each skill point you respec, does reduce the skills level, which leads to re-leveling quicker than before. This gets faster and faster, the more you come into the later parts of the game.
Sure if you wanna look at it that way. My point is that PoE skill tree is much better, sure you can take a handful of useless nodes to get to something you want, but you have options, you can go around, you can grab it from a different angle, you can play as a different character, you can get less “useless” nodes and optimize your path to the point where you need every node you have. All that with an easy respec system that you can use while leveling to change up your build for what you need at that point in time.
LE is different, and I’ve said this before I don’t think its fair to compare this game to PoE because PoE is just objectively better and does all these systems way better. In LE you likely have 1-2 choices of path for each notable keystone. This is not creative, this is not a choice. And the real point of this post is that once you go down one of these paths and find out it sucks or you don’t like it, you have to de-level your skill and restart at square one.
I understand what you are saying but I have a feeling you haven’t played PoE to the fullest extent. Those 10-15 points “wasted” on str/int/dex are not really a waste, they improve your overall strength and dps a lot more than you would think. Certain skills require a certain amount of dex/str/int which you would otherwise have to waste time getting on gear if not for the skill tree. And especially in recent times when things like str/dex/mana stacking exist, it doesn’t really feel like a waste to get 10-15 points in those stats. As a side note, you also have the option to change your class to change where you start on the skill tree. It’s not often that you are absolutely forced to stretch across the entire tree to get just one build defining notable, you have a lot of choices.
But sometimes it is hard to decide just by reading the description. The player should see the changes in action to decide. Besides often the skill descriptions are vague and not 100% clear. Anyway i do understand that is the devs’ game design decision and take it but would prefer a more free skill respec system
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I agree. You won’t exactly know how a notable might feel to play until you get it. Especially when it seems like a lot of the notables change the way skills work. Having to respec and then relevel a skill 5+ times just to try another keystone thats likely 2-3 nodes away doesn’t feel fun, it feels punishing and restrictive.
If you like it, more power to you. Some people don’t & liking something is usually a subjective thing. Plus more choice isn’t always a good thing (see, Tyranny of Choice).
It’s different & it has had a lot longer to polish things, that’s not necessarily the same thing as “objectively better”.
I would like there to be more ways to get to the various bigger nodes on the skill trees but I’m not sure how practical that would be given the skill trees are much smaller in LE compared to the Skilldrassil PoE has.
Yeah, as long as the travel nodes are relevant to your build (eg, int for an ES-build) then they aren’t wasted, or if they give you stat points that are needed for your gems, they’re very not wasted.
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