TLDR: when do skill node damage more/inc stats transfer.
To start off please don’t say it depends or when it’s valid. I get that I’m basically asking what’s the default or general rule.
So I have a few (all the ones I can think of) examples of when inheritance may apply or not.
- ailments (fixed flat damage) like ignite/poison/frostbite
- ailments (scalable flat damage) like torment/plague/timerot (forgive me if I got examples what flat applies to wrong)
- sub skills (exclusive to skill tree) like fissue in smite
- sub skills (class or mastery based) like when shadow rend cast umbral blades or flay casting chaos bolts
- sub skill (item based proc) like spark charges on enigma
- sub skill (non skill exclusive but non class or mastery base) like when lightning blast cast spark charges
- sub skills (exclusive to skill tree) when a minion cast them like falcon and acid flask
- sub skills (class or mastery based) when a minion cast them such as giving bone golem hungering souls or skel mages casting sacrifice (if they count as skill tree ones)
- sub skill (item based proc) when applied to a minion like using dragon flame staff and fire crows and you cast crow storm causing crows to cast dragon flame nova
- idol like sent and throwing attack can cast cast smite like using hammers to proc smite
That’s all I can think of for now.
As a bonus if you’re really smart. Same questions as before but now add dmg conversion. Like void smite.
Rule of thumb is:
-Ailments and subskills that don’t have a skill tree all inherit damage nodes, whether it’s flat damage, increased damage or more damage. Unless the increase is for a different element, like getting increased fire damage not applying to frostbite (conversions not withstanding).
-Subskills with their own skill tree (even if it’s for another class) don’t inherit damage nodes and use the ones from the skill tree instead.
Basically the first case is like if the skill is casting/applying the subskill/ailment, whereas in the second it’s still you that is casting it.
Conversions are trickier. A rule of thumb is that it converts damage nodes in the skill tree (though this doesn’t always happen) but it doesn’t convert it from affixes in your gear. So converting physical to fire would mean all your physical damage nodes in the skill tree would apply, but your physical damage affix won’t be converted.
This is because conversions work by changing the base skill damage. It used to be physical, now it’s fire.
Almost always a conversion will specify what it converts. If it just says it converts physical to fire, then bleed won’t be converted to ignite. It has to specifically say it will. When it does, it usually says something like “all sources of bleed are converted to ignite”, which means that bleed affixes on gear do get converted.
Llama is more of an expert on all this, and I’m sure he will clarify things in more detail, but as far I understand how LE works, this is the basics of it.
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Just for clarity in a case like flay casting chaos bolts. Will any of flays skill tree node inherent to chaos bolts.
Side note if the answer is no a skill that has a skill tree can never inherit another skill trees node no matter what. I personally believe it should, balance and all that considered and factored in. Even if it was only a 10% inheritance there should be something. As if there is no bonus outside of not having to cast the skill manually or to allow a 6th non specialized skill to be put on bar over the indirect cast spell honestly what’s the point. ATM if this is the case only benefit I see is saying your fingers and the few skills that get mana cost reduction (like zombies casting sacrifice for 50% of cost)
Bonus side note if the player is punished (lose life or pay increased cost or less (x) happens(like zombie amount reduction on indirect summons) or has to pay min full cost. At very least indirect casts should get full skill tree bonus if specialized (prior to s4 some cases of this existed unsure if changed) and ideally should get full (valid/applicable) parent node inheritance.
They don’t inherit it, no. Those nodes are usually just so you don’t cast them manually. And they allow you to cast more stuff than you normally would. A good example is warpath triggering smites. Normally you wouldn’t be able to cast smite while warpathing, so you get the benefit of both without having to stop channeling it.
Almost always the upside is simply having extra spells/skills going off from your main skill which wouldn’t otherwise happen.
Some of these autocasts do have a cost reduction, but sometimes they also have limits on how many triggers per second they can have.
I don’t think it should ever inherit anything from the base skill. Otherwise there would be skills where it would actually be worse to be manually casting them, like the aforementioned smite. If smite were to get bonuses from the warpath tree, then those smites would always be stronger than just specializing into smite.
This would make using the skills manually inherently worse than having it autoproc.
Like I get balance and keeping things in check is important and all, it just sometimes I just want crazy things.
Like I want to have it so that when I have it that when I cast flay and it can cast chaos bolts and chaos bolts can cast rip blood. And let’s say flay has 20%more phy dmg and 100%inc spell dmg and chaos bolts has increased 15% phy pen and added crit multi 58% i want all that to be applied to the end of the skill chain cast of rip blood.
Yeah I get it OP and broken but it doesn’t make me want it any less. Maybe if devs considered it the inheritance would come with a cost like x2 damage taken if you recently cast a skill that was cast indirectly.
I get you wanting it. But the issue isn’t so much the skill becoming OP and broken, but forcing players to play in a certain way.
Want to make a Smite build? You have to do Warpath because Smite is stronger that way.
Do you want to feel like a spellslinger and cast smite manually? Tough, because that will feel like a nerf.
Want to make a Rip Blood build? You have to use Flay or Chtonic Fissure casting Chaos Bolts because that is just stronger.
Etc.
Something like this might sound fun, but it actually shoehorns players into playing the skill in a specific way just because it’s stronger that way.
It’s not about it being OP or not, it’s about it being the best option by far so much that it removes player choice.
I get what you’re saying and I know your point is valid.
I just hate design limitations because of certain players would feel a certain way.
The idea of you shouldn’t do (x) because if you do it makes (y) “worse” by comparison urks me, but it is what it is. And TBH end of day the games a business and needs money to continue to be developed. And the devs have to make decisions with that in mind I get it.
I just wish people would stop comparing and thinking they miss out if they are not the best of the best at (x).
This is an off topic but related side note. I personally have been having a terrible time S4 up until yesterday. The implementation of omens is basically anti my play style. I prefer to forgo any def layers and only care about pushing my damage as far as it can go, basically glass canon (I call it Gannon Style). With the introduction of omens overwhelming numbers/ immune enemies that can damage me/ small forced areas you have to stand in/ crazy amount of mob hits per sec/ and overlapping dots, omens are the worst for me. I always try and avoid meta and won’t use another’s build(least least not directly I can do same build but I have to make it from scratch myself with no guide) but omens almost made me make the Meta UMB blade build as everyone of my builds weren’t cutting it. Made me feel like my 4K+ hours played were pointless and I didn’t know how to make a build. Thankfully I reverted and ended up remaking a dive bomb falcon build I had with Umb blades. It’s not the greatest but I can finally do 300c omens. Prior to s4 I was in 1/2/3k corruption and can still do 3k bosses and uber, but they can’t even do 100c omens sadly.
