Nobody is being aggressive but you, Llama and others have told you how it is, you can decide to accept it or not. We honestly dont care. For some reason you feel your opinion trumps others, doesnt work like that.
PoE has set the precedent which EHG should follow, if a league goes core then all standard players can also access the content in question, albeit in a potentially altered state post season finish. Content and economy refreshes are what keep a live service game, well, alive. If you dont want to make a new toon and play with others, thats totally cool, but you may have to wait a few months for the content to be available to your legacy characters.
It’s a reasonable assumption though. How many league mechanics didn’t go core (ignoring Legacy league) out of how many leagues?
No, that’s not what he said. To paraphrase, they play until they’ve exhausted the fun/seen everything (that they want to see).
Er, 'k. I took that to mean that standard players would be able to experience a league mechanic much faster because they have their pre-prepared characters who can just blast through it.
So you’re saying that you don’t want seasonal content to ever go core?
I’d imagine that there’s probably as much uncertainty as to how many of the GD players will buy the expanion as to how many will buy a pack for LE/PoE. Statistically, both companies will have an expectation of a certain level of income.
Maybe, maybe not, after all, they’ve got the game, they don’t need to pay extra for it.
Would you mind doing the same with your apparent assumption that content is unlikely to go core? Statistically, it probably will.
Yeah, that number is complete crap. Their revenue in FY 23 was 83m NZD (~48m), 83.8m in 22 & 105m in 21. It’s very wasy to get them from the stat accounts. Though they are the global revenues so you’d need to assume thd standard/league split is the same over all territories.
Not if it costs >1.5m to make that seasonal content. Though how much more it would need to cost to make it not worthwhile is up for debate as new stuff would keep the standard players around for longer.
if u want numbers i ll just say MOST of them did. but i would also argue before the most recent ones, the ones that mattered the most to legacy players are the ones which had league exclusive gear (ignoring mechanics). Lets see the list of what powers players have lost.
Sanctum - Sanctified relics is the chase. Came to core, players could farm original sin but most players (including my self) are salty that our sanctified relics got poofed. so even tho the content came to core. What I worked so hard for did not.
Crucible - Anyone who didnt play during this league can never get a crucible weapon outside of trade. Content did not make it to core
Affliction - Similar to crucible, TWTT jewel is insanely powerful. Didnt play? Try your luck in trade. Dont have what you want? Too bad. Also we got charms and tinctures. Charms got poofed. Tinctures too but tinctures came back reworked. The actual mechanic did not come back.
Ancestors - Tattoos. The ones we have are tbh decent but many rare tattoos that gave +1 charges or +1 to all skills are unobtainable outside of trade. Mechanic did not come back.
Forgotten the league name, the one where we have a second alva - Cooked items. We could cook a corrupted item up to 3 times gaining powerful mods that could come with downsides and could even grant keystone passives. items are unobtainable outside of trade. Mechanic did not come back.
From these few leagues we can see that legacy players have so much FOMO.
If they dont play in a league theres a high chance of not getting the item that they want.
If they DO play and get the item they want, theres no guarantee the item will not get poofed.
I’ll also add some leagues that i find crucial for legacy players who want power that made it to the game.
Blight - anoints
Harvest - enchants
Legion - timeless jewels
Syndicate - 30% quality items (no longer can get 30%)
Delirium - cluster jewels
Ascendancy (expansion) - enchants (no longer can enchant)/ Alt quality gems (essentially got poofed)
Heist - enchants
There might be others but to me all of them were content i was FORCED to run because of FOMO. if they didnt make it to core. then what? i would be missing out on all these powerful items.
heck, now we’re talking about it. metamorph, cadiro and prophecy leagues got poofed later onwards in the game after being added for a long while. but yeah that beyond the point.
its important to note why i am specifying these particular leagues. if i base it off of “all league content” theres tons of league content that are nothing burgers, especially the early ones such as ambush (strong boxes) and shrines which give ZERO season exclusive gear. i skipped a ton of such leagues in a heartbeat. zero hesitation. no FOMO because there was nothing i wanted.
I am aware that LE is a different game and is not POE but its a good case study to show how much FOMO can be generated. even tho only 4 league content didnt make it, it sets a precedence. Play or else you might not get the league exclusive gear. even ONE league not making it to core sets that precedence. So even when you say how many did not make it out of the grand total. percentages do not matter in this context.
why i say it does not matter. think of it this way. if i hand you a box and your task is to grab whatever is inside and place it on a table and all boxes can only contain water balloons. then you could easily just ram your hand in, grab the item out and slap it on the table with zero hesitation. but if one day i came to you with 50 boxes. and i specifically tell you. one of them is full of razor blades. you MUST check each box and can no longer ram your hand in. does it matter that its 1 out of 10? 1 out of 100? 1 out 1000? you need to check.
ok so this works for both resetters and legacy enjoyers.
and how does this hurt reset enjoyers?
preferably it should but its not necessary. if the content is bad, just poof it.
i agree to a certain extent. the reality is we simply dont have the data and even if we had sales data theres no “reason for buying” listed anywhere.
going by POE standards which EHG seems to be intent on following, then i have to disagree. also i have mentioned why statistics dont matter. if theres a single precedence of a season not going core, it would cause players like myself who value more power to jump into the season. i exists as one of the sort of players. i have friends similar to me. players like me exist.
the devs will make seasonal content either way. all i m asking is for them to simply ensure legacy players gain access. EHG is already doing that.
I think it’s a subconcious thing where, every new content, season, is a “race”, let me get the fun / discover / try things “first”. By first i don’t mean be the first on ladder but without being completly overtaken by people showcasing everything from their legacy character that ended the new content, experimented with it in less time it takes you to unlock empowered. (This concept is more of feeling about what I think, my words may not correctly transcribe what I think/feel, but I’m sure it’s a big component that people may not realize themself)
Additionnally MG in legacy is forcibly shit for new players since everyone having characters earlier than them has more gold, and gold losses value (inflation), a new season also resets economies which i think is important for MG to be good for anyone.
Yes, that’s what I’m saying. I love GD. It’s lots of fun. I play it once or twice a year, usually. Often during downtimes of other games’ seasons. And often for a week or two.
I have no reason to play GD more regularly because the content will always be there. If there’s another game I want to play, I play it instead. GD won’t be going anywhere.
I’ve played LE and PoE much more often than I did GD or D2, even though I love those games and they’re a lot of fun.
I’ve even played D3 more often than GD, even though I only played it for a few days each season. But I did join for each season, whereas I’ve gone without playing GD for more than a year at a time.
We are currently discussing two models:
-You suggestion that everything gets added to season and legacy at the same time.
-My suggestion that everything that gets added to season will get added to legacy 4 months later.
In both these cases, season content is always added to legacy.
GGG does that, much like they ignore the 10-20% of players that hate trading.
My suggestion was to avoid this, while maintaining seasonal exclusive content.
You can’t just make assumptions that all players are the same and spend the same. It’s not likely that this happens. As I said, the vast majority of income comes from the first week, when there’s a huge boom of incoming players. These are not likely standard players. Standard players tend to play more casually. They play on and off over an extended period of time.
There is no data that I’m aware of regarding the division between seasonal and standard. All the studies I’ve seen in the past were regarding the seasonal model, so they didn’t address standard.
I haven’t checked it for a long time, though. It’s possible that new studies came regarding this.
Yes. But GD doesn’t have servers. That’s what I said before. If there’s not enough seasonal players, seasons stop happening, servers shut down and you get the GD model, rather than a live service.
Actually, you’re the one ignoring things. I was talking about my proposed solution, not how PoE does things now.
I agree with you that the current state of PoE’s seasonal model is exhausting. It’s why I stopped playing it.
But if you make it so that seasonal content ALWAYS goes to legacy/standard, only 4 months later, then everything should be fine for both playerbases.
Sure. And probably a few more, like “I want to swing my ePeen at everyone else showing how cool I am”. Still only a small minority of players.
Yes. That is pretty much the whole basis of the model. And why GGG does a sale in the first week of the season.
I was discussing your scenario where everything gets added to both at the same time.
So if the content is always there, there is no time pressure for anything and I don’t have to join on day 1. Or even in this season. Or even this year.
If there’s a game that I’m only kinda interested that releases around the new season, I would rather play game A instead, because the stuff for the new season will still be there.
Whereas with a season-exclusive mechanic (even if it will be added 4 months later to standard), I might pick the seasonal game instead.
Yes. That is what I meant. A big part of the retention rate (how long players will stick around) is how long it takes you to beat the new content.
In a seasonal character, you have to grow in power until you can do this. You can handle a part of the new content, then you improve some more and can progress a little more, then you keep improving until you beat it. There is a sense of progress and of experiencing the new content.
In a legacy character, I already have my level 100 that is farming 1k+ corruption. I immediately skip the lower steps of the new content and go directly for the end of the content. There’s no progression nor any achievement in beating it. I just log in, go beat up uber Aby and am immediately bored because there’s no challenge or progression.
Not everyone feels like this, but it’s a safe assumption that this would be a common scenario.
It doesn’t hurt reset enjoyers. It hurts EHG’s income. Because legacy players will stick around for a shorter period of time.
i agree to this. and EHG actually solved this when they gate certain bosses and encounters behind global resetters progress. abaroth should not be available to legacy players until resetters have cleared him.
i need to correct you a tiny bit. its good for MG lovers and reset economy lovers. i do agree that by having players have the option to NOT reset, the people playing MG in the reset league will be less.
my counter point would be this.
people who would prefer to not reset either are forced to reset to enjoy the content. this benefits reset enjoyers but do not benefit them at all. in fact players like me have grown resentment to the point i rather not play at all.
why do i say that? simply because the game is forcing non resetters to play something they dislike for a group of other players. why should non resetters suffer for reset enjoyers?
its like forcing your friend to play healer while you play dps. you’re enjoying your time while your friend is only enjoying halfheartedly.
then as a long time legacy player who’s played legacy “forever”, EHG will lose my financial support.
and to be honest, many others prefer not to reset. but i m one of the weird guys who are passionate to fight so hard for it because i do want to play LE. i do want to support EHG.
with my experience with POE tho, i really have learned that as much as I talk. it doesnt matter much. i’ll just vote with my wallet. EHG might not feel it. and thats fine. I have done what I can to make my demands heard. i speak for others like me who have practically given up and moved on to other games. and yes. there are many who have moved on. but i also realize i dont speak for everyone. there are definitely legacy players who choose to stay and accept being treated as a second class citizen.
Yes. That is fair. It’s mostly how the model came up, anyway. I’m pretty sure they went the way they did because it provided them with more income.
But I was trying to prevent this and please both sides.
So if we assume that all seasonal-exclusive content ALWAYS gets added to legacy, would you still be against having to wait 4 months to get it? Knowing that every season you’d get a new mechanic to play with without having to reset, you’d just always be 4 months behind seasonal ones?
Sadly there is much more going on.
Example Fortnight:
In Fortnight good players with cosmetics get paired with worse players without cosmetics. This makes players relate skins and mtx to player skill. And of course seeing other players with mtx normalizes it.
I think they also do this with bots I believe. Bad bots with “bad” or no cosmetics as fillers for missing players.
Then there is the whole can of worms of manipulative tricks games pull after the first purchase mostly connected to premium currency. Like everything in the shop costs 300 gems but you can only buy 400 gems in a bundle. The 100 left over are not enough to buy anything else. After breaking down the initial barrier to purchase this makes it much more likely for players to spent again. Fomo deals also play into this (a limited deal? I already have left over coins? Now or never!) and there are much more shady practices.
When targeting children with this shit this gets downright evil causing gambling addiction and whatnot.
I’m very glad LE doesn’t do most of this.
Personally, as someone who also does not like PoE like seasons, I’d be fine with it. More so if bugs get fixed for it in the meantime.
all the players who choose to play in legacy are lost potential market for resetter’s economy. lesser players mean lesser supplies. an example is in poe. yellow life force in temp leagues tend to be “cheap” when a lot of players are playing which is what the top percenters want as they can buy yellow life force at a good rate. similarly when high end crafters engage in the reset cycle, they will have tons of “failed crafts” which could then be sold at a cheap rate to finance their next crafts. when a portion of resetters leave to legacy, this would mean less players selling yellow life force. the few at the top would have to compete with each other and offer higher rates to entice players to sell their life force to them. which can be good or bad depending on which angle you’re looking at. as for crafted items, if top crafters left, players would have LESS good items to buy. which can drive item prices thru the roof.
there really is zero way to combat this. and its actually worse in LE because CoF exists. in fact my recent reroll is CoF and i really dont want to engage in trading anymore. its kind of cheating to me. but regardless of how i feel. the community is already split between mg and cof. then an additional split between legacy and resetters would make the player base even smaller.
resetter economy would be shittier.
if i m being honest, i would rather reset seasons be vanquished and just make it so seasons just exist on legacy. but i know that would upset resetters as some resetters do legit enjoy resetting. its just i m so salty that i have to always sacrifice my own enjoyment as the devs cater to these people.
as for the 4 month compromise. i do like the idea of seasonal content always getting added to legacy. tho it still doesnt take away from the fact i m being gate kept by 4 months.
2nd class citizen.
which is why i m being very selfish with my request. fuck the resetter economy. let legacy players have fun.
i ll add this if we disregard the “bigger picture” and zoom in to just a very small scope.
i want to enjoy seasonal content
dev complies - i enjoy the game and play it
dev doesnt - i dont play
resetter want to enjoy seasonal content
dev complies - they play the game anyway
dev doesnt - nothing changes they play anyway
the major difference is i m robbed of any choice in the matter. i simply have to eat shit and reset or wait until seasonal content makes it to core
resetter economy be damned, the end result is the devs still get more players to play and players would enjoy the game as theyre not being forced to play in a way they dont like.
you know. its pretty interesting how legacy players are no longer the majority. perhaps. just perhaps a lot of them felt they were sick of being treated as 2nd class citizens years before i finally realized how i was being treated?
perhaps if we werent treated like shit more of us would remain loyal to the game? i kid you not ignored so many poe leagues and just soldiered on playing standard for many solid years before finally going into leagues.
This is not true, though. They will leave as well. Or they might play the game once a year.
Just look at the blaster content creators like Rax, Ziz, Wudi, Ghazzy, etc. When was the last time you saw them play a non-seasonal game? They all have said several times that GD is a great game. And yet, you never see them playing it. They will probably cover it for a bit with a new expansion, but then they won’t pick up the game again.
Because for these players the whole point is that everyone starts fresh and it’s a race to the top. If this isn’t in the game, they don’t play it. And if only a handful of people are doing it, they don’t play it.
So it’s not true that people that enjoy resets will still play anyway if they don’t have that option.
The most likely evolution is that GGG saw that seasonal players were the ones giving them the most income via MTX and decided to focus on them.
If standard players were the main source of income, they would have focused on them instead.
since when does allowing legacy access seasonal content make a game non seasonal?
its still seasonal.
when EHG gives players a new season ALL content creators will jump on the band wagon to cover it. simple as that. GD is 100% non seasonal. it doesnt make as much money as covering games like LE and POE as the viewerbase is smaller.
so are you talking on behalf of all reset enjoyers?
which is why i mention. knowing history is important. knowing WHY leagues were made separate is important. i’ve listed them. 1. to ensure the sanctity of standard (doesnt ruin the economy/game via OP items). 2. give players an excuse to restart and have a fresh economy 3. temp leagues also functioned as a beta test for GGG to decide if they wanted to add in content to core.
back then i would argue standard players were a larger percentage and as i pointed out, it took quite awhile before exclusive gear that gave players power was introduced into leagues.
every step taken towards enticing players to go league was a step away from protecting a standard player’s best interest.
i find it kinda sad that i took so long to finally realize that i m not the target market. as of such i just dont contribute to the devs financially anymore.
it takes a special kind of person to want to support someone who actively treats you worse than others.
You were talking about having no seasonal realm. Having just legacy. So there are no resets available. Which means blasters won’t enjoy your game.
But I will give you another reason why this would be bad:
Currently, the new season mechanic that is being introduced is balanced around a new character and its progression. This means that any new player can come to the game and enjoy it, even if they never played the game before.
With your suggestion, new mechanics would have to be balanced around already having a level 100 character that farms 1k+. Which means that a new player coming into the game won’t even see the new content until they’ve managed to reach that top content.
And this will only be accentuated each new “season”. Within 3-4 seasons, new players will have no chance of ever catching up to the established playerbase and will have to grind for months on end just to try to reach that baseline.
They will. For a couple of days. Because that is all the time they need to finish the new content with their ultra gigachad level 100 characters. Unless you balance the mechanic only for this, in which case we fall into the issue described above.
Not all, but a significant part of them. It’s a spectrum.
If there is no reset, some people that enjoy resets will leave. Some will stay and play for less time. For some it will make no difference.
Just like the current system, for people that don’t enjoy resets, some will leave. Some will stay and play for less time. And for some it will make no difference.
How many of each will stay or leave with each model? No idea. GGG and EHG possibly know this better than us since they have a bunch of data they can analyze.
EDIT: Just want to point out that this is not a new trend nor is it something that GGG came up with. It actually started all the way with D2. Ladders have always had exclusive things you couldn’t get outside of them, like runewords or uber tristram.
Mike specifically said that the idea of seasonal-only mechanic sounds fun and they do plan to add them once there are enough mechanics in the game that “Legacy” can stand on it’s own. Basically “Legacy” needs to be an a point of saturation for seasonal-only mechanics to make sense.
In that case, how do you feel about CT getting the content before everyone else? Does that make everyone else second class citizens compared yo CT?
I get it, but that kind of viewpoint doesn’t really engender much sympathy. If you’re ok with fucking over the other side then you should expect to be fucked over & take it without complaint, because that’s what you’d do given the choice.
Well i played since 2012 and i now play only leagues in PoE, even if i played when there were no leagues exclusives. With that said you will, possibly, end up playing new seasons only if EHG manage to keep it fresh good content from time to time. New leagues deploy new content to standart players too, i can’t imagine why play only standart tbh, if seasons’ will get more players for the game to be healthy well so be it. I would preffer that than an abandoned arpg like d3, i say d3 cuz d2 even without new content still better than new diablos ezpz.
you were mentioning how IF cycle content was allowed on legacy streamers and other people would play it once a year or just forget about it similar to GD. and to me thats you projecting a game mode that i dont even want. i want a seasonal game with BOTH reset and legacy options and both should have access to seasons. hence it still remains a seasonal game.
the first part of what you mention is correct 100%. the second part is horribly wrong. devs simply DO NOT BALANCE early areas based on high level gear/characters. tabula rasa exists and is OP. does GGG balance the early game around players having tabula rasa? no, they dont. you breeze thru content with it. similarly in settlers you can enchant a level 1 swords granting players with lvl 15 envy. for reference a level 1 sword does what? 15 average damage while lvl 15 envy does ONE FUCKING HUNDRED chaos damage!
thus i keep saying knowing the history behind leagues is important and i keep mentioning how leagues are used also as a beta test allowing the devs to decide whether or not its suitable to be added to core. thus there is ZERO reason to balance it around level 100 characters nor mirror tier gear.
also think about it logically. would it be better to balance the game around low to upper mid tier gearing vs the very top? players must feel rewarded for their godlike gear. so the devs usually dont give a damn about that upper level unless its super over performing.
and if we’re being real, do you even play POE leagues? are you aware that GGG tends to overtune all league content even at level 1 so that newer players already have a bad time?
i did play in beyond league just to farm up 1 c to buy an edge of madness coz i liked the skin. beyond league had double regen rares. MOST PLAYERS streamers included cant do shit to them. so i really cant take your point seriously when you say “oh game devs need to balance league content around end game gear thus newbies will suffer”.
in fact, good devs will balance out their seasonal content based on “expected player power”. mirror tier god like level 100s is definitely not expected player power.
so everything beyond what you first mentioned is not even worth time to consider. unless of course the game devs are idiots and balance ALL content around level 100s with godlike items. i wouldnt want to play such a game with devs doing stupid shit like that to begin with. sounds like a shitty game to me. it sounds more like you trying hard to prove a point rather than anything.
you really dont know how content creators earn revenue do you? they do so by creating content. they play hardcore and play new resets and it gives them an excuse to play longer hours. they of course can just blast content with their level 100 character and call it a day in a mere few minutes. but if they did so they just lost hours worth of content.
on the other hand for regular players. i’ve mentioned it before. if the content is fun/rewarding they will continue playing regardless.
i would say they share roots but poe leagues goes way above and beyond anything d2 ladders ever had. and if we’re talking about d2 ladders i avoided them because theres no permanency. jfyi back in the day if you did not login to you bnet characters, over 90 days, blizzard would help you delete that character. POOF.
if you’re talking about closed testing (omfg i had to google it lol), you’re going in a weird direction.
alpha tester/closed testers do gain an advantage over other players via in game knowledge and experience. but one crucial difference is all their progress and gear are wiped. they lose all access to whatever they previously had. so we all start on the same footing.
i would add. i m rarely jealous of CT’s. these glorious bastards do a lot of heavy lifting trying the game over and over again to ensure the game is good for me. some are paid. its their job. and sometimes the devs would simply wreck their build by rebalancing stuff on the go. thats not exactly playing the game is it? its also why POE2 is on fire. all the idiots overly mad at GGG fail to realize they paid to be game testers.
nope, i just voice my concern and disengage. the moment EHG implements cycles the same as poe, i quit the game. and until i m giving assurance that EHG wont do that, i will vote with my wallet. i’ve already been fucked for over 10 years by GGG. no way i m letting EHG do that to me again. i’ll just pack my bags and uninstall.
i m not against leagues. i am against standard players having no access to league content during new leagues.
currently LE allows players to access league content on standard. which is exactly what i want.
but the problem is they plan to do it the same as POE in the future. leagues and seasons are good i always want them. but i just dont want to start from scratch over and over again. simple as that.
No, I was replying to you suggesting that getting rid (EDIT: embarassing typo) of seasonal realm and keeping only the legacy realm would mean everyone would still play.
In this part of the discussion, that’s not what you were saying, though. Or at least, that’s not what I understood. You were saying that if we have the current PoE model (which isn’t the one I would adopt, as previously mentioned), players like you stop playing. And that if we have only legacy everyone would still play.
Plus, there are downsides even if you just release content for both. Already discussed plenty. Basically, there stops being any urgency. You don’t need to play on day 1. You don’t even need to play this league. It will still be there.
Legacy/standard players are, by their very nature, inconsistent. They will stick around for a month or two, then they will stop playing for a month or two or 6. They are mostly comprised of people with limited time available to play.
So if legacy makes the majority of your players, you don’t have a consistent playerbase. You can have a bunch of players now, only to have half that number in the next day or twice that many because some are on vacation.
Again, I like how LE currently is. But that is because I don’t have much time to play. I play a few days every now and then. I don’t contibute to the season start peaks because often I’m busy and can’t start playing that day.
I’m part of the loyal fanbase, but not of the consistent fanbase. And while a game like LE definitely needs loyal fans, they need consistent ones even more. Because servers are very expensive to keep up. And keeping up a bunch of servers for players that might or might not be playing at any given day is a huge overhead.
Seasonal players are more predictable and you don’t “waste” so many servers on them.
I think you misundertood my point. I’m not talking about gear balance. I’m talking about retention only.
Currently, a new seasonal mechanic is balanced around having to start with a new character on a fresh economy. Meaning that there is a certain timeframe that most players are expected to spend to be able to reach the end of the mechanic being introduced.
But, if you only have legacy, or if you have both at the same time and the vast majority is in legacy (which they will, cause path of least attrition), then you need to make that new content challenging enough for a level 100 gigachad character.
The content that takes 2 weeks for a new character to complete will only require 2 days for your legacy one to complete. So you need to make it so that the new content will take 2 weeks for your legacy character to complete, which means that any new player that joins will require months to get there.
And it will just keep escalating with each new season.
Just look at D4. Blasters like Rax only cover the game for a couple of days, even though it’s the game that brings them the most followers.
And that is because the game is extremely boring for a blaster. You finish the content very fast and there’s nothing left to do.
So even though they could milk it for several days, they don’t. Because it’s boring.
On some things, yes. On the other hand, ladder only content NEVER went to non-ladder. You could never ever access it. At least PoE sent most of the seasonal stuff to standard.
Only they can have the data on how many players return and play legacy and for how long they stay. I’m sure they will act on it.
Given all my years of experience on these games, I’d say that the players that keep playing the longest at a season launch are seasonal players.
And that most of the players that start on day 1 are seasonal players.
Because, as I mentioned, legacy players, by their very nature, have limited time and thus aren’t oftenly consistent with their playtimes vs a seasonal player.
if its like the current poe model players like me would quit. that is correct.
if we only have legacy everyone would play? no what i want is as stated. what i really want is simply both resetters and legacy enjoyers to be able to access seasonal content at the same time. simple as that.
correct for legacy players. false for resetters. some resetters want to claim the “first” achievements. first person to kill abaroth etc. some resetters want to manipulate the market hence they will play as much as possible as soon as possible. content creators would want to play a fresh reset character for content. and lets not forget actual reset enjoyers who enjoy resets would play resets on day one.
true, but at the same time, how confident are you to say that the reason the numbers are so low now is not because theyre treated as 2nd class citizens? i know for a fact i m done with being treated this way and would just stop playing if EHG starts doing poe leagues. you dont have the numbers neither do i. but i m pretty confident that i m not alone.
why do you think they stop playing? for myself i can give some reasons. i see some cool new content. and i have to wait for months for it to drop onto standard. why do i need to wait? its also why i didnt get monster hunter world on release. the console versions came out much earlier and capcom deliberately delayed all downloadable quests which put pc players literally months behind the console content. i only got the game on discount and once they caught up to all the quests. it feels bad to be locked out of content. also theres no real reason to come back too much when everytime you return you’re reminded that the game isnt meant for you.
also while we’re at it. does that mean resetters are any better? there are many resetters in poe that play just to get 40/40 asap and quit the game. within 2-3 weeks. thats a ridiculously low amount of time and even if we assume they do this 4 times a year that amounts to 12 weeks max. thats roughly 3 months. back when i was into poe i would play almost daily regardless of league content on standard. and i played for a god damn long time but i enjoyed it. jumping into leagues was what made me learn to hate poe and eventually stop playing altogether.
some resetters are exactly like what you say. just there to see the content then they quit. thats similarly 2-3 weeks too? not really too much of a difference with a standard player eh?
me too, but then again its because LE is exactly how i want it. i will not be resetting in the next season.
why not both? it goes back to that question. if we’re talking consistant. i am not only loyal, not only consistant i m DEDICATED. if i weren’t i wouldnt have been playing poe for 10 years. so how did GGG reward me for my dedication? they treated me like a 2nd class citizen since the very beginning. there are other passionate players like me and the way you’re painting it is as tho resetters are the only consistent ones. i ll be honest. i take great offense that you downplay other gamer’s dedication this way. there are many people who played poe for years exactly how i did, dropping into leagues to gain more power, returning to standard. its a never ending cycle of repeating a process that we hate. many want to love the game but since our dedication is being repaid by us having to suffer for the sake of resetters. fuck that. we’re out.
correct that is how seasonal content is balanced
erm… says who? who told you that devs need to do that as a compulsory step? that would make an imbalance exactly like what you said. it escalates every season. you already identified it as a problem. so what do we do? dont do it. thats such an easy solution. dont make content for the level 100 gigachads.
when you mention that, you have to realize you’re actually proposing exclusive content meant for legacy players. i dont want that for resetters and i never asked for additional challenge. thats you projecting some made up rule. i get what you’re saying but dude. just dont implement that rule and its suddenly fine? you made up an issue that can be solved by simply not implementing the issue to begin with.
then you’re saying that streamers dont even play the game for more than a few days despite reseting. so why even bring them up? you talk so much about player retention and you’re making my points for me.
and it created a very big divide where non ladder players who wanted permanency never engaged in ladder content. and its to the point that non ladder players effectively tune out of ladder announcements entirely.
modern diablolike seasons encourage standard players to at least take a look and make them consider should they jump in to bring back goodies to standard. as well as offer interesting game mechanics and even full fledged npcs. diablo 2 ladders look like a worm while poe leagues are gigachad snakes or even dragons. its multitudes better.
debatable but a reasonable speculation. i m a legacy enjoyer but i have jumped into seasons to get powerful gear. i played many seasons to its entirety. does that make me a seasonal player or legacy? lol. its really hard to gauge. also as i mentioned. achievement chasers exist. theyre in and out in a quick jiffy. in my experience a lot of season player leave after the first few weeks. this claim can be backed up by reviewing steam charts.
and this is exactly why i want what i want. if i get what i want, i have more reason to come back every new season release. if i dont get what i want. why should i even return? even when the seasonal content finally makes it on legacy, all it does is serve to remind me that this game does not cater to my needs.
What the heck are you on about?
First of all @Llama8 said exactly what EHG is planning, what EHG stated personally and what’s the industry standard for the genre.
Secondly, time-exclusive content is no new concept and exists for a reason, giving a incentive for players which would otherwise not return as the combined part of ‘new content’ as well as the ‘fresh economy’ combined causes them to get enough motivation to restart the game again. Something which doesn’t always happen if the content isn’t exclusively tied up for a time.
Thirdly, time exclusive content doesn’t mean mandatory shifting out. That’s a bad business practive from the side of GGG simply and nothing else. Proper design of content allows full scale implementation after it shifts into the permanent league.
So stop bothering twisting things awkwardly. Gymnastics are to be kept for a workout, not for mental ones in a forum.
Isn’t even part of the discussion and also not true.
Nobody argues against players of the permanent cycle having access to all content… after a time it’s provided exclusively. You get access, just later, doesn’t have anything to do with scale or completition of it being transfered.
Understand and accept: Legacy is filled with a miniscule portion of the players. Don’t behave in a way which ruins your own standing.
You’ll have to accept that players of the permanent cycle are the minority. And the best way to ensure you don’t get your stuff properly handled is by becoming unlikable, that’s a prime recipe to get a minority stomped into the ground.
And as a Legacy player I would enjoy getting proper content without antagonizing a good 70% of the playerbase which ultimately enforces the developers to take a stance to purely focus on the group otherwise annoyed.
They actually do, because it’s the biggest incentive and the lifeline of pure shelf-price or f2p live-service games. Know the type of game you’re playing at least and how the business model works… and why it is set up in such a specific way…
Yeah, clearly we’re bothered by ourselves.
This ladies and gentlemen… is a clown
Who says you can’t play your character?
Is your enjoyment solely bound on getting new content on day 1? Why is it an issue to wait and be exactly 1 season apart from the temporary cycles? Content will be delivered to you in the same pace after all… once per cycle, just shifted ‘one away’ from the temporary one.
Never got this issue. And yes, I agree… not having time exclusive content would be better… but that only works if it’s mandated by law as it’s a very strong psychological argument for a person to start off specifically at that time… so companies need to work around how the human brain works and market accordingly.
You know why? Because if you don’t do it but the competition does you fail, simple as that.
I agree, albeit on the premise that any actually ‘seasonal content’ (Meaning it isn’t kept 100% after) is a general plague on videogames… or overall.
It makes sense in a real world example when things simply can only be done at a specific time of the year… but in a digital environment it’s a outdated - but very mentally effective - system.
It provides no upsides for the customers and is a pure marketing mechanic based on FOMO. And FOMO shouldn’t be a deciding factor for the success of something.
Mind you… that only counts for anything that ‘goes away’. Different times of implementation in different leagues is a viable option. I’m meantioning the aspect of ‘persistence’ for a reason here.
First of all… it’s 10% of players in PoE despite it being such a severe downside in quality with how they handle it, only providing little fractions of what was once a great mechanic.
Now… infer how high the percentile would be with a 100% implementation, every time, without fail.
Vastly higher.
So context matters a lot.
I don’t… other Legacy players generally also don’t… it’s clearly understood that with a level 100 fully outfitted character a new boss will obviously drop in a heartbeat, kinda a given.
If I want to experience it from a ‘progression’ position I load up one of the true offline characters I saved for that reason, set up close to end-game and hence giving me the option to see how it interacts with a character ‘just reaching’ said content EHG implements. ‘How hard is it actually? Is it engaging? Is it fitting for the position it’s implemented in?’ is all possible to infer this way.
You know, like someone who thinks a little and is not mindlessly consuming content but actually enjoying the design going into it. Which is why I nitpick a ton about design as well, design for me is the alpha and the omega of a game basically, even if it’s not designed for me… as long as it’s well designed.
FOMO only happens with the chance to ‘miss out’.
Friends playing and you can only play together then? FOMO.
Nobody you know playing and it comes ‘anyway’? No FOMO.
It’s a big difference, our brains are just so heavily trained on FOMO stuff nowadays that even when there’s actually nothing to ‘miss’ we get agitated and panicked.
It was also vastly more powerful though compared to the current implementation which is… limited by a lot.
Which I still see as a massive problem from the side of GGG. Either implement content properly… or remove unavailable things created through said content. No middle ground, it’s a disaster otherwise as it causes exactly what you say: Forcing Standard players into seasons to accumulate value despite not wanting to re-do the progression.
And yes, that’s bad, but that’s on GGG, not a universal thing mandated.
If there’s a mechanic which gets phased out and you ‘missed out on experiencing it’ then yeah, not fun… but ‘eh’ if nothing was derived from it. But if others get rewarded permanently for going into that temporary grind while leaving permanent league players out… then that’s the issue there.
That’s why management of content and transfer of value is darn important.
Value should only be transfered for things which are still obtainable after, simple as that. Then permanent cycle players will have no issue with it.
Otherwise… FOMO, for good reason. And that makes one stop playing after a while.
There’s a reason why Standard in PoE is so underdeveloped by now, because ‘yes’, people primarily played Standard but it shifted. Why? Because at first temporary league mechanics became simply ‘more grand’ and hence it allowed together with already pre-existing content more then enough engagement to keep people enjoyed… and secondly GGG started to ‘dismantle’ their own mechanics heavily over time. That is an issue.
Proper design and planning beforehand to ensure it can be put into the ‘core gameplay’ afterwards is basically mandatory to upkeep a healthy permanent league playerbase, otherwise you get people leaving because they won’t put up with feeling forced into something despite hating that playstyle… because they won’t get rewarded for their time.
Agreed, but that’s why the proper compromise is so important between both.
And that’s extremely valuable feedback actually. What you’re arguing against there is a boon… not a detriment.
A player in a permanent cycle can infer much better in what state a mechanic is compared to others… simply because more time to see the detailed differences is at hand. This means proper placing of mechanics can be done easier by the developers and that also makes for a more enjoyable experience for those in a temporary cycle. Balance is a positive.
2 viable options there:
-Mechanic is good: Add it, simple as that.
-Mechanic is bad: Remove it or ‘curate’ it, remove all unavailable rewards derived from it permanently.
GGG doesn’t uphold those 2 options up there, that’s why the perception is like crap for ‘Standard players’… and reasonably so.
Because also balance.
A bad mechanic can cause the feeling of ‘tedium’ and also causes content bloat. Choice paralysis is a real thing and important to manage, proper implementation and setup is hence mandatory.
In a game which inherently attracts hoarders like me?
Yes… yes you are
I also play games for the fun itself… but things like ‘see what I collected!’ is even more fun in my brain simply, to a massive degree even. So that’s more valuable even then the direct fun at times, a good reward sometimes even allowing me to do very un-fun things just to have it at the end and enjoy it in my collection.
That’s the ‘exclusivity’ which I find problematic actually.
Having content time exclusive (that means it comes over or when not fully properly curated and the unobtainable rewards also removed, permanently) is fine, you don’t ‘miss out’, you just have to wait a bit. More then enough reasoning to do it earlier but not ‘forcing you’ like for example Crucible does.
Because why did you play Crucible despite hating re-grinding? Because that shit can happen, great stuff locked for you permanently because ‘you weren’t there’. And that also goes for MTX.
I understand valuing people for coming in EA or backing a game. Proper rewards to them as a thanks, all fine! It was after all to allow the game to even came into existence properly.
But beyond? Bad business practive in my eyes, predatory even as it caters to a psychological aspect of our brain which likes to let us give up on important things to use the time for something unimportant… simply because ‘otherwise it’s gone’.
That’s the part I understand fully though! Incentive.
And incentive stacks up.
There’s incentive for a new economy… but for some it’s not enough.
There’s incentive to experience new content… but for some that alone is also not enough.
Combine it and it is.
That’s the core reason and fully understandable. It provides no downside for a Legacy player if people can get access to content they can’t… but will with guarantee after a waiting period.
That’s a important thing to mention repeatedly.
That’s where supporter packs come into play.
If we say… 1 out of 10 people pay for one then we can also infer the value brought by returning players.
If 20k players play Legacy that would mean 2k sales, even with a 20€ supporter pack that would be 40k revenue (not profit)… which is actually decent.
And the 1 in 10 is very low, especially when we provide only low-value supporter packs. We don’t take into consideration growing MTX pools.
Which is also a baffling thing as timed supporter packs which are shifted out are a long-term detriment. Imagine someone seeing ‘woah, this stuff’s great! I wanna get it!’ and then seeing it’s gone. Puts a massive dampener on motivation. Not the first time I quite a game because I couldn’t get the stuff I want anymore simply because I wasn’t there at that specific day for work, being sick, not at home or whatever else.
And I don’t think I’m a exclusive case for that.
Which - plainly spoken - should be the norm, not the exception.
And if not then respective measures are mandatory to do… which GGG simply fails to, the biggest downside is their league management in my eyes.
Not only.
But yes, that’s how the brain works commonly. New is novel, new is fun. Even sub-par new tends to enjoy the brain more then old decent things.
It’s a big big thing in how you present content, that’s why providing everything at once isn’t good (overwhelms the brain) but also only providing the same repeating pattern is bad (underwhelms the brain). Also the limit for both is different person to person.
It’s to capture a bigger audience. Games need to make profit, profit needs a substantial amount of people, hence all the tricks in the book are used to capture the audience. It’s why shit-stains like the ramake of Warcraft 3 did well in sales despite being a disaster. PR, urge to be the first one there, no patience to experience new things, brand recognition and hence ‘safety’ in it and so on and so forth. All that plays together to make it a ‘successful product’ despite being sub-par compared to the original.
Not revenue wise and hence not in terms of ability for the developers to actually develop the game. More money = more devs = bigger possible scope.
Without taking into consideration bad managment.
Because the setup for progression in LE is sub-par. I can only point to PoE 2 0.1 campaign. Good gameplay besides itemization. With itemization through proper drops/mechanics it would’ve been chef’s kiss plainly spoken.
In comparison the LE campaign is just a lackluster ‘run from point A to B’ thing that has a completely whacky difficulty curve making it not enjoyable hence. Also a very hefty lack of skill setup by that time which makes builds very simplistic… something which PoE 2 also doesn’t have as your end-game build style is achieved very early on, allowing you to get the ‘full experience’ gameplay wise hence despite the substantially slow campaign.
100% agreed.
Also 100% agreed again.
Here’s the list:
Legacy
Beastiary
Synthesis
Harvest
Ultimatum (it got returned but extremely neutered)
Lake of Kalandra (extremely rare outcome now, never seen a single actual manual craft since then)
Affliction
Crucible
Ancestors
Necropolis (The crafting during that was piss-easy, making players miss out heavily).
That’s a substantial amount of heavily reduced/changed mechanics not offering even remotely the old value or outright removing the ability to get items otherwise not obtainable. Crucible is the worst of em.
As for Settlers of Kalgur? We also know already that the enchant option is supposed to go… which is kinda shit too.
They actually are, there’s been studies about that. Local players pay more money overall then ‘tourists’.
But that’s kinda a given. Not hard to imagine.
You can, 30% is now drop-only though.
Which was one of the dumbest things GGG changed. Perfect fossils were fine as they were, that change heavily influenced the value of divination cards for the top end. No more great bases since they’re capped at 20% now unless you corrupt em and make em 29%
Heya, one of those players here! Switched over to Standard and wanting to have LE bash PoE out of the market for that specific reason basically… since it’s such a hefty detriment for my perception that I can’t enjoy the game even to a fraction of before… despite still enjoying it.
Which is the fault of EHGs damn awful implementation of MG though, not a inherent issue Otherwise in PoE it would be the same… but it isn’t. ‘But everything’s so expensive there!’ is the guaranteed comment coming up… so I’m taking that away immediately: Yes, but the consumables you farm - outside of pure currency - are also relative in value to that, counteracting it completely.
We gotta be fair there though.
One takes a little planning beforehand.
The other is a literal balancing hell with massive effort invested.
GGG does a different sale every weekend, not only the first week. Every 2 weeks is a guaranteed stash tab sale for example. Since years now.
It’s also good for people in any other social playing environment rather then being full solo.
And it’s also good for competitive people.
It’s also simply good for solo players which still measure themselves in some way with others (which is common practice actually).
So it’s a bit of a problem there since the exclusive content actually has a lot of meaning overall… which is why the best solution is likely for it to be timed exclusive with guarantee to go core.
If the guarantee is there I don’t mind.
My personal stance for that.
Don’t have that in LE, it’s not the same.
And no, towns don’t count, you basically just see some random dude and don’t compare yourself. You just go ‘Yeah, that looks nice’ and buy it, which is the reason why towns show other players. But that’s a vastly milder method then Fortnite for example.
Luckily on the list in the EU to be illegal soon-ish. With high hopes for it. There was a official document coming out - not forced fully into law but currently a gray area hence - which cleared up the decisions on what ‘lawful practices’ are. Related especially to said premium currency, like a enforced showcase how much value those have + enforcing to buy any amount you want freely as well as showcasing the exchanged value of anything you can buy with said premium to always have a comparison.
Quite the contrary actually… given that those people experience it first you’re the first class… because they get to experience all the crappy broken stuff which is fixed during the timeframe of the cycle, and you? You get the shiny, polished, premium version at the end.
And while you wait you ensure to have the funds or the setup character wise to make the best of said new content then.
Yes, still have to wait… but it’s the least worrysome solution for both sides nonetheless.
To be fair… that’s how it generally should be. Look at the implementations.
The web-related things? Definitely something where characters with 1k hours can profit of!
As for PoE? Delve? Absolutely, Heist, absolutely, Synthesis, absolutely, crucible, damn absolutely… the majority is always providing something ‘unique’ only acquired there.
This ensures that no matter the play-time you can gain something valuable from there.
That’s how proper content is implemented anyway already, otherwise a live-service company simply screwed up because it competes against their other systems directly… which is detrimental to retention and depth of a game.
Devs balance related to progression. The top end has to be taken into consideration to be enjoyable to play towards but the progression is to be seen as a separate thing. Progression first, then focus on absolute top-end.
100% agreed as well.
You can even get screwed when promises are made… but it’s at least less likely.
While hearing ‘temporary cycle content is a nice thing’ EHG won’t get a cent from me for their stuff… I don’t know how their implementation will look like so I worry that I loose interest the second it happens.
If ensured though my wallet is open widely for supporter packs (the ones this cycle look nice actually!), otherwise… why? Why should I pay a company which voiced something which will likely make me stop playing since it’s just a repetition of what I have in PoE?
And since PoE ticks more boxes for me (crafting and itemization progression) why should I then play on LE?
Wah?.. That’s… kinda bogus actually.
Standard players are not without reason called ‘forever players’. Before GGG screwed over Standard players entirely with their darn awful issues like map tabs needing thousands of clicks every 4 months to fix up you also could see a good amount of Standard players which focused on min-maxing their characters to oblivion… non-stop… because that’s what it takes to do such a thing.
Obviously those are only a fraction of the playerbase… but that fraction also pays thousands to the game rather then… 50… maybe…
That’s because there is literally ‘nothing to do’. No goals to work towards, no build variety to showcase… the game is ‘shallow’.
PoE for example is not.
LE is working towards not being that way too, needs balance passes (massive ones) to achieve it though.
Also implementations like the web do a LOT to ensure long-term engagement. Add 3-4 more of that type overall and you’re golden basically, 2-3 years of progression content for a character to the absolute top-end potentially.
Now it just needs to get more deterministic in terms of progression along the way rather then pure gambling and it’s something which people can also stomach to do rather then stopping as their dopamine hits aren’t coming… besides some serious gambling addicts.
The issue is: No, not always, and no, not having access outside the ladder for it.
In D2 you had access fully if changes came. That’s the difference which is important there.
Cycle and Legacy need to have the same chances, not necessarily at the same time… but the same options to achieve things. Otherwise one is simply worse then the other.
