I’ve “tested” all classes and masterclasses that are available at this time and the rogue is the only one that feels too squishy.
He lacks decent AoE as the only two sources are explosive arrows and multishot (not to forget hail of arrows). However, arrows have a rather “thin” hitbox and hence miss often. Also explosive arrows require to hit the same target twice to trigger the explosion and, in the heat of a battle, this is often not possible. Moreover, the explosion area is too small as mobs often do not pile up that close and if, the second arrow hit becomes even more difficult to execute.
In addition, it is the only class who has no resistance node available in the passive tree (except the elemental arrows). Consequently, any resistance has to come from affixes and idols which is a strong disadvantage compared to other classes.
Hence my suggestion to add some resistance node in the rogue’s passive tree and increase the hitbox of arrows.
I don’t really agree, but I’m not a huge Rogue player.
I’d like to have @TriKster’s opinion here, if he’s available.
You’re right, Rogue has less access to resistances (except poison). But she has Glancing Blow and a great access to Dodge, which can also be strong advantages (even if I don’t like RNG defenses like Dodge). Rogue is not a girl of toughness, she’s a girl ov evasion. She escapes damage. That’s why she has Glancing Blow and Dodge, why she has skills like Smoke Bomb or Decoy for example.
On YouTube I saw several tanky builds for her, but I think most were in fact for Bladedancer, and you speak more about Marksman. Let’s see what some Rogue players can tell to help.
I’m with @Shtrak on this one, I disagree. I’ve played Rogues quite a bit and the Multishot is a great AOE, I take out large groups of mobs fast with it.
It has been harder to build up the resistances but as Shtrak said, she has Dodge and this has been a great mainstay of her survivability.
But we are talking about Rogue in general? Not only marksman?
Because Blade Dancer has screenwide clear and Aoe, with Shadow Cascade and Shadows.
Lethal Mirage and Decoy are also really good Aoe clearing tools.
There are several ways to build Detonating Arrow and you literally can make it screen wide AoE(this is not an exaggeration)
Last Epoch is not about capping resistances…
There are about half a dozen other defensive layers.
Rogue also has a bit poison resistance.
But both Dodge and glancing blow are already incredible defensive layers.
It would be boring if every class has access to everything, so having classes with different strengths and weaknesses is totally fine.
Overall Rogue is not necessarily squishier than other classes, but all it’s defenses are just RNG based, so you definitely want to build a strong HP pool and critical strike avoidance to avoid those incoming one-shots.
Regarding the hit boxes of certain arrows, I think EHG is aware of this and is trying to improve aiming and hit boxes.
A wild TriKster appears…
Well first we have to seperate Bladedancer and Marksman because OP is talking about rogue. Bladedancer in its current state is still absolutely op with so many mechanics, especially offensive interactions. When we are talking about marksman i would not say that she lacks aoe since you alrdy mentioned detonating arrow, HoA and Multishot. To be honest, those are all the marksman exclusive skills (except Dark Quiver which functions as a support skill). So basically Multi and HoA are almost one of the best aoe skills in the game imo. If we talk about the base rogue skills considered being a bow attack (cinder, puncture, flurry) i can agree that they are not BiS aoe skill. But should probably also not function as aoe skills, more like Single target, mana regenerators, buffer mechanics etc. for the Marksman exclusive skills.
Talking about Marksman being too squishy…well i would say its one of the only classes that is balanced pretty good so far. I have never seen a marksman build reaching absurd nummers of waves in arena. Highest being tunks HoA and Lizard Bowmage which are mechanically really cool and unique builds that will hopefully not get nerfed. With normal Crit DA and Multishot you can also reach 300+, 400+ arena waves which is a good number imo. I dont wanna play several hours to reach wave 1000. Thats why i think the balance is good.
As Shtrak said, she is not a girl of toughness, the class identity is all around a sneaky, strong offensively, more squishy playstyle. So you usually should not expect her to be as tanky as sentinel.
What i like most about Rogue is, that you can really see who is a good player in arena. You really need to be a skilled player to bring her to high waves in arena because she is more squishy than other classes. You need to aim good (for no homing DA) you need to time everything well (for tunks hoa). Its a very skilled based class which i really like. The only thing i wish marksman will get more love is for ailment builds. In general ailments need a rework imo.
But i like the fact that she is squishy, she alrdy has the advantage of being a range character that can oneshot everything with high crits. So you have to work hard with her and get to know her playstyle.
Also, what my alternate personality forgot to mention, you have some great defensive mechanics you can/should use:
Smoke Bomb for
Silver Shroud (100% dodge + ward)
Dusk Shroud (Glancing Blow)
Blind
Slow
Shift for
Mobility (actively evading hits)
Heal
Decoy for
Taunting enemies (soooooo strong currently!!!)
You have passives for Silver/Dusk Shroud and GB, too. Dodge, besides being a bit unreliable, is a very strong mechanic if stacked.
You need to try to always have a stack of Silver Shroud active, that will protect you from killing blows.
Move and don’t get hit.
It’s a very different playstyle compared to the other classes. But once you get used to, it’s really fun and rewarding.
Imho this makes the Marksman a mastery that can survive lategame even with suboptimal defensive gear. While I personally struggle sometime with my Sentinels - getting cought in a Situation where you can just prey your damage mitigation is high enough to survive long enough to kill your opponents - I feel less squishy with my Marksman, having a way out of tough situations.
The kiting potential of Marksman is great.
Saying all this, I get where you are coming from. At first sight Rogue defenses look weak. If you don’t adapt to the playstyle, you won’t be happy.
because of Rogues high Dodge and Glancing blow, you can easily half every incoming hit and also dodge around 50% of attacks. When this gets combined with resists it makes the vast majority of attack do little damage,
Keep in mind sentinels high Armor is actually kind of similar to rogue grancing blow
Sentinel has a lot of HP and resistances in his passive tree so you can get to the cap using less suffix slots than a Marksman in comparison. So Sentinel can use this for additional layers of defense like block, endurance etc… Sentinel also has additional mechanics like less damage taken from nearby enemies. And he has access to Crit Aviodance and Endurance in the passive tree (pala mastery specific).
You can’t build a facetanking Marksman, imho. She is a lot squishier than any other class. But she has abilities to counter this with an (re-) active playstyle.
Step 1: Don’t get hit
Step 2: You will get hit so you need to be able to survive 1, maybe 2 hits in a row
Step 3: Don’t get hit, until you have recovered from that 1 hit that almost killed you
I do understand the philosphy behind the rogue class and my intention is not to change that. At the moment I cannot see the “screen wide AoE” as Heavy mentioned but maybe BroncoCollider is right and my base build is not right. I’ll look into that, thanks.
“Not getting hit” is sometime not so easy, in particular if your combat area is restricted (like charging the beacon) and loads of mobs are squeezed in a tight space with you doing ranged and aoe attacks. As it has been said already, most (if not all) defensive options are RNG based and getting 100% (or close to it) crit avoidance is a matter of balancing with resistances on gear and idols.
Heavy’s remark about EHG are trying to improve the arrows aim and hitbox is very good news. I’m looking forward to 8.3 hoping that this will be implemented.
I feel you! Beacon Echoes are the worst for Marksman, because you have to stay in the circle.
But 100% crit avoidance is kind of mandatory at some point.
The “dodge rating on potion use” affixes on belts or the Rogue specific “dodge rating when hit recently” help a lot. Also the Silver shroud’s Ward boost (about 1k if maxed in the passive) can be a life saver.
Edit: Did you try decoy? It has a very high range and will pull aggro away from you very effectively. It can have a very high uptime with cooldown recovery/charges (skilltree and helmet)
The “screen wide” Aoe of DA is definitely a very specific build, where you combine a lot of area increases together.
DA has multiple increased area and more area nodes in it’s skill tree, marksman has a passive with more area, black arrows from dark quiver can also buff DA’s area even further and then you also have idols with increased area for DA.
You are not forced to combine literally All of them, but getting a few of those sources, can make DA’s damage projection a lot better already.
But DA is definitely not the only source of good Aoe for Marksman.
(except Dark Quiver which functions as a support skill). So basically Multi and HoA are almost one of the best aoe skills in the game imo. If we talk about the base rogue skills considered being a bow attack (cinder, puncture, flurry) i can agree that they are not BiS aoe skill. But should probably also not function as aoe skills, more like Single target, mana regenerators, buffer mechanics etc. for the Marksman exclusive skills.
