Except in PoE there’s only a few (IE: 1 or 2 builds) each season that are actually playable. PoE gives the illusion of choice but in reality it has very little choices to give. Especially that absurdly large tree of skills to pick from that are 90% worthless.
Nice hyperbole you’ve got there, I would politely suggest that that kind of attitude is part of PoE’s problem (not all of it, obviously, “balance” is part of it as well). The attitude that a game should be approached as work, and that if you’re not taking the most optimal/optimised path (or Mathil’s builds) then you’re somehow wasting time, or a noob for not knowing, or for not having the best gear, or for wanting to play a different build/way/etc. And there’s the (IMO) toxic (for the community) viewpoint that focuses in so hard on differences of a fraction of a percent & declares the skill with the smaller figure garbage. It reminds me of when I raided in SWTOR & some groups wanted to only take people through a story mode raid if they had gear that dropped in the hard mode or nightmare mode…
Edit: That said, there is room for more than one way to play a game & “my” way is just as valid as the one I’m decrying…
I disagree with you.
First we are not talking about expensive or free respec on that special thread. We are talking about instantly swapping premade loadouts depending on content or group constellation in mp games.
This possibility kills build identity. Bause you dont play a certain build anymore. You hotswap to what is needed.
Second, the respec of skills actually is completely free. You can respec and despecialise as often as you like without any costs. The only thing is a bit of time investment for releveling the skill. But is it really that huge?
If you respec a skill completely at lvl 65, you go into monolith and do a run to relevel the skill. After the run your skill is around lvl 15 maybe higher. All buildchanging nodes are accessible at that skill level. The last few skills add only stat improvement in most cases. During the run, if you invest your skillpoints as you relevel you also get a feeling about how/if the new spec works.
If you get all skillpoints refunded you put them into the new spec and do what? - A monolith run to test it. Maybe you also save some points to test first if a certain route feels viable.
So the time spent to experiment with a new skill is roughly the same.
All the complaints that respec is to hard come from early to midgame. And in this case they are absolutely correct.
But the general complaint that you can’t experiment in LE is not true. Because it gets more and more easy the further you progress.
And it also pushes people to play the game. If you can’t test all the possible builds of a sub class on day one, you need to come back on day two.
You can’t say generally that people would only use guides (is using a guide a bad thing, btw?) when respec is harder. People that dont have much time to play may be less motivated to experiment with new builds anyways, no matter how easy it is to respec.
There are so many different mindsets that it is not possible for me to say what will happen.
Some people appreciate it more when they have to earn their loot. Others are happy when its gifted to them.
There’s no right or wrong. Just different opinions and a developer inbetween that has to find a balance or good compromise.
To get back to the hotswap topic:
I am open for any good suggestions to encourage experimenting. But being able to instantly swap between loadouts or builds without any drawback is a different pair of shoes. This should not be possible. Because this has a really huge impact in making your build decisions (after experimenting) absolutely meaningless.
2 Likes
Now that I’m going to have to pedantically disagree with you quite strenuously, time can be quite a significant cost. If it weren’t “free to play” games wouldn’t rake in so much cash selling ways around the time sinks they deliberately put in!
I can imagine that exact sentence said by the devs/publishers of said “free to play” games…
Not sure if serious.
I am not a seasonal/league player in PoE. I have 20+ characters all of which I consider on-going and have been working on for years. All of which get tweaked when new abilities and ideas leak into the main game from leagues. All of which are experimental and fun. And very few of which are “established builds”.
- Yes it is. Time is the most precious commodity of all. Any other currency for a respec would be preferable.
- It is during levelling when I most want to experiment, which is when the time cost is so very high. It makes a respec during levelling prohibitive.
I have done several Monolith runs now and also some Arenas and my first ever specialised skills are still not even level 20!!! The belief you can quickly level a skill at end game is a nonsense.
I want level 20 not 15.
Given how long I am seeing it has taken my first ever speclised skills to hit 20, I will never, ever respec out of them. I’m trapped.
Disagree. If you have gone more than one general direction in a tree it can very often be the case that the last few nodes or even just the last node, completes the build. Level 15 doesn’t cut it, please stop throwing it up as “everything is fine because” candidate. It takes ages to get to 20, end of story.
Can you provide some example here? From my own experience, if you just put minimum required points into nodes to progress further, by level 15 your skill build should be completed, after this point it’s just increasing power of some other nodes. But again, if you have example, where you actually needs like 18-20 points to complete your skill build, that would be great.
Yes, but if respecing cost some currency that took you an hour to get, as compared to re-levelling that skill for an hour, what’s the difference. You’re right, time is a precious commodity & F2P developers/publishers agree with you.
It’s not nonsense, it depends what level (rank? timeline?) the monoliths are. You’ll get more xp from a 30 timeline monolith than a 1 timeline monolith, or wave 200 in the arena as compared to wave 10.
2 Likes
I mean the main difference is that you can farm respec resources along side of leveling, so when time comes and you want respec, you should have some respec resources in “bank” already. (like in PoE). In LE case, you really can’t bank respec points as you play, thus, it feels much more punishing.
Obvious answer would be some sort of currency, which will either allow you respec without losing levels or maybe some "XP orb, which will instantly gain some amount of XP to your skill. Just some examples.
1 Like
It’s not a belief, it’s a fact. But as said before it depends on your character level. What level is the char you make your runs? I said lvl 65. It was an estimated value. But I have some characters around that level. I’ll note the time I need to relevel completely from 0-20.
I will tell my “everything is fine” opinion as long as there are people that make a game breaking issue out of the respec system.
1 Like
Not even close. After about level 60 (even 50 it isn’t that bad) which most characters should be by the time they end campaign (low 50s now, high 50s low 60s once the entire game and all acts are done is my estimate) getting back to level 20 in a skill is maybe 4 or 5 more levels of your character. Heck in one Arena wave up to level 50 you can be at like 15 or 16 from a straight full out respect.) I’m not even remotely a big time player. I am at endgame. I have a character of every current class between levels 65-80. Several of them I have respeced skills on multiple times. It doesn’t take that long at all.
Now at the beginning of your characters life? Sure it does take longer and probably needs a bit of a tweak but the problem here is someone might take 4 points in a skill, decide they don’t like it because it doesn’t ‘work’ and respec it. Never fully testing out the skill. Fully testing doesn’t mean all the way to 20 per se, but it does mean giving it some shots. I respected my warpath paladin (just the warpath skill alone) three different times trying to figure out how to make it work. didn’t take forever and by the third time I was mid level 70s and I think it took me two arena runs and I was at 18.
I definitely think the skills system ‘works’ as it is now mid-late game. I also definitely think that early game needs some sort of tweak but I’m not even remotely an expert on this.
And can we please tone down hyperbolic comments like this? It’s not constructive, it’s not helpful and it certainly doesn’t convey or earn respect.
2 Likes
My highest level char is my BM. He is level 63. He has run Monlotihs up to about level 20, and Arena up to 50. His Wolf skill, first skill I ever specced into, and have never specced out of, is still level 19. I have yet to see a level 20 skill. See my worry?
Never once said game -breaking. I find it to be:
Anti-creativity
Unfun
Frustrating
Punishing
But not game-breaking.
2 Likes
Okay. But I also read you want skill respecing to be free and unconditional - which will make game much less fun for me so now question is if there is any middle ground for both of us or will this middle ground make us both unhappy.
1 Like
Why? No one is forcing you to respec.
Here we go again. Well, if this is your argument, there is no chance in hell you would get it.
1 Like
I just don’t understand why a free respec would spoil things for you when you are free to not use it.
I want to respec often but cant because it is expensive. You don’t want to re-spec and would be forced to if it was free??? Genuinely confused.
In case there is a genuine reason, how about a “free respec y/n” option when you create your character? Just like there is a hardcore option.
2 Likes
Because perception is important. You could throw any “logical” argument, i did that too with Diablo 3, but it just does not work. You can never respec in Diablo 3 if you want, but this wont change the fact, there are no character builds, just loadouts.
Even PoE does not allow you to respec freely. You need to level up your gems - yes, when you level them up once, you can keep it and try something different, however economy around gems in PoE is different. You want level up your gems twice, which takes a ton of time and I mean ton. Also you are leveling not just 5 gems but much much more. You really can’t compare it, because in case of PoE, there is actually quite a dedication when choosing gems for your build.
When I feel my choice is just not important, I will lose interest very fast - for me meaningful choice is still bread and butter of RPG games, no matter if it is ARPG or CRPG.
1 Like
Fine. So as I said, how about a “Free re-specs” option set when you create your character? Then we both win. If player sets it to yes, skills never lose level. If player sets to no, things are are as they are now. You could even include a 3rd option where no respeccing whatsoever is allowed as I know there are some players like to play that way too.
I mean I don’t play hardcore but the existence of the Hardcore option and the thought that others are playing hardcore doesn’t bother me, any more than me playing softcore or the very existence of a softcore option bothers them. Nor should it.
And how would you handle online play? Would free respec characters play together with non-free respec? Meta will be very different in these two cases so I am not sure.
In single player, yea, why not, I could not care less, Also I am pretty sure there will be some mods for free respec in no time for single player so it’s not like it will be issue, but for multiplayer part, fragmentic community between seasons, hardcore and softcore, free respec and not…it feels a bit too much.
Also balancing game around two metas is also a bit problem.
So my “counter-offer” - what about respec orbs like in PoE. Some random drops, which will allow you respec skill points without losing levels?
1 Like
Of course. You would not be able to tell, so…solved. Do hardcores mix with softcores? Can you even tell? No idea. I see no issue whatsoever. Why would you even care?