Because perception is important. You could throw any “logical” argument, i did that too with Diablo 3, but it just does not work. You can never respec in Diablo 3 if you want, but this wont change the fact, there are no character builds, just loadouts.
Even PoE does not allow you to respec freely. You need to level up your gems - yes, when you level them up once, you can keep it and try something different, however economy around gems in PoE is different. You want level up your gems twice, which takes a ton of time and I mean ton. Also you are leveling not just 5 gems but much much more. You really can’t compare it, because in case of PoE, there is actually quite a dedication when choosing gems for your build.
When I feel my choice is just not important, I will lose interest very fast - for me meaningful choice is still bread and butter of RPG games, no matter if it is ARPG or CRPG.
Fine. So as I said, how about a “Free re-specs” option set when you create your character? Then we both win. If player sets it to yes, skills never lose level. If player sets to no, things are are as they are now. You could even include a 3rd option where no respeccing whatsoever is allowed as I know there are some players like to play that way too.
I mean I don’t play hardcore but the existence of the Hardcore option and the thought that others are playing hardcore doesn’t bother me, any more than me playing softcore or the very existence of a softcore option bothers them. Nor should it.
And how would you handle online play? Would free respec characters play together with non-free respec? Meta will be very different in these two cases so I am not sure.
In single player, yea, why not, I could not care less, Also I am pretty sure there will be some mods for free respec in no time for single player so it’s not like it will be issue, but for multiplayer part, fragmentic community between seasons, hardcore and softcore, free respec and not…it feels a bit too much.
Also balancing game around two metas is also a bit problem.
So my “counter-offer” - what about respec orbs like in PoE. Some random drops, which will allow you respec skill points without losing levels?
Of course. You would not be able to tell, so…solved. Do hardcores mix with softcores? Can you even tell? No idea. I see no issue whatsoever. Why would you even care?
Of course you can. In party it will be very easy to tell, who will be respecing for encounters. Also tryhards will always look for free respec party, because optimization is the king for them. Not even talking about ladder, which will be completely broken because of this.
Only way how to deal with it is to separate these two communities. You have to handle it as Self found in PoE.
I really understand the core complaint from most people that want “free-respec”, but i think EHG already did something pretty good with 0.7.8, with changing the exp-curve, so early on it takes longer and in mid-/lategame releveling skills gets pretty easy.
Some of you were talking about 50-ish/60-ish chars, which is roughly the point at which you complete the campaign atm.
The exp-cure keeps on increasing and with lvl 70+ or even 80+, which is still something even the most casual players can achieve easily, this “problem” becomes even less.
Releveling a skills from 1-18/19 takes literally a few minutes at that point. Yes the last level from 19 to 20 can get really long, but as many already have stated, that are happy with the current system.
It reallly make the “progression” feel good. At least for me and a lot of other players.
Just knowing that you can freely respec with any downsides, even if one personally don’t wanna do it, would make everything about progression feel less exciting.
I really don’t understand why people find it so punishing to experiment. I mean the game is pretty easy early on. And you get your 2nd and 3rd spec slot pretty early. In that stage of the game you can easily keep 1 “mainskill” and respecc the other 2 skills every few levels and try out something new. As soon as you get your 4th or later the 5th spec slot, this becomes even less of a problem.
You really do not need “all” of your current spec slots to successfully run the campaign.
EHG already implemented a 1 point respec feature, which is fine, for some minor tweaks or if you wanna test specific nodes within a skills tree.
And if you reached somewhat endgame and wanna do really high content, then respeccing might hurt you build for a while, but then again you can do like a few areans or MoF waves to get any skills to 20 within a adequate timeframe.
When the only argument from the “no free respec” camp is that “it would spoil the game for ME because I want MY choices to matter”, consider me unimpressed. No one ever forces you to press that respec button so this argument is null and void. The fact you know the respec is there and free spoils the game? Grow up and stop being selfish.
I have to ask…How do you possibly handle level 70 then? When apparently respecs are genuinely free and instant? Is that where you quit the game because it’s now spoiled? Serious question.
Yea, sure, because you would not respec before arena/amps or boss arenas, not even talking about ladder. For me, it’s mind-boggling you don’t see such a obvious issues.
In what way would you respec before an Arena? Arena is end game you’re going to go in with your best spec.
Even then? So what if I respec before an Arena? Go me. Good players go in prepared.
You’re claiming respeccing IS already free and instant after level 70 so I can already respec before an Arena with the current set up? Surely my optional button is better for you as well as me?
We are just telling you, that changing it into free respec would spoil the game for us, how it is “spoiled” for you now. Only difference is, that we are just making things up and it would not spoil anything for us, because you said so.
Of course we want game to be as fun for us as possible, you want the same. You are still either ignoring what we are saying, or you are just not accepting it and repeating “noone is forcing you” argument. Stop it.
Why are our arguments different? Because I want everyone to have the option and you want no one to have the option. Very very different. Options are good.
Please answer how you are handling level 70 if you say respecs are so easy at that level? Surely all the drawbacks you are citing against my free respec request kick in for you then anyways?
So the game is spoiled for you with free respec, you say, but you’ve not explained WHY it is spoiled? That’s like me saying the game is spoiled for me because the Hardcore options exists,
I already explained it and you ignored it.
I would just lost interest, rolling new character would not be fun. I don’t enjoy, when your choices in RPG are meaningless. That’s the whole reason.
And no, pretending that respec is not here is not a solution, I tried that in Diablo 3.
If you still don’t understand, that’s okay. Just accept it.
I’ll try to explain and copy one of my posts from discord on a similar topic:
Imagine you get all your passive points with level 3.
Some people might say “Wow, cool. I don’t have much time so getting my full spec at level 3 saves a lot of time.” Others would be like “Oh no. It doesn’t feel like I earned my way and progression feels empty.” You could suggest latter people to just play on and only spend 1 point per level when they progress. But I doubt it would feel the same. At this point you can just pretend to progress when in fact there is no progress anymore. The fact that you know it is only a fake will make that progress not feel right.
By this I mean that it isn’t a respec penalty when it is a choice and not a hard rule. It’s like trying to tickle yourself. It doesn’t work.
The skill system in games like d3 or Wolcen don’t make me feel like I have an important choice when progress. You can brainlessly just blindfolded apply your points. You click, kill a mob, respec because it wasnt like you expected. This makes all decisions irrelevant. It aren’t choices when there is no drawback.
In LE, early levels, you are forced to kind of stick with your decision. Respec is a pain so you wont do it that much. But this also forces you to think about the pros and cons. To make up your mind and plan where you want to go. You are forced to understand the mechanics and synergies.
This also may lead to that point that you have to try to make a seemingly bad decision work. Perhaps by building gear around a skill that feels bad for the first 5 levels. But an hour later you may smash your enemies and think “Wow, thank god I did not respec that skill. It’s awesome.”
LE gives all the opportunities to respec besides your mastery. And the higher you go, the lower the effort.
So at the point you have understood most of the mechanics, you’ve earned some gold and a bunch if decent items you can respec very easy and explore everything you want.
The only downside is that you have to get to that point to realise.
So because you cannot show restraint from pressing a button, other players should not get that button as an option. Nice.
I understand why you want no respec. I don’t understand why you can’t just not press the damn button. I never, ever in a million years want to play this game Hardcore. Yet the button is there. Not once have I been tempted to press it. Yet I find I can be happy for those who enjoy it and have that button to press. Good for them.
Do you realized, that current game systems are designed in a way, because devs see things similar to me? You are downplaying the argument because you don’t understand the issue. I think we already said enough time, what you are proposing is not good solution for us, but I alone proposed something, I would accept - respec orbs…I still didn’t hear your opinion on that.
First of all, I don’t have problem with button. I don’t care. The only thing I am against is pooling these players together with other. As you are not pooling hardcore players and softcore players, you should not pool players with free respec and non-free respec.
What I am questioning however is, if this would not fragment population too much. I think it would. But that’s just my opinion.
Why would you need to segregate players based on respecc choice? Just make respec only work in set conditions like being in End of Time and not grouped or whatever, there is absolutely no difference between a free respeccer and er…the other one.
I mean why would you care if you ended up grouped with me, knowing I had freely respecced many times? If anything that will just mean my build is fine-tuned and very efficient.
You just said yourself at 70 everyone’s respec is as good as free, so what’s the problem?
As I said, it’s mind-boggling you don’t see the issue so I am not sure if more examples would actually help.
So my question is, why you are so dead-set to have these players playing together with non-respec players? Do you understand why hardcore and softcore players are not playing together? Do you understand, if you remove time commitment from one group of players, you will automatically put the other group into disadvantage?
Also, I never said that at level 70 respec is as good as free, and if it is, I would definitely want to change it.
Hi guys, seems like you’re having a vigorous debate. I just wanted to pop my head in and say that we won’t be splitting the community based on respec options. It will continue to be a blanket system.
That said, the system as a whole could change still. It’s not set in stone and we do want it to be something that players enjoy interacting with as a whole. We know it’s not perfect. We do have a vision for important requirements that can sometimes be difficult to reconcile with expectations from other games.
OK so are we suddenly saying that a free spec player has an advantage over someone like yourself because it takes them less time to try out various builds than it would you? This is the first this has come up. I thought your only objection to free respec was simply that you wanted your choices to matter. Now it has become not only that you want your choices to matter, but that you perceive that players who don’t care to play the exact way you want to have some unfair advantage that you dislike? My mind is now officially boggling.
Hardcore versus softcore is not comparible for the record. HC players have a completely different playstyle to SC and they do not and cannot mix. SC players will get HC players killed - accidentally or otherwise - because they don’t have the same careful approach to pulling enemies etc. This split makes sense.
On the other hand, free respeccers play the exact same way as non-free respeccers, so the point is mute. I can buy the argument that a free-speccer like me might do better in Arena because I can try more builds out in less time than yourself, but you’ve chosen that path not me. It’s still no reason to segregate us, as the difference is minor and either of us can google the “best build” any time we want. Plus it’s a co-op adventure anyway, we’re on the same side. If you kill more enemies than me because your build is superior, I’d be delighted, believe me.
I therefore conclude there is absolutely no reason to segregate players because their respec patterns or options are different, especially if you control and limit where and when a respec can occur.
