So my preference to creating many alt characters instead of respecing to play the different aspects of the game is just wrong?
This is exactly my point - YOU find the benefits illusory and the detriments lead to YOUR disengagement. Within the frame work of the existing game these are YOUR opinions based on YOUR feelings and YOUR experience.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with this at all… but it doesnt mean that when I say “I do not find the benefits illusory and the detriments do not lead to disengagement.” there is anything wrong with that either…
There was a thread recently that someone made about how he only got like 40 hours out of the game before it became boring for him. We know that a minority of people use forums in games, so the fact that he felt that way and took time out to actually say so on the forums is kind of interesting itself.
It’s extremely easy to see players coming to the conclusion that the game doesn’t offer enough content to warrant the extra grind that the respec requires–and even after 1.0, that’s unlikely to be very different. I’d be pretty shocked if by that time we see 3-4 new, distinct endgame or alternate progression systems that people find compelling enough to grind in. I’m not going to try to estimate how many players that might be, but just from the chat and conversations here, in game, and on Discord, it seems to be a reasonable chunk of the playerbase.
Calling it subjective in this sense does nothing good for the discussion. Why would you want a system that undermines the other systems in the game this way? It makes way more sense that encouraging the exploration of various skill configurations and builds would do more to garner and retain player engagement.
I keep hearing this argument about “preference,” but not a why that preference is held or how it’s actually better for the game. It’s being used as a way to dismiss.
I’m really sorry to sound disrepectful and I sincerely apologise for this, but the more I read you the more I read “I have thought deeply, I have made my mind, I am right and you are wrong whatever you may say”. This may not be what you really think, but it’s what I feel when reading your comments. So I don’t have the feeling I can really discuss. That’s why I haven’t responded for long.
I get this reaction sometimes. I think it’s more to do with what I don’t say than what I do in some ways. If I’m saying, “Look, here’s my case for why I think A>B, here’s all the underlying math that goes into both the A and B terms, and I’m not seeing the logic to the contrary,” it’s probably that I haven’t directly asked for the opposing “proof,” so to speak–the *Why do you hold that preference/opinion?" Someone just telling me it is a preference/opinion isn’t really sufficient to answer that.
I’m also aware that sometimes I can be really direct or sound overly opinionated (often unintentionally), so I do apologize if that is putting you or anyone else off. It’s something I work on, but it’s always been a difficulty for me.
What I dont understand is why you are finding it so hard to accept the idea that others can have a preference for something that is counter to yours and counter to what you think would be better for a game that you are just a player of.
You seem like a perfectly rational person and I understand what you are trying to get across but I am also struggling to understand your opposing view on the general concept that personal preference plays an important part in the game… so at your request, I’ll try and explain why I like creating alts to play other aspects of the game…
I like playing games and games are an escape for me and a de-stress mechanism.
I like to experience everything the game has to offer and get my monies worth before i stop playing… I have played LE for 9 months (total 800h) and I usually average about 1200h in this kind of game - sometimes well over 2000h before quitting. Type and complexity of the game plays a role here.
I like complex games (i.e. hate FPS type games bang bang dead) that have a lot to experience and learn. I find failure in games a real challenge…
These above items combined mean that I play games multiple times (Like Factorio/Witcher/Skyrim) or create multiple characters (Diablo, PoE, LE etc) to experience everything I possibly can.
When a game has something like build diversity, I start out building the base characters in the styles I like… usually a tanky melee or a dps ranger and then maybe a mage… Once I learn the game more, I then delve deaper and start creating new characters based on a skill I like or a unique drop I found or even a build guide I found online… 9 times out of 10 the characters might fail or as I learn a skill more I realise that it doesnt work as well as I hoped… Then I move on, rinse and repeat and as long as I get some success on the way, the game will hook me in… Important note - I dont see my failures as failures in the game, I see them as failures in my understanding of the game mechanism and rules… which then motivates me to learn them which then keeps me playing even longer.
At no time does the way in which the game restricts me influence my enjoyment of the game - I dont spent time wishing that the game worked in a different way, I spend the time learning how the game wants me to do it while finding the most effective way I can do so.
Specifically to LE… These factors combine make me play the game in a way that respecing my character or being restricted in doing so is just how the game works and I work around it… I 100% understand how others may not play like I do and therefor want a quicker easier way to change their minds about something in they have chosen in the game … 100% understand this, I just dont agree on it because it doesnt suit the way that I like playing
as a side note to this… making things easier in games is not something I like and I like an even playing field for all - without any shortcuts… but again, thats just me and I 100% understand casual players struggling to find time to grind away for gear or how long it takes to make a new character… Those are all valid opinions and preferences and I am always willing to accept that there is a differentiator between those that want to play in one way vs those that want to play in another… However, if a game is created in a certain way, then everyone needs to play within the framework of the game and if thats how the game works then thats how the game works… Obviously if the devs f the framework up, then thats an entirely different story and even I wouldnt play the game then.
I feel relatively comfortable talking about this because if I don’t restrict myself, I have exactly the same issue. People often told me I sound aggressive and close-minded. And I still need much effort to fight this.
Okay, so we are actually in agreement on about 80-85% of this. We have a lot in common in terms of those numbered points. Where I see the hang-up, at least along the axis of where your view and mine begin to have static, is around here…
If the limitation seems well justified and implemented, I 100% agree with this point, but that conditional “if” is really important here. Losing the experience–or really, losing the skill points–is where the restrictions actually do influence my enjoyment of the game. It isn’t that I’m against restrictions in general, or that these things can’t have costs, but the implementation of this particular system is among the worst iterations of similar features I have seen in the vast library of games I have played.
The concern here becomes:
What if enough people share this view and this game can’t compete with the rest of the genre?
What happens if people look at LE the same way as Wolcen because of this pattern of false weight?
Going back to that Chess analogy, I just have a hard time seeing people preferring the lap Chess to other forms of it on a large scale–assuming we and the devs agree that we’d like to see this game succeed that way–because similar systems offered by other games do more to encourage people to experiment and explore what the game has to offer. This system depresses that interest.
The why I’m looking for in your preferences here is missing something I would like to know: Do you believe those preferences lead to more or less success for the game, and how do you justify that opinion? Or is it simply that you somehow enjoy this style more, even if the game eventually fails to reach the audience it intends to because of this pattern?
I never said it wasn’t important, I’m just trying to get you to accept that the views we hold aren’t always as objective as we believe they may be, that there may be someone who has just as “good” an understanding as you but disagree with you because their emotional reaction to it is different to yours.
I’m not saying it’s objective. I’m saying that calling it subjective/opinion isn’t a reason. I’m looking for the reasons/logic/examples that point to this model being a better one, because the topic is essentially about how respec should be handled.
Look, many game designs are there to achieve some arbitrary goal, which some players my prefer and some don’t. Here, the goal is quite simple, Character customization should feel meaningful, not be just loadout system, which you can switch on a whim. Reason, why there is xp releveling is to add some time requirement outside of resource requirement. This is the reason - but you know that.
You may question, if this is the best way to implement time requirement into respecing, or you may ask, if players actually want limited respecing in the game (I do), but what other reason you want to hear?
This is up to each player to decide. It definitely works for me and my preferred way to play, so how you can say it does not work? Maybe not for you, but that’s about it.
Look, it is hard to debate this topic, if you wont accept that game design is mostly opinion based. Of course, this is not only way how to do it right. There are countless ways how to make it right or wrong, but your ideas here are going directly against their goal. Question is, if you agree with their goals or not.
It’s not their intentions that I have a problem with. It’s the implementation. This issue clearly bothers a lot of other people too, because I see complaints about it constantly. It’s like that, “You have all these flavors, but you chose…” meme. In the same way, they have a lot of options to handle this, but they chose one of the worst.
Overall I think the devs are very intelligent, competent, thoughtful, and that their hearts are in the right place. I even told Mike that I appreciate how this game feels like it’s “From gamers, for gamers.” That doesn’t mean I agree with all their decisions, and there are certain aspects of it where I see a repeating pattern that makes me nervous about the future of the game because I can see how these things will always be an uphill battle for the devs to defend.
I have seen other games lose their player base because devs were too stubborn or arrogant about certain things. So far I don’t believe EHG are arrogant, but I do see some signs of stubbornness.
This feature in particular, if not corrected, will be a pain point for them, and it doesn’t have to be.
Side Note
I’m getting tired so I’m going to get some rest. We’ve kinda monopolized this thread a bit tonight, so it’ll be good to give others a chance to weigh in too. I’ll catch up with you later. Have a good one.
I just want to point out, that Wolcen lost playerbase not because of design decisions and stubbornness , but because the game was just bad and not finished on many fronts.
I think it’s very fair to talk about game designs like respec system here and it’s good talk about pros and cons, but I believe it’s a bit disingenuous to call these systems bad overall for the game, because you don’t like this particular system.
Again, you were asking for the reason and why current system works as it works, I think the only reason why this system is because it achieves the goal they set for themselves and they like it…and I like it too.
Honestly, I am not sure what would be better system. I think you mentioned Grim Dawn system, which is purely resource based and It just does not work for me, I have so much iron, I can respec at any point I want, I would not call it interesting or good design.
I like some orb system like PoE has - but it’s just too simple and in the end, there is not much difference from simple gold price respec system. Few months ago, I suggested rare resource drops, which would allow you to change skill without losing levels - but again, this would work only, if this resource would be rare enough to not promote switching builds for every run.
I started replying to your response to me earlier in the thread but I read through the rest since then.
The main things I get from all of this discussion are:
You seem to be a well educated, rational person.
You have an opinion on the way that the developers are implementing certain things like respec;ing.
You are of the opinion that they way they are currently doing things like respec’ing is wrong based on your experience as a player.
You are worried that the game will fail in your opinion if the devs are not willing to re-consider changing these views to align with yours.
Your opinion somehow holds more weight than anyone elses and if the devs dont listen, you are confident that their game will fail / not be a success.
You are aware that other opinions exist but they have no merit because they are other players preferences that cannot be justified beyond someone liking it that way or just conforming to the rules of the game chosen by the developers/designers.
…
I think I need to recuse myself from this discussion…
I just want to put my 2 cents in here on the topic. At first, I was like hmm not sure about this way. After thinking and playing the game I really like the way they handled it. I think to be able to change specs on the fly makes games feel cheap and something not worth playing. Decisions should matter but should be able to change at a cost. It does not take long to regain the skill levels. People say it is to punish. Not if you do one at a time. Yes doing all can cripple you. So to the EHG team please leave it the way you have it now.
It’s even more punishing if you do it 1 point at a time, since it wont benefit from the catch-up mechanic.
I’ll reiterate the suggestion I made previously
This wouldn’t remove the consequences of changing your skill build, it would simply give the user the opportunity to make an informed decision prior to suffering said consequences.
In Grim Dawn I spent a lot of time fine tuning various builds by slightly moving points around, testing dps against a dummy, rinse and repeat. That kind of testing is just not realistic to do if you need to run to the arena between every change.
