Resistance Changes, EHP and other defensive systems

There’s been a bit of confusion in recent topics about the changes to resistances, and how certain % of resistance mean you end up taking “4% more (or less) damage”. While many posters will agree (or even insist) that resistances do not exist in a vacuum, most will reason about them in this exact fashion.

I represented a character’s EHP in the following table, comparing the two systems. The character’s base HP is set to 1500, while the exact number is irrelevant, it being different from 100 should make it less confusing.

https://imgur.com/a/C6uIdKo

An argument was made that in order for the system to be rewarding, it needs to be balanced around having 0% resistances, and every bit added would then be a bonus (1).
This argument is incomplete in my opinion, as, indeed, resistances do not exist in a vacuum, and monster damage must be balanced with regards to how much EHP a character may have, not how much % mitigation a single layer gives.
While from a player’s perspective you use tools to mitigate monster damage, the system must be designed from the other end : You give monsters ways to circumvent the player’s defences.
This allows you to see how much EHP differents classes / builds may have (and balance it across the board), depending on various mechanics.
“Linear” systems like resistances (and now armour) are a mere matter of multiplication. The old glancing blows was a problem in that regard: one may have been tempted to say “50% glancing blows = 150% HP”, but that did not really hold in combat, because monster damage is inconsistent (as it should).

Other defensive mechanics

Systems like dodge, crit avoidance and block (to a lesser extent) suffer from the same issue.

Dodge is an “all or nothing” type of mechanic. Mathematically speaking, as you get closer to 100%, your EHP skyrockets towards infinite. But it being probability based means you could also get slapped by a telegraph while at 99%.
Ground DOTs and diminishing returns mean it is a more of a fail-safe than a primary mechanic, and no one in their right mind would just sit around and rely on it to “face tank” (because the point is precisely not to).

From a player’s perspective, monster dodge is a bitch. There’s no way in hell a monster the size of a building will casually “dodge” a meteor.

My suggestion: Give some attacks / spells (Meteor, Glacier’s 3rd explosion, …) a “massive” tag, that prevents dodging. And do the same for monsters with huge telegraphs.
Dark Souls did it with some 2H moves that cannot be parried - it makes sense, and doesn’t subjugate “hit hard, hit once” play styles to chance-based mechanics.

The same could be done with block: certain attacks could have a maximum mitigation on block (say, 15%) and classes that rely on block could have ways to raise that cap to ~25%.

Making resistances matter

This probably means making them harder to gear.

Number tweaks

  • Do away with the set affixes. They are virtually useless until you can min-max your gear, but also prevent swapping pieces around and gearing for a specific encounter.
  • Reduce access to resistance through passive tree / skills
  • Single resistance affixes give 4 / 7 / 10 / 14 / 20 / 30 / 45
  • Multi resistance affixes (elemental or poison/necrotic/void) become prefixes
  • Said prefixes give 1 / 2 / 4 / 7 / 10 / 15 / 25
  • Make single resistance shards more available, particularly during levelling

Increase competition

Currently, only two pieces of gear can have class-specific affixes. These are head and chest pieces, who also happen to be class-specific. My idea would be to expand the ability to craft class-specific affixes on other pieces (at least gloves, belts and boots) - disabling the affixes if the current class doesn’t match. (2)
Because there would be a trade-off, the opportunity cost of some uniques may remain largely the same.

Another alternative her make the rest of the gear class-specific too (boots, gloves, off-hands), creating new items where needed. It makes little sense to have a mage wearing light silk robes and thick plate gauntlets.
Likewise, a sentinel who is otherwise fully covered in plate armour won’t swap to fur boots. (3)

Reduce player damage

As someone else noted, the ease of access to 75% all resistances (and other layers) may be a symptom that players do not rely that much on gear to deal damage.
While not being too gear dependent to clear the story content is a good thing, running around in 75+ areas with a mediocre level 45 weapon should not be easy.

Notes

(1) This of course cannot apply to the “classical system”, as EHP tends towards infinite as resistances increase, and even a “reasonable” 75% cap yields a 400% increase. If damage is balanced around 1500 EHP, then the game will be trivial at 6000.
In last Epoch’s case, this would actually make more sense, as going from 0% to 75% resistances is precisely a 75% EHP increase.
In PoE’s example, Chaos Damage somewhat follows this idea: going from -60% to 0% res is comfortable, going to 75% effectively makes you much tankier. This damage type is much less “spiky” than the others though.

(2) I realise that this may not be a trivial change at all in the current system.

(3) Fashion considerations aside, this is probably an enormous amount of work as well, as would likely have a host of unanticipated consequences with regards to gear matching affixes - STR would have no business rolling on mage boots. Uniques may also have to be moved from bases in order to remain “shared”.

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I think people talk about resists in a vacuum is because whether you’re block capped, dodge capped, crit avoidance capped or have obscene amounts of ward doesn’t affect how resists work. You are correct in that you wouldn’t have just resists without any other form of defences, but for the purposes of discussing how resists work and how they have changed, it’s a lot simpler to ignore the other defences (since they are separate defensive layers that don’t interact, apart from Dodge which makes anything else irrelevant for hits if you succeed on a dodge rng).

IMO, making a discussion or argument about the new resists/penetration revolve around EHP is a bit more complicated (not wrong, just more complicated) than it would otherwise need to be.

Personally, I don’t like the spikey nature of dodge, it feels great until you fail a dodge rng & then you get the **** kicked out of you (which makes thematic sense since dodge characters traditionally have cloth/light armour so would expect to feel the pain if they doing avoid the hit).

I’m not sure if block is “too powerful” at the moment or not, you’re giving up a fair bit of damage by not going 2 hander and taking block nodes on the passive tree (Sentinel). It’ll be interesting to see how things are balanced between 2-hander, 1-hander/shield & dual wielding when that gets introduced, so personally I wouldn’t change anything on block until a few patches after DW hits since I suspect it’ll have to be rebalanced then anyway.

I kinda agree with you on the ease of hitting 75% resists, it only requires ~8 prefixes to cap the non-elemental resists & somewhere between 4 & 5 elemental resist suffixes. It also feels like all of my builds are the same in terms of gearing, which is “bad”. But what I’d like to see is there be more ways of getting resist on the passive trees (probably mostly above the mid-point) to make masteries feel different.

Currently, you only really need to put offensive affixes on your weapon, then you get all the rest of the damage you need from your skill & your passive tree. I’m not sure that that’s a bad thing, but I also don’t think your suggestion would change that. What if they got rid of the set resists & gave us more access to resists on the passive trees? That would give the player a choice of whether to go for resists on gear or the passive tree.

I’d also like to see the class-specific affixes drop a bit more frequently, not sure if they should be on more slots though.

I agree that most player damage comes from the skill (& passives), but the weapon provides the base damage for everything except throwing attacks & minions. If you’re running round a lvl 75+ area with a lvl 45 weapon, you could be doing a lot more damage with a lvl 75+ weapon (unless you’re minion or use throwing attacks)…

Yes, I think that’s what the enemy penetration is supposed to give the feel of, fluctuations in your resists (either through gearing or shred) is closely mirrored in the amount of damage you take. So going from 75% down to 74% would mean you take 1% more damage in LE.

They did it when they made helms/chests class specific. They “just” made the pre-existing bases non-drop & created a bunch of new bases that were class-specific, no reason why they couldn’t do it again notwithstanding the amount of work it would take.

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Thanks for taking the time to sort through my ramblings :slight_smile:

I’m not sure it is that much more complicated than making arguments about relative % more/less damage; I feel more confident going back to a “bottom line” value, that helps me ascertain whether my results make sense.
At the very least, it proves that resistances in this system and the “classical” one are not the same, if there was really any doubt about it.
The discussion would need to be a bit more fleshed out though, including mitigation sources like armour, block, potential sources of “%x less damage taken”…

Right there with you on dodge, I like it as an alternative to block (thematically speaking), but it should be kept under strict control. I probably was a bit harsh on block, it is after all not a 100% mitigation, so it’s fine as it is.

Precisely why I’d love to see set affixes gone. Although I’d probably tune down some of the resistance sources as well, that probably depends on which class we’re considering.

Yeah, that’s a fair point. I’m used to dealing with comparators in my job (Accountant) so it makes sense to me…

Yeah, that’s where I disagree though. Resists will always work the way they do regardless of whether you have any of those sources of mitigation, which is why, IMO, it’s simpler to ignore them & just focus on how resist affects the damage you take. But I accept I can be a bit a)pedantic & b)dog-with-a-bone about things sometimes.

My bad, I meant an overall discussion about EHP - and potential alternatives to resistances (say, 100% block with 75% effectiveness - damage over time says hi).
Otherwise I 100% agree that taking other stuff into account when considering resistances is just going to muddy the waters.

Nothing’s really wrong with what you said. Just one point:

They did that by decreasing monster damage across the board and increasing base hp. If they kept the same base hp and monster damage values while introducing area penetration, people would have been taking a lot more damage because the absolute value of incoming damage increased massively due to area penetration.

And like what Llama said, it’s easier to discuss resistances in a vacuum because introducing other factors complicates the discussion if it’s about the effectiveness of area penetration. Although I agree there is value in considering other factors because in the end, it’s a holistic experience not limited to just resistances.

On a slightly different note I think EHG should look into how armor functions. Armor is another source of damage reduction that I think is inferior to resistances. Resistances can go to 75% but armor softcaps hard around 40%. I admit I haven’t done the math on armor efficiency at lower HP, but at face value it seems more efficient to just cap resistances and ignore armor, especially when armor doesn’t do anything against DOT. I suggested this somewhere else, but it would be great to roll in crit damage reduced into armor and remove the crit avoidance affix. You would have a clear distinction between resistances and armor. Resistances for consistent damage and armor for damage spikes. Not to mention I hate “mandatory” stats like how glancing blow functioned (get to 100% then ignore).

You can totally ignore armour, but you’d still get some benefit from it due to the gear you’ve got equipped has some on it. I don’t think it’s supposed to be as much of a primary defence (like resists, ward & dodge), but everybody always gets some of it. If they want more, they can devote more affix slots to it. Some classes (Sentinel) will find it easier to get more armour, just like the Mage/Acolyte has an easier time of getting ward.

That sounds interesting, I think I like that idea, especially if it reduced the damage from the crit rather than helping to avoid it completely, though you might need to reduce the effectiveness of it a bit as the cap of 65% would reduce a crit from 200% damage to 70%. Maybe that’s not a bad thing?

They could double/triple armors effectiveness vs. crits, and change crit avoidance from subtractive to multiplicative.

Doubling the armor effectiveness would mean 10k armor would act like 20k vs. crits. It would mean it’s less effective the more armor you have, but if/when you reduce damage by 50-60%, your probably not too worried about crits anyway. 50% reduction already means you’re ‘negating’ the crit, because 200% damage just became 100% anyway.

Then 100% Crit avoidance could reduce crit chance by 1/2. 200% would reduce by 2/3rds, etc.

In principle yes, but 10k armour is already pushing the diminishing returns (55.6% mitigation), 15k gives 59.68%.

50% reduction wouldn’t negate the crit, because the non-crits would be reduced by 50% as well, so a crit would still be double the non-crit damage.

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