It’s likely to help you reroll a crap implicit (on an otherwise good item) rather than to help you get a max roll.
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Hmm this makes sense but why does it basically exclude me from getting a max roll? Logically if I reroll any value there should be a chance to get a max roll.
But I will accept it as it is. Its not bad for the game I am just still wondering.
I understand the philosophy, but the reality as you said Llama is that it ALREADY is incredibly difficult to get high rolls if everything were evenly weighted. The implicit values have huge ranges in this game.
To further weight it down towards the middle is unnecessary and punishing.
It doesn’t exclude you from getting a max roll, it’s just weighted towards getting a medium roll. Improbable is not impossible.
Not all of them have “huge” ranges, some of them (~1/2 of 1-handed swords, for example) don’t have any range at all. The devs have said that they like having larger ranges since that promotes the hunt for better loot, and while I get that, I’m personally not a fan of larger ranges. And while it’s nice to have a high/max roll, it’s really not necessary.
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im running a minion build, the ranges for almost every piece of minion implicit is about 30. By natural drop, the odds of getting a well-rolled implicit value is insanely rare (in the millions). The odds of getting that PLUS useful mods…now add to that a crafting system designed to heavily weigh the middle range. It is FUNCTIONALLY impossible to get high or even medium-high implicits.
Sure, in the long run the %s on the implicits are somewhat negligible but still…
It’s not that bad. A Skeletal Sceptre has implicit ranges of 53-59 adaptive spell damage & 25%-65% minion damage, so you have a 1 in 7 chance of getting a max roll on the adaptive spell damage (though if you’re a minion build, that’s likely less important) & 1 in 41 chance of getting a max roll minion damage. Combined you therefore have a 1 in 287 chance of getting both max rolls.
A Dragonbone Axe has 7-10 minion damage & 70%-100% minion damage so you have a 1 in 4 chance of getting a max roll on the flat damage & 1 in 31 of getting a max roll on the % damage & 1 in 124 chance of getting a max roll on both.
The Soul Harvester Axe is quite a bit worse with 100%-166% on both it’s minion implicits resulting in a 1 in 4,489 chance of getting max roll on both.
Obsidian Axes aren’t as bad as a Soul Harvester if you want max rolls on both implicits (only 1 of which is minion-based) at 1 in 1,296.
We don’t know how weighted it is towards the middle ground, only the devs (maybe @EHG_Mike would be willing to weigh in) can tell us. Maybe they’ve just used a normal/Gaussian distribution so you’ve got a ~68% chance of getting a roll in the middle 1/2 (ish) of the range:
Prove it, with a decent sized sample.
I know it feels bad to not get high rolls, but they aren’t necessary. And the devs do take feedback like this onboard, they’re going to be making some changes to crafting (re the fracturing I believe) to mitigate the “feels bad” moments.
Hey, so the normalizing function isn’t as harsh as you might think. It’s really simple, it just rolls twice and takes the average.
This has 2 main purposes, one: it reduces the chance of a crap roll. Because you only have a crack or two at it usually, getting a low roll feels really bad. Averaging two rolls makes it more likely to get a useable roll rather than effectively bricking the item if it only has one shot left. The second reason is to help emphasize really good drops. It means that going out and killing stuff is just a little bit better overall.
We put the item into the game when we received a large amount of feedback that people were finding otherwise amazing items with poorly rolled implicits and no way to even try and improve that, making the items feel really bad to even try crafting on because it had a limited potential.
Now, while rune of shaping is not getting a major rework, the new system does have some pretty significant knock on effect changes that will change this interaction and make getting a high roll implicit easier on certain drops. Like, items that drop with something already rolled on them. I don’t know how to explain it without going into how the crafting is changing. It’s going to be better.
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Tip here, if you use a rune of shaping to up the implicits also slap on a glyph of stability if you have extra available. I can tell you from experience however-it’s not worth wasting the mats especially early on. Don’t waste time crafting gear-just farm it. Keep moving through the quest line or the mono’s. You’ll get plenty of drops to work with. AND keep checking the vendors! You would not believe the sweet gear that drops from them. +2 stats all the time to the really good shards. Good luck!
NGL, slightly disappointed that there’s not some super-awesome maths involved…
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Yea, having the math be straight forward really helps comprehension so we try to lean in that direction when we can.
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If it doesn’t use the Greek alphabet, it’s not proper maths.
sulk
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Excellent, thanks for the info! Straightforward math = better. Let’s not slip into the pit of despair that is “other game” insane math 
Where does PoE have “insane maths”? Just curious.
well when I say crazy, in terms of items, I mean all the crafting odds and different tiers and weights and sheer amount of information to keep track of.
I look forward to seeing how the crafting changes affect Rune of Shaping. While the current system is good for early/mid game when you get a decent item and just need a decent implicit to make it an upgrade, it’s really punishing late game when getting a really good implicit roll becomes much more important for upgrades.
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Yes definitely, I wasted 10 shaping runes on a nice pair of engraved gauntlets which dropped with 6% implicit, I would’ve been fine with 10+ as it would cap my endurance but max was 8% and it fractured before I could put another suffix. I think it’s pretty bad that it shaping has a high chance to keep it the same/make it lower.
For items with high varying/multiple implicits (eg: turquoise ring, hollow blade) I don’t pick em up unless they are a good implicit (or to shatter).
This depends on what your starting value is.
Rune Of Shaping does not take your previous value into account at all. this has upsides and downsides.
But I do think this is perfectly fine, since the main power of most items coems from affixes, not implicits and implicits should be somethign for true min-maxing IMO.
And that is a totally valid strategy.
But occasionally you still find an Item with so good explicit affixes already, that it’s worth trying to spend a few ruens fo shapings on it.
I would still like to have the ability to filter Items by Implicit values, this way I could deliberatly filter normal Items with bad implicits, but still show good magic/rare items with good affixes.
Thanks @EHG_Mike for clarifying the thought process and reasoning behind it. I am super excited for the upcoming crafting changes as late game crafting isnt optimal as once you get that desired item with a T6 / T7 roll it will fracture too fast as @McFluffin already pointed out.
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