There’s a steep wall in character progression when playing CoF and min-maxing.
The wall is getting good 2+ T7 exalted items. In my opinion we are hitting this wall fairly quick and up until that point the endgame play is still enjoyable, because it is more diverse. However once the character are decked out with fairly good uniques with the guaranteed 1 T7 affix and accetable T5, the “endgame loop” becomes increadibly repetitive, stale and frustrating:
Farm Memory Amber
Run Nemesis Towers, banishing them until there’s an interesting 2+ T7 → Imprint
Run Unclaimed Trove to trigger imprint.
Craft item, turning it into garbage 99.99%.
Occasionally farm Rune of Havoc by using gold in Lightless Arbor, run prophecies or Rampant Coast, …
Rinse and repeat for days/weeks/months for one item slot.
The problems:
CoF has no prophecies to “farm” 2+ T7.
Nemesis are the best way to acquire 2+ T7 ? Still requires killing lots and lots of Nemesis and banishing.
Imprint rules are arcane and not documented. You want the T7 affixes on the opposite side (prefix/suffix) of what you actually want?
CoF has no prophecies to directly farm Rune of Havoc.
The probability to hit required 2+ T7 using Rune of Redemption is so low, it doesn’t exist. It’s a trap.
The problems are compounding if your build requires an Primordial Exalted Item. Oh boy, is this not happening. Builds for which there’s no good Primordial Unique just got the short end of the stick.
It seems like these problems will not be addressed in Season 4 either, despite changes being requested for a long time: Rune of Corruption adds another layer to fail crafting miserably. Echo Chains have no use if you can’t chain specific echos like Nemesis Tower or Unclaimed Trove into long chains. If they are just the last echo of a (3-way?) chain, then they are a greater waist of time than returning to the reward platform and selecting the next echo to run.
(Though my argument is that requiring us to run long chains of Nemesis Tower and Unlaimed Trove is the main source of the problem)
Has nothing to do with CoF, that’s a general issue of the game.
Hence it needs to be solved at the root and not at the faction level.
High corruption (700+) is better then Nemesis for the exalted grinds, especially in CoF, there it happens even earlier because of the multiplicative way how the trigger for extra exalteds dropping happens.
The imprint system is a nice base system… but the functionality of it is plainly spoken shit. Yeah.
It needs simplification or proper documentation in-game with a whole player help dedicated to that alone. It’s the core progression mechanic for end-game equipment after all and it’s a disaster.
I’ve already stated that Rune of Redemption is garbage before it even came out. The teaser came and I simply scratched my head for ‘what does this actually solve?’. Since it uses FP and the weight plays a role it’s borderline useless. Yep.
Rune of Redemption should plainly spoken be 1) more rare 2) without FP cost.
Hence it would act as a pure re-roll for the respective base, treating it as a ‘item type + 2 T7’ base for crafting, only being walled by time investment this way rather then non-stop fail-states.
The whole crafting system has no ‘stability’ at all, it’s all pure gambling which feels great at the beginning and turns into a detriment the further along you go.
Or likely 5… or 6… or 7 plainly spoken.
I don’t see EHG tackling the core issues of the game foundation in a very long time.
Especially as you state:
Which goes actively counter to the regular ask of me and several others to ‘Make crafting less of a RNG hell’.
People always think ‘but without the rampant RNG people would get the results too quickly!’.
Which is not the case, you can reduce acquisition rate without fail-states of gambling. And that’s missing simply.
In MG you just shop for them, no? What I mean is, in MG there’s a direct, deterministic path to aquire the multi T7 if they are available. Even in the correct base. (Glyph of Envy is another trap). You can direct your “farming efforts” with a goal in sight or as a “side-mission” whilst doing the same stuff as you usually do. Nothing like that exists for CoF players.
I hardly get any multi T7 at 1000 corruption. I got a loot filter rule that shows any multi T7, no matter what base or affix.
I would be content if the imprint gives similar items than the one you imprinted. Not this weird reverse prefix-suffix rule to optimize for what you actually require.
I fully agree. That would be a nice idea.
It’s a shame.
Rune of Corruption also adds a layer of fear. Once you finally crafted a good multi T7 item, after all the effort and luck, should you really corrupt the item and potentially turn it into garbage?
This is good and bad because you could truly craft godly items, but I’m personally to risk averse.
Yeah… but someone has to drop it, right so you can buy it, right? And since MG has vastly less drops (but you also don’t need a chunk of what is usable for other builds, which makes it partially up again) you still don’t get it in the end, the prices are so extreme for decent bases to try and craft them that you’ll play for a much longer time in most 2 T7 cases… if even a single item for a single try is available in the first place.
That ‘direct deterministic path’ is only as deterministic as the base system supports. Which it really doesn’t do well
Glyph of Envy only has the stability function, the other stuff is worthless… I don’t know why EHG didn’t give us a item to increase stability directly rather then this piece of garbage. Would’ve made more sense as the crafting function is non-existent basically.
Unless I got it wrong (which I might, since it’s hard to find out precisely unless you specifically test for it longer-term) then imprints of ‘base items’ (non uniques) are affected by CoF Ranks. Which means upgrades happen there, which is why the imprint system prefers CoF players so heavily.
Yep, simplification. EHG tried to be fancy and fancy made it worse
Yeah, but that’s plainly spoken fine.
It is meant as a direct gambling mechanic. It doesn’t blindside you with it. It’s expected and hence treated accordingly.
Presentation makes up a lot of how any mechanic fits… which is why crafting gets so much flak.
It presents itself as a ‘deterministic approach to crafting’ but in the background it’s designed as a pure slot-machine type of mechanic. Sure… we can say that other games have the same, like PoE or Torchlight, but the difference there is that the system hides the RNG so well that people don’t mind it and don’t see it as gambling. They lack the ‘fail-state’ simply.
Every system can have 3 potential states: Success - Equilibrium - Failure.
In PoE and Torchlight we got most systems set up as Success - Equilibrium.
Hence you either win… or nothing happened. You don’t loose ‘already achieved results’.
That’s the baseline crafting mechanics there. They also have the ‘Failure’ state. Be it with Corruption, be it with specific crafts, be it with the plasticity usage mechanics and so on… but they’re not the ‘lowermost crafting layer’, they’re those beyond that, a ‘extra’.
LE doesn’t have that sadly, the crafting system starts right off with the slot pulls.
Yeah, and a healthy system causes you to create 2 similar items first to then risk 1 of those to progress. Which we already have.
But that’s the top-end way to handle things, and when it gets overbearing people loose interest. Which… sadly we also have ongoing.
So putting another layer on top doesn’t make sense. You first gotta ease on the problems below to then allow proper usage of those after.
Honestly I don’t care what MG can and does, as long as the system doesn’t unsidedly favors it (because I hate the idea of that). Like how MG favors Lightless Arbor for Havoc farm or Mastery respec. MG will always be stronger than CoF anyway, it doesn’t need extra favoritism.
I mean now that it changes the base item since S3. It uses FP, so it is useless. The stability function is now with the Temporal Keystones.
Exactly. The top end is so far out of reach that I don’t even want to try.
True, forgot about that. And yes, still useless because of the FP usage. The only applicable situation is when the item is already finished but the base wrong… which… why would you even try to create this situation? And if it’s not there the success rate drops to basically zero right away.
So yes, absolutely useless, a fringe-use case which is absolutely wasted effort to put into the game with how rarely it happens.
Top-end development… not basics which the game struggles with still.
That’s the intent behind MG, yes, but that doesn’t mean that that’s how it works in practice due to lack of market participation & the ones that do deciding that 50 trillion gold is a perfectly reasonable price for a 2x t7 item.
That is, to be fair, the entire point if CoF, it’s supposed to be for people that luke the RNG of drops. The devs have even said that it’s less time-efficient than MG at the highest end (getting specific bases with specific affixes at a good roll at high tier & specific rare/powerful uniques with good rolls & high LP).
The first is true, issues become more pronounced because of it as it drops.
The second part isn’t quite true though.
If something costs 100 mil Gold… then why does nobody put in one for 95 mil?
Means that even despite this potential value there is nobody listing it. Hence that means supply is low and the price won’t drop.
The prices we see are fitting prices for their respective environment and engagement actually, and it show directly the issues the game has and where work needs to be put in.
1 LP worthless but 2 LP impossible to get as none are listed? Well, then that means 2 LP isn’t able to be acquired easily enough according to its power.
It also shows that the respective item has ample demand… but no supply. And since the same is available in a lower variant it means that the game lacks a method of upgrading low LP into high LP items reasonably enough, otherwise the gulf wouldn’t be that massive.
So either re-rolling LP needs to allow reselling and/or better methods for re-rolling need to be introduced. The turtle sucks plainly spoken, should’ve been a specific crafting UI and the unlock solely happening through the turtle, in-echo crafting sucks overall.
Yeah, but there’s a limit to how much is acceptable or even good. And we’re not at that position for the end-game grind at all.
Oh… nono, that’s a bit misapproriated. The devs said that it’s likely less efficient as a proper trading system puts extreme power into the hands of the community.
But the practical situation is that neither is the system set up properly to allow this to happen, nor is the extreme difference in drop-rate balanced to make this a reality and neither is the participation rate high enough to push it towards that.
We know high market participation rate counters it to a decent degree but doesn’t make it catch up (as inflation tends to ruin the state before the equilibrium between them is reached, it’s more like a slingshot, first overtaking then suddenly snapping back hard. All in a short timeframe). We also know that the UI is clunky and doesn’t allow ‘mass-listings’ which makes it a extreme tedium to keep your ‘shop’ going properly. And it also doesn’t allow proper management of listed items, like swift re-pricing or even proper search of listed items.
Ultimately we always need to fix at least 2 out of those 3 situations.
Inflation.
Functionality.
Base drop-rate.
The issue is that every action is literal baby-steps. A measly tax working against inflation… but no gold-sink which is the important part.
Compare function but no quick-list from there, no preset price for mass-dumping items at it (instead individual multi-click process with loading times). Extremely reduced drop-quality comparatively to CoF, beyond what the equilibrium point would make up.
Obviously there’s a mess then, and CoF still lacks a few distinct easing methods to reduce their progression issues as well… which the crafting specifically would be able to allow handling for both, as it’s a system both access.
But once again… we need something to support it, which would be adjustments of drop-rates. Cannot craft a item which you got nothing in your posession which could even become that in the end.
Greed? Because it’s impossible to know how fast items are selling for a given price so people just YOLO an item up for a price.
Prove it, 'cause it’s not. Mike said that CoF was more time-efficient prior to min-maxing at which point MG was more time-efficient (assuming the items you want are actually available, which they may well not be on account of the lack of market participants). But yes to the rest of it.
Nope?
You obviously underprice slightly. After all otherwise your item won’t be sold.
And the lower the respective turnover rate the less likely is it to be sold at all.
Only a idiot puts items in significantly higher then those inside and expects them to sell in a swift manner. Or you’re very patient and it’s just ‘extra on the side’ as you don’t need any Gold in the next - extensive - timeframe for anything. And for every 1 of those… there’s 99 following the ‘normal’ route of slightly undercutting, as it’s the absolute norm and players have been trained on since quite a long time in nigh every game with a market.
Yes, and that is a wrong statement in practicality. Isn’t it?
Because MG is substantially more efficient early-game towards reaching the min-max range, or do you wanna say it is not?
Also CoF is overperforming compared to MG at the top-end for acquisition of the strongest exalteds for slamming onto gear.
This was said before 1.0 was released. Also the burden of proof is on your end in this case, not mine. You made a statement of ‘It was said’ and I say ‘that wasn’t the case at this timeframe’. So your part is to proof the timeframe here. I’ll be glad to backpedal though if it was mentioned at around 1.1 times still rather then pre 1.0 or early post-release.
Only an idiot thinks it happens in that direction much of the time.
Not really, no. Why do you think that being able to pick the perfect item you want with the affixes you want (on the premis that that is available) isn’t more powerful than being showered in items that probably aren’t what you want?
Just like you saying that the statement was misappropriated? Well, how about this, Mike saying it on stream:
He says that there’s always going to be a place where MG is more powerful than CoF & MG’s ability to turn a drop that isn’t useful to you into a thing that is is phenomenally powerful (which it is).
Do I particularly want to search Discord for Mike’s comment about MG being more powerful very-late game? No, not really, but you can if you wish.
Probably because there aren’t enough people playing (at all or playing MG).
The early-game clearly is for MG hence superior, isn’t it? Because the upgrades usually needed to be dropped are abundant and cheap, hence you can acquire them without investment of resources or effort.
Comparatively the scaling of CoF drops is ridiculous. Tier upgrades means for the same playtime we get a substantially higher amount of T7 items, which also goes over towards 2 T7 and 3T7. Heck… in CoF you can reasonably get lucky enough to find a 4 T7 item even with extreme investment. Comparatively in MG at the same time investment you’ll be basically ‘a tier lower’ related to those. Which goes into the market immediately. 2 T7 is a utter rarity, many bases don’t have a single listing. 3 T7 is a myth there.
So, early game MG is better and late-game CoF is better for exalteds. For uniques MG stays a lot more relevant… but even there at the more rare ones acquisition ability is basically non-existent as the amount listed is so low that it’s a miracle to see one there. Comparatively in CoF you cut acquisition rate in extreme amounts.
A good example is Ravenous Void there as not only is the acquisition rate itself very low (~990 RoA for a single one) but higher LP rolls are even more so. Means for example a 2 LP one isn’t existing on the market… hence 0% chance of acquisition through MG means. While the drop-rate for LP 2 in CoF is 1 in 1,931 instead of 1 in 3,772 (double LP chance). Together with a 150% drop-chance for specific loot it means instead of 4,5% from Gaspar it makes it a 11,25% chance to get one at max chance. This brings them absolutely into reach of long-term players to see, something a MG player basically has no chance of comparatively.
Combine that with the exalted droprate which causes 3 T7 and 4 T7 to actually be realistic drops (you can actively grind for 3 T7 drops and not deem it as a miracle with dedication) since we have 25% of all rares automatically upgraded to exalteds… and from those every single exalted Affix is 1,5 times as likely to be a T7 as well… which in combination means also a ridiculously substantial amount of exalteds to be high quality, to a degree the market simply is unable to follow.
Not to speak that also - as much as I know - imprints are affected by this as well.
MG is limited by items nigh universally useful which you’ll also not see twice in your playtime. Those types of items which are extra rare drops but over the course of time you’ll get 1-2 of em as a player simply don’t exist in the market hence as everyone able wants to have one.
Under normal circumstances we would be weeding out based on funds, with the absolutely filthy rich people being very very few… but we’re at the technical limit of Gold (and neither a compator-design like platinum coins and nor a exclusive currency option compressing the magnitude by 1000 ((2 listing limit instead of 2000 listing limit)) available) and hence everyone having reached that vie for the same individual item rather then the 5-10 most rich people having solely to opportunity… which means you cannot ‘reliably’ save up to those, it’s based on pure luck (which MG is supposed to remove, that’s what trading is for).
So I gotta heavily disagree with you on that point. I’ve repeated the same arguments with the same math and the same examples now since 1.0 and I’m sick of having this conversation with the same few people over and over which just have seemingly amnesia about it.
‘I don’t know if I agree with it… the premise of the topic.’ ‘I’ll not say it’s wrong, but I’ll not agree with it or not’
'There’ll always be a place where MG is stronger then CoF.**
Then he speaks about the power of it. Which yes… turning 400 potential useful items into a single ‘drop type’ (currency) is obviously extremely powerful.
Which I explained that there’s a turning point though when you got the limitations presented of the current system though, as I state in this post here above.
So no, the statement is not there.
There is no statement related to which is superior at which timeframe. There is only stated that MG ‘will always be superior in some area’ which… duh? Not the topic.
It only makes the cadence of item appearances better. It doesn’t change the ratio fundamentally.
Items beyond the limit of the market’s functionality were never available… and won’t ever be available. You could get solely lucky to see something being listed ‘just this moment’… or you don’t have that luck. The aspect which MG is supposed to remove, luck-based drops versus deterministic acquisition.
So also ‘no’, this is a fundamental misunderstanding on how playercount influences market behavior. All it does it smoothing the curve of time needed to make a sale. It gets more reliable and hence causes the reach of market-equilibrium to happen faster. The second thing it does is bringing the ‘problematic’ line of acquisition down as well, together with the ‘0’ equilibrium of value (abundance state) of gear. Meaning more items falls into the category of ‘we cannot acquire it without pure luck despite having the funds’ and less fall into ‘This item is worth absolutely nothing since 50 others have already listed it at minimum price possible’.
I didn’t wan’t this to become a discussion between CoF vs. MG. I don’t play MG, so my thought was that getting multi T7 is (theoretically) easier because you can just buy it and saw this happening in streams. But of course if there’s not enough supply and high demand that theory doesn’t hold. MG scales with amount of players.
Even if it is or isn’t easier to get multi T7 in CoF, it doesn’t really feel that way to me. Maybe I’m doing this wrong, but it is just a frustrating chore to me. A wall I can’t or don’t want to overcome because it is a boring playstyle. I see there’s theoretically so much more room upwards in my characters progression - the whole game teases you about it - but it is not reasonably achievable with “regular” playtime.
Be more specific. Do you mean character level, gear level (4x t5s, 1 t6, etc), corruption, etc?
Yes, I’ve never said it wasn’t.
I wouldn’t go that far, favour is a resource after all.
35% more items, 50% (ish?) more exalteds & x2 chance of a t7, so, x4 more t7s?
Almost like there’s not enough people playing MG for the market to function properly. It’s a pity this has never been mentioned before.
Because there aren’t enough people playing MG. If there were (like how the majority of the population in PoE don’t play SSF).
And the drop rate is up to 4.5% from Gaspar. If you’re at the point of wanting a 2lp Ravenous Void you’re not going to be burning RoA, that’d just be ridiculous.
Yes, because 1 in 1,932 RV drops is totally reasonable. At that frequency it’s raining men 2 lp RV… Even with an 11.25% drop chance, that’s still ~17k kills? If you’re willing to do that, more power to you, but please don’t tell me you think that’s an “achievable” drop rate. If it took 1 minute to kill Gaspar that’s almost 12 entire days straight (1932 / 0.1125 / 60 / 24 = 11.9 days) doing nothing but killing Gaspar, and, I hasten to add, not getting any more stability to run Gaspar for the third & subsequent time.
So, how “achievable” is that?
Yes, but they have to be useful t7s, just random t7s aren’t particularly useful (apart from possibly shards if they’re lacking).
As I said before (or would have if I’d have finished this rather than spending some time with my gf), it’s 50% chance to be an exalted, not 25% & t7s are 2x as likely. Plus don’t forget the 35% chance for twice as many items, which makes it ~4x more exalteds if my math’s right.
I know, that’s the closest to it I could find without spending hours (which I don’t want to, I have better things to do) searching for it on discord (I think). But that doesn’t change the fact that he said it. Just that I can’t find it.
Yes, but you’re complaining about the lack of items, not the “ratio”.
You mean the non-tradeable ones? Never said they were, but last I checked, uniques with LP aren’t untradeable (unless they’re dropped via CoF).
Yes, because there aren’t enough people playing MG. I’m confused as to why you seem to have such a hard time understanding this. If supply is increased then there’ll be more of the rarer items on the market. Isn’t that kinda economics 101, something which a qualified & experienced economist such as yourself would understand? How the supply is increased is a different kettle of fish entirely (either more people playing MG or higher drop rates).
Yes! Cause they’re to a degree correlated
Character progression and itemization progression are not completely aligned given some might speed through content and others take their time, hence dropping different quality of loot related to their level and playtime.
It’s about the itemization progression itself. Be it campaign, be it early monoliths, be it empowered, be it top-end corruption farming.
They need to align with the expected core audience during those stages, only as we get into empowered gradually shifting towards a higher expectation of engagement (hence more gaps between upgrades). The way itemization works it does that naturally anyway, but the issue is that the curve is not properly handled and there’s a ‘rift’ between normal itemization of campaign and the exalted situation.
Umh…? Wah?
You specifically said ‘More time efficient at the top-end’. And no, that isn’t present? It’s the other way around?
Which was what I pointed out.
Sure, but like common Affix shards… are they a limitation?
In MG buying items is not limited by favour, it’s selling of items. The miniscule amounts of favour needed to be farmed once basically don’t have any relevance.
Which is why I made my suggestions of the ‘power-level’-method in the MG related topics, to have a proper scaling for needed effort.
So… people provide those items for 2k Gold, the favour is of no relevance as you have it by the time you get Rank 3, so the first items are basically just ‘free upgrades’ at that point. Which is OP.
Comparatively CoF doesn’t have that, they’re struggling with itemization as their Ranks are not really providing much relevant to the content they run yet.
No… that’s again misappropriated. It plays into the magnitude of the issue… but this issue has existed at any time outside of 1.0.
Why not 1.0? Because people had no damn clue how rare community-wide specific stuff is and things were listed willy-nilly.
But given we’ve had top-tier engagement afterwards still at 1.2 in the game this should’ve happened there again… but didn’t. 150k, even if only 50k went MG it is a more then sufficing amount for a functioning market.
How many players do you want to have before the market functions? A million?
Why did PoE’s market function back when there were only 30k-40k player peak?
So no, it cannot be pushed towards market participation as the major reasoning.
Not to speak that the acquisition vs. demand ratio won’t change substantially, as explained.
You don’t get the gist behind it, do you?
Is it reasonable to farm up a natural Mageblood drop in PoE? No?
But many people get it anyway.
As stated it’s solely about the point of where you get ‘a extra rare usable drop’ of some kind.
The cadence for this to happen is - obviously - higher for CoF, as it has to be. But the magnitude of that is too high.
Since it doesn’t happen reliably community-wide in MG this means there are no listing happening. Obviously. No stock means no sale.
You simply don’t see those items. The sheer amount of multiplicative measures working into the CoF loot situation is so extreme that it counteracts what you describe… hence the community wide equialization of supply/demand, how the items are spread out between those wanting one and those having one available which they don’t want.
Yep, and it isn’t better then the ~83k kills which MG needs comparatively?
That’s exactly what I’m talking about, it’s not ‘50% more drops’ for CoF… the methods cause it to become extreme comparatively.
Every 4 players getting a 2 LP one for CoF means 1 drops for MG. It’s a nigh universally wanted item, most builds need it, which is why I’ve taken it as the example. So with 10000 players playing we’ll likely see every week 1 dropping for MG in total and 4 for CoF in total.
We imagine (for the sake of the example simply) that everyone wants one!
So now ‘market satiation’ after 1 week is 0,01% for MG and 0,04% for CoF.
Both obviously atrocious (extremely rare item) in chance.
But now we gotta think the step further, CoF ownership doesn’t change… so individual acquisition is obviously put higher. But MG ownership changes… once (and that’s important).
So, now how can we math it out which one has a higher chance to ever be in possession of this item?
We take the rate of acquisition… and then double it for MG, that’s all needed to be done. We have a 100% community need after all, so everone wants it.
So every week 0,02% (at absolute best) of the playerbase can own a 2 LP one in MG while 0,04% do in CoF.
That’s your chance of acquisition every single week for said item as a player doing the exact medium amount to get one.
To either drop or acquire one through the market in MG hence you need to play the game for 33 Years to have a 50% chance to ever have owned one for a second.
In CoF it’s around 66 Years for the 50% chance.
So yes CoF has a higher chance to ever see this item. That’s the simple reality.
What you’re talking about is situations where market satiation of any degree can happen.
For that to happen there need to be a condition though, which we state as: If the item can be listed at a price where only 1 person can obtain it.
That’s the minimum possible market satiation. Otherwise there is never a satiation happening at all. And if it’s higher then ‘1’ then that means we don’t have equilibrium achieved, hence you gamble with others for the outcome.
This is not ‘allowed’ as a design for a market. A functioning market has to have a specific position for every item in it. That has specific parameters which need to exist.
Those are:
The total produced items in a timeframe.
The highest individual procurring resources to exchange with for the item in a timeframe.
The total amount of the resource being procurred in a timeframe from everyone.
So, that leads to a situation where we get a number of ‘max resources available’ by the wealthiest individual in the market cycle.
The precise number of the current ‘market equilibrium’. (Obviously there’s more metrics behind it with several not visible and hence not possible to be mathed out precisely, but for the base premise it suffices with it.)
So - as example - we say this leads to ‘Ravenous Void’ 2 LP to come to a specific price-point of 10000 ‘value’ to the dot.
That means when it’s listed for 10001 it won’t be sold as the buyer misses ‘1’ value, they can’t afford it. No ‘Equilibrium’ possible.
And it means if listed at 9999 value then you can have the position of potentially 2 individuals vieing for it, hence not ‘Equilibrium’ anymore.
That’s how you get buy orders and sell orders in a stock market for example. Every single individual having a buy order is below the equilibrium, there is no supply for the demand.
Every single individual having a sell order is above the equilibrium. There is so much supply that it’s above value.
You need to have the potential of both positions existing for a market. Then it’s pure demand/supply.
You can only remove the ‘above equilibrium’ situation functionally. This is what MG has going on. The value of the item is higher then the technical limit of absolute maximum value.
This then causes a layer of luck to be introduced rather then one of effort vs. reward. And a market is there to remove a layer of luck otherwise seen. This counters the removed layer of luck in a absolute manner which means possibility of ownership is now near identical with possibility of production-rate.
If we get 2 items produced and over time you would’ve every week the chance of the acquisition of 2 items potentially. So your chance to get it through the market as you and everyone else ‘at worst-case scenario’ own the technical limit of value after a respective amount of passed time means 2 people drop it every week… and hence 2 are sold every week… which still makes your chance of every owning one for a second the same as CoF.
That is the absolute end-line for MG’s progression.
It means everything is at a pure limitation basis already… and only then we are identical in chance with CoF. The worst-case scenario for acquisition rate in CoF is the best-case acquisition rate for MG in this case.
That means the probability for CoF is set too high at the upper end. As it takes into consideration that 100% of people need it… but also 100% of people are willing to sell it (while paradoxically needing it) solely to achieve the potential maximum amount of people ever even seeing one.
Example above shows why the ratio has meaning for the lack of items.
Re-trade (hence total availability of items to players playing) and technical Gold limit. You can do with one of em removed in some way.
There is no current playercount possible to achieve this situation.
You could’ve 1 Billion players and it still wouldn’t happen as it’s limited by other mechanics interplaying for the market.
No, that’s 50% of ‘Economics 101’.
Supply is half the situation… demand exists too.
If supply and demand raise at the exact same percentage then the rate of access for said item also stays the same.
Imagine it like this: Instead of a ratio you got actually time.
If demand is 100 to 1 supply this can be exchanged simply into a timeframe. Hence it’s available 1 second out of 100 seconds.
You don’t know when this second happens, it’s random.
So now you get a single click to succeed inside those 100 seconds. If you click at the 1 second you get your reward… otherwise out of pure RNG you don’t.
If we increase the count of players and hence get 1000 demand but 10 supply… it’s now every 10 second per 1000 seconds.
Which is the same as 1 second out of 100 seconds. Identical functionality.
So you individually have the same chance to acquire the item no matter the playercount.
Item will drop at the same rate. You seeing it at the market and being able to buy it is the same chance.
The only difference now is if it’s listed in the timeframe to look at it or if you compete against others also looking out for it. That’s all.
If something isn’t listed for 5 years since not enough player are active to make listings… or if you need 5 years to be the first one seeing a listing and accepting at first of everyone possibly wanting it makes no difference. In both cases you need 5 years to get it.
So this returns us to Acquisition ratio between factions. Since we have a significant difference in production rate and a miniscule upside for acquisition chance from the market it means combined the chance for a pure-drop in CoF is better then any means of MG. for those items.
And as mentioned above.
To solve this: Gold Limit removal in some way. Then the value of items reflects the listing price. 100 billion because uber-rare? Then it’s 100 billion.
Since now your effort is the limitation you don’t rely on luck. As that would make it equivalent in outcome with CoF, mandating that there is no major upside comparatively.
The same as what MG’s issue is with access of early upgrades. It’s the same problem on the low-end and the top-end depending on where you see it from. MG is significantly superior early-game (which mandates adjustments to not be ‘significant’) and CoF is significantly superior late-game (which also mandates adjustments to not be ‘significant’).
The whole endgame loop is a mess. Let’s leave the campaign out because it’ a lost cause anyway.
Most of normal monos are dead weight and forcing yourself through them to reach emp monos is a big mess of a concept to begin with.
To me it would be nice if you reach xyz C in a normal mono you are allowed to empower it so you don’t have to hustle trough the same crap 2 times. Empowering it resets C to a set C level that is baseline empowered scaling but you keep your web so you can grind C in a more worthwhile way instantly. So the reuse of crappy content woul feel far less bad to me personaly and I won’t feel like I played normal monos for nothing outside of getting some levels more and maybe one or two items.
The whole loop needs to be faster and smoother without playing content just to play the same content again.
You do know I quoted the bit I was replying to don’t you? If you want to go full clown-mode, you do you, but please try & pay attention to what the other person is saying.
For CoF, which is what we were talking about, yes. Prophecies aren’t free. Again, please pay attention to what the other person is saying.
MG wasn’t being discussed at that part of the conversation. Personally, I scroll up to see the full text of what was replied to rather than just rely on the actual quote because there’s this thing called “context”.
What, the comment that you don’t believe was made is being taken out of context? Ok bub!
Unless you’re using that term in a way that others don’t. So what do you mean by “misappropriated”?
Calling well under half the average players (36k for 1.2 in Apr 25 v 81k in Aug 24) is a bit disingenuous IMO. I guess by that standard 1.3 had damn close to “top-tier” engagement as well since it had not too far off the same decline. And you skipped one league.
Because everyone was forced to play it, thr currency earned was being removed from the economy, people had several years experience with their specific market (pricing, rarity, etc). Why do you think PoE’s market was working back then & how many of those same conditions are/are not met in LE?
Yes, because the 5 people playing MG are sufficient for a functional market.
That’s sarcasm BTW.
So you just don’t want non-traders to have an enjoyable time, ok, gotcha. You know there’s a game that already does that.
If you don’t wamt to do the maths, that’s fine, I did it for you in the previous post, it’s about 4x as many drops for exalts & 2.5x for boss drops. I don’t know about German, but that’s not really “extreme”, as I said, if you want to spend *almost 12 entire days of just farming a single boss without taking into account any time to farm stability to farm said boss so things like sleeping and eating * you do you. Just because it’s 2.5x faster for CoF doesn’t make it the reasonable proposition that you say it is.
17k x 2.5 = 42.5, not 83k.
I am aware of that, I did the maths which it feels that you ignored, it’s roughly 4x for exalts, for boss drops it’s 2.5x. 2.5x of a really small number is still a really freaking small number, comparatively or not.
Maybe you’re used to things being balanced to within a Gnatt’s chuff, but where I come from that’s not “extreme” so you can stop reacting like it’s raining 2lp RV or Red Rings for CoF players.
Nope, it’s only 2.5x 2lp RV isn’t an exalted item so it won’t benefit from the general or exalted drop modifiers. Also, you need to show your workings to support an assertion.
Oh, the horror, imagine people that can’t trade not being quite as brutally fucked over by rng as people that can trade! Won’t sonebody think of the children tradelords economy!!!
MG, obviously, 'cause those 10k other traders have a small chance of dropping one while that 1 CoF player has to drop it themself.
Nope. It’s not BiS for every build, or even necessarily many builds (just how many builds have any flavour of RV in them on LETools?). So your maths fails at the first hurdle.
Ravenous Void is showing on 0.8% of builds on LETools, which is the only thing we have to see how popular something is. So, yeah, clearly “everybody” wants it.
Given that your maths is based on a false premise, no.
Only because you don’t have enough MG players. Your entire argument appears to be based around the false assumption that every MG player wants the highest rarity item, but they don’t.
4 times of failing to follow the conversation from your side… sorry to say.
The first was specifically started because you stated MG is more time efficient at the top-end and I argued against it.
The second was literally quoted from a paragraph which directly states it to be about MG…
The third was directly related to the second… so yeah… yeah it was about MG.
Fourth is there not being enough people, which you position as the main cause, which I state it is not as a decent market-environment works ‘decent’ still with only 5k people, especially with the lack of variety of items present in the game comparatively to competition.
Did it have more then 10-15k players?
Yes?
Ok, it’s enough to let a market function, easily so.
So there you actively talk against yourself now?
‘The reason is too few people are playing’ → ‘So why does it work in the other game?’ → ‘Cause the currency is removed’.
I mean… I dunno… but you lost the plot inside the plot you tried to paint there.
Also ‘forced to participate’ is absolute bollocks plainly spoken, the vast majority of people even playing the PoE trade-league don’t use trade. That’s been revealed in dev streams from GGG already that the participation of trade even inside the trade league is very low (I think it was somewhere around 10% but forgot, just remember veeery low).
Ok… now you’re actively getting disgusting… but I’m used to those nonsensical premises from you at times.
So I’ll simply ask a question:
How is it intellectually adequate to make such a nonsensical statement without any substance when someone speaks specifically about the scope of the execution of a potentially well-working core-function that’s just been atrociously executed?
You’re kinda disappointing me with the lack of quality in your post this time, I’m not used to that. I’m more used to disagreeing on a premise… not… this nonsense you’re starting to showcase there.
Because you don’t quite use the percentiles there right.
The 4x isn’t quite true actually, that’s the problem.
We drop a substantial reduced amount of exalteds compared to rares, even in high corruption. The number there shifts as we progress as rarity uses more drops to become better quality compared to before, but it’s not so extreme to get to a turning point.
First off… the amount of rare items is substantially higher then exalteds, obviously so. I think it’s around 1 to 8 or so in 400c.
Then secondly we have around a 6 to 1 ratio of T6 to T7 as well.
The effects we have is 35% more items (flat 35% effeciency boost, kinda what CoF needs to stay ahead of MG already, plus a few extras).
Then we have the most severe one… 25% of rares become exalted items. So… while MG drops 1 exalted item we have comparatively 8x1,35=10,8 rares. With every 4th becoming exalted.
So CoF suddenly gets 3,5 exalted items in the same timeframe, which already is 250% more. At that point it’s adequately even with MG math-wise actually. Here a rough equilibrium is achieved.
But that’s not all, is it?
We still got 50% exalted Affix chance (which is not the same as rare to exalted upgrade). That one works when the item has already been made exalted, it’s about creating not 1 T6… but a 2 T6 item, this is the outrageous one which completely shifts the progression rate comparatively up by a whole tier for the factions.
1,5 times that means instead of not the 250% but instead a 375% chance already. It’s not additive here. Same as the T7 chance, which is flat out doubled, so each upgrade is doubled as well. Which makes it a 750% difference, 7,5 times. Not 4 times.
I went with your 4 times solely because even then the number is too much for interfaction balance to uphold.
But if you wanna nitpick about ‘the scale is not extreme’ then I’ll start nitpicking back.
Also you seem to have a extremely skewed view of what is ‘extreme’ in outcome.
A 100% difference in HP is extreme. A 100% difference in damage is extreme. So how the heck wouldn’t a 100% difference in loot acquisition rate be?
Since it’s universally applied it’s making a grind of 10 hours into 1 and a quarter… and that is a very extreme difference.
Yes, that’s why it gets - from the boss farm, not the random drop - a 500% chance to appear. 250% chosen from loot table, double LP chance meaning 250%*2= 500%.
Actually scratch that… Rank 1 causes that to be affected as well, bosses can drop double rewards as they indeed are enemies. Hence 500%*1,35 = 675%.
Yeah, so both are fucked over, right?
One side even more, right?
To get a proper baseline we hence need to remove the top-layer issues hiding the bottom layer issues as some people clearly lack the ability to find root causes unless all the chaff is entirely thrown to the side.
Wrong Simple as that.
First you complain I didn’t write down math.
Then you went along writing down wrong math for all examples.
And now you ignore math since it’s very obviously not in your favor.
If you wanna nitpick stay consistent at least.
Oh for fucks sake, stop being excessively incompetent. That’s beyond sad now.
Did I state for the sake of the example. Oh wait… I even did repeatedly state it. And you still couldn’t comprehend it.
What are you doing?
You usually argue decently… but this time you didn’t just drop the ball… you skewered it while dropping it.
And since MG has vastly less drops (but you also don’t need a chunk of what is usable for other builds, which makes it partially up again) you still don’t get it in the end, the prices are so extreme for decent bases to try and craft them that you’ll play for a much longer time in most 2 T7 cases… if even a single item for a single try is available in the first place.
Even with an 11.25% drop chance, that’s still ~17k kills? If you’re willing to do that, more power to you, but please don’t tell me you think that’s an “achievable” drop rate. If it took 1 minute to kill Gaspar that’s almost 12 entire days straight (1932 / 0.1125 / 60 / 24 = 11.9 days) doing nothing but killing Gaspar, and, I hasten to add, not getting any more stability to run Gaspar for the third & subsequent time.