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[Ranking Poll] Biggest Issues from EHG Design Philosophies

This is my post from Reddit, but in case some of you aren’t on there… I’m posting it here :slight_smile: Reddit Link

Hey guys! Some of us got together and made a list of some of the issues that are a result of certain design philosophies or are not going to change because of them. I know there is stuff probs missed, if anything big let me know and we can discuss it. Ultimately wanted to see how everyone gauged each of these issues with a concise list and ranking them. Please fill it out and let’s discuss. http://www.polljunkie.com/poll/fdckrm/biggest-issues-from-ehg-design-philosophies

Here is an explanation on each of the options in the poll for those who might not understand.

  • Stun - just overall the mechanic and how it feels in the game/ways to build for it
  • LP Rarity/Weighting - how they currently gauge the Legendary Potential rolls on items some being near impossible (or actually impossible)
  • No Companion Skills While Transformed - No access to skills on companions while transformed even though there is support for them in those trees
  • Companion Revival Mechanic - The process of having to stand in a circle to revive companions with little alternatives
  • Arena Echoes/Disparity In Echo Times - Certain echo types are far longer than others, this was found out by some via testing. It’s mostly Arena Echoes and how many waves you have to do
  • Dummy/DPS Meters - Being able to accurately track damage dealt in a period of time
  • Stacking Keys - May not be secluded to just keys but not being able to stack them in anyway
  • Skills Without Attack Speed Scaling - Skills like Dancing Strikes, Shield Bash, and Tempest Strike, the philosophy of removing scaling for a skill w/ little to no benefit
  • Poison Vs Other Ailments - Poison having this inherent shred puts it way above other ailments and is really the only one capable of competing with crit builds
  • No Movement Skill (Spriggan) - The idea behind not giving a default movement skill or one that’s on par with others because of thematic design (or gating behind Uniques)
  • Crafting Mats to Inventory - glyphs/shards/runes not just going straight to their respective inventory spaces and you having to click a button to do that
  • Minion HP Decay Mechanic - current implementations on minions like Warith/Abomination/etc. without much to counter it, don’t last long enough for later content
  • Set Items - They were weak before and now with Legendaries even less important, pretty much useless outside of a couple specific builds or sets
  • Block/Bastion - Block has been pretty busted in previous patches, and now the problem has been exacerbated with Bastion
  • No Auto-casting - They want to design skills around not being able to auto-cast them and instead actively use them, some don’t want that, some do.
  • Snapshotting - The ability to snapshot gear for minions/transforms/DoTs/etc. in some cases this is really bad and they’ve as far as we know intentionally allowed this. Idk if they’ve decided they will fix or not, but it is a problem currently.
  1. Set Items - The buffs to set items simply were not enough to “keep” them competitive, they weren’t competetive to begin with in most cases. Even by keeping the set buffs and allowing LP, they still would only be useable in some cases.
  2. Arena Echoes/Disparity In Echo Times - Arena Echoes should only have +/- 1 Arena Waves Disparity; Regular echo layouts needs to be looked at. Sometimes a single spire or patrouling mob is literally 1 screen away from spawn point and sometimes you have 3 spires or patrouling mobs across the layout (and some lay outs are HUGE). That is literally +/-5 minutes difference sometimes.
  3. Snapshotting - I hate it, I don’t want it, get rid of it entirely
  4. Dummy/DPS Meters - I don’t want a precise dps meter, only different dummies to gauge builds based on rough TTK’s
  5. No Auto-casting - I don’t care how many skills allow some form of auto-casting, as long as there are enough alternatives and more rewarding alternative ways and 24/7 auto-casting is not the best way to utilize a skill

Only these 5 are actual issues for me.
Every single other point on this list is a complete non-issue for me.

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Yeah, not everything is going to be an issue for everyone. We just thought of ones that were brought up a lot or especially noticeable. I like your added points! Definitely can agree with them. Interesting to see how people prioritize some of these issues and really interesting to see which ones are common for most peeps.

What is really important for me personally here is:

Set Items is the first thing, were I just absolutely disagree with EHG’s sentiment.
They stated multiple times, that they deliberately didn’t want to include set items in the Legendary System.

Since I joined the LE community in April '19, I have never ever had a hard disagreement with anything EHG did or stated.

All of the other points I mentioned here are very likely to be looked at and changed anyway sooner or later.

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I can´t use you poll because many of “issues” aren´t issues for me. Here is list of what i´d like to change

Arena Echoes/Disparity In Echo Times - Heavy´s answer
Stacking Keys - stack them
Crafting Mats to Inventory - send them to forge directly
Set Items - they are weak but they can´t be like sets in D3
Snapshotting - I don´t like it especialy on minion build

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BIG agree! They weren’t that strong before and even as legendaries they wouldn’t be.

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What do you think of the shattered Lance and Corsair set?

Both sets offer unique build enabling bonuses. I think that might be a good showcase of what to expect from sets in the future.

I definitely don’t say every set is crap, but some need way to much work to make them work decently.

There are quite a few sets that are really interesting. Most of them are still niche and that’s ok, but some are just unuseable past empwoered monolith.

Some examples of sets that are ok-ish would be your two mentioned sets and Vilatria’s.
But they are still outshined by very good rolled 2 or 3 LP Uniques, which is not realistic to get for every single build.
But what bothers me is, that most sets can be used early on but to push them into very high endgame, there is not even the potential there for them to become great.

Even if the LP chance is lower compared to Uniques, I woudl be fine.

I just want a reason to at least look at them, when they drop.

Generally speaking the LP system makes loot so much more exciting, because you always want to at least look at uniques that drop.
Sets don’t have that.

To name a few of the sets, that I would like to use, but that are simply not viable past like 200 Corruption for most buidls would be:

  • Isadora’s
  • Gaspar’s
  • Forgotten Knight
  • Zerrick’s

Especially Isadora’s and Forgotten Knight have 1 individual item, that is like SUPER strong, but the set as a whole is just bad.

I totally get, that they don’t want to make set bonuses to powerful, but I think they should shift power from some of those individual items towards set bonuses a little more.
But also improve the overall power of all thsoe sets or give them LP.

2 Likes

Nice summary forgot Pebble’s tho :wink:

I have to concur on these points entirely although I have no idea how to snapshot something even though I’m currently playing a Beastmaster Storm Crow build, I don’t have a numpad on my Gaming Laptop, and I really dont feel the need to download a 3rd party tool (AHK) to spam 1 skill when it isn’t necessarily needed up 100% of the time anyhow to gain some sort of QoL edge. If anything I will wait for an internal change to hotkeys and perhaps EHG will allow for an in-game auto-cast feature if that’s what they think would be good for the overall health of the game, but not holding my breathe on that one.

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Hope they add them in a more active way with conditionals and procs! It seems that is the direction they will head. And who knows Enchant Weapon has an auto-cast node in it :stuck_out_tongue: but it’s old so they will likely remove it on a rework.

Mike has said they do design certain lazy passives like enchant weapon on purpose. its okay to have passive stuff I think IF it comes at the cost of power in the ability. Autocasting bypasses this balance which is why they try and fix it as best they can.

I think snapshotting for me at first was a clear “Its dumb dont have it” but for stuff like abomination it makes gearing and playing it so much better that for me it feels like certain skills need to be buffed if they are going to remove snapshotting. Currently the only minion I see anyone really snapshotting is abomination, and while you can play an okay non-snapshot abomination, I think abom still needs work and can be improved.

Certainly need more set buffs. I think currently to me shattered lance is the only set that is actually good. Even the vilitrias set to me falls off, you use staff and helm, and mage does not have as much inbuilt attributes as say rogue or acolyte that if you use any other unique gear you have to hit INT on it or the set is worse then just using a better staff and helmet.

I dont know if they should get LP, but they need something that makes each set drop interesting be its own unique set based mechanics or better baseline stats with high variance so you chase “good” rolls.

All those specific points aside, I actually think my biggest issue currently is corruption. I think corruptions is a poor way to handle “infinite” scaling, and things like PoEs delve and chronicons entire endgame system are much better ways to deal with it.

Chronicon offers the player Endless “map” style of play and any time you beat difficulty X, you can go to difficulty X+1, and there is a way to skip tiers etc. once you have unlocked a level, you can go up or down as you see fit with a slider.

Monos currently have a problem since mods are “snapshot” to a degree, “shit I got some really bad damage mods, let me lower corruption to 100 and clear these then bump it back to 300” would be a potential problem.

But something has to change, I dont actually mind the grind it takes to get to high corruption, I just dont like that I cant go back to default corruption without extremely tedious downgrading which is somehow even slower then upgrading.

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Definitely agree with your input! Yeah, snapshotting is gonna be a rough one, if they ever decide to tackle it and work out a solution. I know they’ve made some changes, like reapplying stats on load and such. I’m sure they will achieve it though, just gonna take some time.

Oh yeah corruption is a whole other ball game and I think that is something they will work on. Mono has only improved since conception. I think the initial and current designs have been in the right direction, so I didn’t include it. The system is very modular and with things like MP coming, I think that would be the best time to make it scale account-wide vs. each character.

Hard to order a poll like this because of the more specific items that I may personally not have “tested” enough to have an opinion on so this is likely to skew your data and subsequent conclusions… I filled out your poll, but I have never played spriggan so I have no idea how bad the lack of movement is so I put that as least annoying… for someone else it might be the most…

It may be more useful to stick to more general items that virtually everyone would have experienced like Stun, Autocast, Set Items etc… and then put the specific things like Spriggan/Primalist/Minion decay elsewhere…

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My two cents:

Stun : Is certainly different, and powerful both for monsters and players. However the only issue I see is stun avoidance (and hybrid) as is it now, is a waste of an affix, should be something much more poweful you may want to invest occasionally.

LP Rarity/Weighting: I’m OK with it.

No Companion Skills While Transformed: Can’t say much as I didn’t play much with druid, but something for sure to look at.

Arena Echoes/Disparity In Echo Times: Not an issue, I expect more thing to do while pushing though a mono in the future, and better loading times (and optimization in general BTW).

Dummy/DPS Meters: Agree: a great way to try our builds and showcasing, a dummy with empowered monolith type resistances/defenses for a better understanding of our power well be very nice.

Stacking Keys: QoL i don’t care that much.

Skills Without Attack Speed Scaling: I think this is a big issue, some skills are left far behind due to the lack of proper scaling, I experienced it with Dancing Strikes, trying to make it worth at endgame, and refered to it in this post:

https://forum.lastepoch.com/t/feedback-balance-request-based-on-my-blade-dancer-experience/47417/2

Poison Vs Other Ailments: Not a big issue, maybe some cap or diminishing returns at shred or negative resistances and that’s it, bleed is still very powerful.

No Movement Skill (Spriggan): Agree, specially if you want to be spriggan permanently.

Crafting Mats to Inventory: Not a big deal, in fact, current state suits me quite well, I do it once, before starting a new mono, or when I am in town, and is a good way, as I get message of full inventory, next town visit/before next mono I empty my inventory.

Minion HP Decay Mechanic: I don’t see an issue, is a design choice.

Set Items: I feel they are falling in the same place of D2, and is a bad place to be: Extremely niche 10% and you must build around them, 90% for levelling/useless. I would defenitivy want to see more love into them, without making them BiS, of course. Is very hard to fit them in current gear progression, I can see however, less of an opportunity cost with good suporting affixes so you don’t lose so much against a T20 with desired affixes, after all you lose a LOT of flexibility using a set, also the set effect should be something unique and could be a build deffining effect. I feel they try to get those right but they end falling too short.

Block/Bastion: Bastion of honor is just too powerful, also because how the game is designed, you have a much easier time getting the offense for 300 corruption than getting the defenses, so is just a perfect fit in too many builds, even without LP.

No Auto-casting: Yeah, this should be a thing for certain skills, being able to just left-click or press it for a few secs to auto-cast it when not in town would be a nice addition.

Snapshotting: I don’t see a issue here. If we are able to do so with certain skills is nice, if not, well, is up to developers.

For Dancing Strikes specifically, it gains 1% more damage per 3% increased attack speed, so it does scale with attack speed, just not how you’re expecting it, plus it scales with cooldown instead, not that you can get much of that.

You can reduce Dancing Strikes cooldown, using “% increased cooldown recovery speed”.

Getting from 0.7 sec cooldown to 0.6 makes this skill feel very different already.
And obviously also boosts it’s damge qutie a bit.

I’m fully aware of both properties, still, is not enough to keep up with other skills. 33% more multiplier vs other skills that get 100% more in the form of just more speed animation, with the added benefit of more consistent damage, is not comparable.

Yeah with cooldown recovery you get a bit better performance, I always have cooldown on helmet because it also helps with shift and smoke bomb uptime, so for me is pretty much mandatory. But again, just as other skills get less cooldown out of it is not a big improvement, not that you can stack cooldown recovery other than 13-14% on helmet anyways.

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It’s still valid, just looking for a general idea. I don’t expect to have a perfect result, especially using a free online poll generator.

Randos participating in online poll with skewed bias opinion?

Nice effort though

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