Pre purchase suggestions based on negative reviews

I’m quite looking forward to buying Last Epoch, I’m mildly tentative about the purchase based on negative reviews and criticism in the Steam discussion pages, my main three concerns are as follows.

  1. Hotbar/active ability limitations:
    What’s keeping me from buying the game is I’ve heard there’s a 3/5 ability hotbar and no way to map more? I feel developers could start just giving us XML files for UIs, and letting us map our own number of hotbars, and keys for the hotbars. I’m okay with having 4-14 hotbars, shift+1-10 changing primary hotbar, and 1-10, ctrl+1-10, alt+1-10, and maybe f1-f10 all being assignable as abilities. Yes I have played games (older mmorpgs like Everquest) where I had 40 to 100 mapped abilities that all had individual cooldowns, so monitoring them simultaneously meant I needed 40 visible hotbar slots to enjoyably play the game, but I needed to mod the xml so that that number of hotbar slots didn’t take up too much screen real-estate. It’s the one thing I don’t like about outriders right now, only 3 abilities, and it feels like developers do this these days to appease controller players, instead of thinking “Hey lets team up with logitech, sony, and microsoft and create a controller with a numpad on the inside of the right wing, like a good gaming mouse has on the thumb side, so controller users can have 12 more keys that take no extra effort”. Hell, thumbnumbpad on mouse is easier to use and play with than reaching for the number keys, middle-finger numpad on the back of a controller that’s the same size would similarly be great for abilities with cooldowns that you don’t need to be twitch-spamming. So in a game that might have pet classes and/or transformation classes like Last Epoch, I would definitely want to have more than just 5 abilities. As a systems analyst/combat encounter designer, I understand the possible balance issues of allowing players access to more skills, but that’s where cooldowns and shared cooldowns come in, which I’ve heard are already in place. Also in an ARPG, no further steps really need to be taken, Diablo 3 finally stopped caring about balance and became a thousand times more fun to play when they just started throwing ridiculously high multipliers on sets, and more and more stacking bonuses were made available to players. The active skill limit however is one of the reasons I don’t go back to the game anymore. There’s only so many combinations of active skills with such a small pool, that are viable and fun.

  2. Negative feedback about lack of multiplayer

I understand that it’s on the roadmap, I’ve heard other people’s concerns in the negative reviews and steam forum, and rebuttals to those reviews. The only part of the debate that interested me was balance. To me, balance should be based on difficulty sliders that are independent of one another, that are configurable by a host/leader in a game. Some games give you a single difficulty slider, ala Torment, or World Level, in Diablo 3 or Outriders for example. If the game were to be four player coop for example, I propose 4 sliders:
Population, 1 to 4 times as many monsters in spawn clusters,
Health, mobs have 1 to 4 times as much health,
Elite Representation, elites/minibosses/bosses have 1 to 16 times as much chance to be in any given spawn location,
Enemy Damage, enemies do 1 to 4 times as much damage.
Each slider should be impactful to things like resources earned, xp earned, magicfind/rare drop rate. That way even a solo player can crank everything up to 4 times difficulty beyond whatever the settings are for whatever difficulty level or playthrough they are on. (Good old /players 8 from Diablo 2).

  1. Loot abundance/rendering lag reduction.
    I’ve heard great things about the in game filter, I think one more QoL step is to add a toggle that either prevents the loot below the rarity from dropping, or converts that loot instantly to whatever resource(s) are present in the game, such as currency, or materials that could be gained from breaking down the loot if there is a dismantling system.

How are you going to give feedback on a game you’ve not even bought/played yet? Incredibly presumptuous.

  1. There are a limited amount of skills because the skills each have extensive passive trees, and your build is comprised of how you set up your toolbar and how you build those skills. There is no need for any more hotkeys, maybe 1 or two additional would be nice but no you shouldn’t be running around using every single skill a class has, and it would be far from optimal to do so.

  2. Multiplayer is coming, and there is no magic find in LE This isn’t Diablo 3, it’s a smarter and more well-built game. Nobody wants LE to have Diablo 3 mechanics.

  3. This is just laziness… If you want to convert loot to whatever resources exist, pick it up and use the dismantling rune. This post is so confusing, on the one hand, you want to use 50 hotkeys but on the other, you want to just run through content while shit just randomly appears in your inventory without having to lift a finger? Wut?

Why don’t you go play the game, play with the hotkeys available, use the loot filter, watch the multiplayer release video, and then come back and give feedback on the experience you had, not some random reviews?

Confusing to base feedback on other peoples reviews anyways, because we all have different expectations and experiences. Not to mention that LE has an 85% positive review score, which is really high.

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So much this. For the me 5 buttons to press is the absolute maximum due to having arthritis and find it hard to reach keys or use a fancy mouse. I don’t mind the lack of multiplayer as I play solo, but sliders as a way to balance it? Nah, I’ll pass. And then the abundance of loot and lag caused by it… well never had that issue. I only get loot related lag if an item drops directly under my mouse and the game tries to open the tooltip while item is still the process of dropping.

  1. Problem: Giving a rats ass about Steam revies.

There are some streamers who play the game and even if you get a straight not nice answer from time to time this community is awesome and that’s why I’ll answer your questions you got from Steam reviews.

  1. Steam revies are the devil!

Ok on a more serious note:

We have a limited action set for a lot of reasons. The most obvious is: There are only 5 skill specialisations ingame and only 5 hotbars. The devs came up with this number for balancing reasons. Using not specialised skills is like peeing in the ocean, at the end of the day it don’t matter.
You may like an useless ammount of buttons to press but the average player is okay with 5 or even one with 10 passive aura skills. If you realy look for something complicated and a lot of buttons and switching inbetween… well buy a piano but not LE.

There is no lack of MP MP just isn’t in the game yet but will be this year according to a dev stream. If people review a game negativly because something isn’t there and the title is an EA game… well steam reviews… back to point 1 and 2.

Well there is no magic fairy ingame that shatters loot into shards they’ve been all killed in every timeline because noone liked it when they shattered exalted items. You can pickup what you want and use “Runes of shattering” to get some of the shards from said items but there is no automisation on it. The loot filter is a good beginning but there is some feedback already and people wish for more options.

You should ask yourself one thing:

Do you want to invest into a game made by Devs that don’t talk shit? Don’t hide or talk in politicansprech to hide flaws? Who interact with the community almost 24/7 and are open for feedback and suggestions?
LE is a solid ARPG with possibly hundrets of hours of replay value if you like to play different classes and masteries. This game already offers more content then some other full released games on the market.

Just leave the steam reviews and look for videos or streams or look at this topic from time to time.

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Having 5 skills on the bar is not a technical restriction, but a design decision. The game is balanced around that.

Multiplayer will come later and propably also be balanced in some kind.

Loot system is balanced and tweaked for years now. Lootfilter is doing a good job in filtering. No need to prevent loot from dropping when you can filter it.

I’m with @Arundel here. I find it a bit confusing that you make suggestions without even having played the game, based on negative steam reviews. That’s not a solid base for that, imho.

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I personally think steam review are a bad paltform to judge a game.

You give extensive opinions here without ever trying the game.
I think this is not helpful.

Just go ahead and try the game, EHG offers 48 hrs no questions ask refund and steam also has a refund option.

Some quick thoughts on your points:

This is a design decision.

Every single skill in LE can be tailroed heavily to your liking.
And creativity blooms from restriction.

With more skills build variety would actualy decrease, since alot of utility/defensive skills would take over while you still have maybe 1 or 2 “main” dmg skills.

We don’t know anything about EHG’s plans for multiplayer balancing yet.
But i don’t think we as player will be able to “configure out own difficulty” so detailed.

This would not work well in an online/economy. It would just split the community.

We alrady have 4 different communities (sc, hc, solo sc and solo hc)

There is already a mechanic in LE, that lets you break down gear with desired affixes to gain their affix shards for your own crafting use.

There is no need for any automated dismanteling, that would just not fit.
That’s the thin about loot based games: You can’t take everything with you, you need to make chocies and filter.

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I have a pet peeve about people who assume having to choose a limited number of skills from a larger pool of known skills is all about controllers or consoles - it isn’t. It’s about introducing a new layer of build choice where you need to make decisions.

I’m an old guy who has played a lot of old MMOs with bloated hotbars sometimes with even different levels of the same skill for mana efficiency (early WOW) and boy am I ever glad those days are mostly over.

I even found the more streamlined modern WoW version when I went back to it for a bit last fall to check out Shadowlands clunky and cumbersome compared to modern MMOs like ESO that use the much better “decide what t use from the menu of what you know” system.

So… boomer here who believers those “more tactical” bloated hot bars deserve to die and stay dead :slight_smile:

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Do you understand that the whole action bar layout, how many skills you can have in there and how many skills you can specialize in with your character is a fundamental design issue. LE has FIVE skills you can specialize in, meaning that you will almost certainly use those skills you have specialized in. This is not WoW where you can have 40 action bar slots (Piano build) for skills, potions, usable items etc. In LE you have FIVE skills you specialize in, others, you leave behind. THere is also the fact that they are trying to implement a CONTROLLER support for the game. Many other ARPGs have implemented a successfull controller/gamepad scheme in their game (Hero Siege, Victor Vran for example, in MMORPGs Black Desert Online and Neverwinter are an example).

An action RPG does not need many different skills. Specializing in skills is a major design issue and affects everything the mechanics of the gameplay. Even games like Diablo 3 do not give us complete free hands on the quick bars and the UI layout and how many skills you can activate at any specific time.

This is an action role playing game. Action means, well, action, you act fast you kill stuff, loot stuff and move to further rinse and repeat. If you want a piano build play WoW or something similar you can have your UI customized IN ANY way you want in there, but it’s NOT AN ARPG. Action means quick access to skills quick reflexes and an ability from the game engine/system that supports it.

Why complain about the lack of multiplayr or even worse the negative comments about the lack of multiplayer when you really know that it’s is COMING. LE is in beta, early access, MP is being worked on as is the Trade Bazaar and many other things related to multiplayer functionality. I am in no ways a fanboy of LE but I understand the fact that it is coming. Why would you delay your purchase decision because of the lack of MP even I already notice that you want to play the game. Do not listen others, listen yourself, we are not Borgs, we do not live in hive mind and we can actually decide to do things based on our own decision

Please, do not even get there. If you have played PoE (I would not want to compare LE to PoE but…) you know that LE and PoE are ARPGs. Meaning that ARPG is is a hack’n slash where you hug monsters to their deaths, loot and improve your character.

YES. LE has TONS of loot drops, YES you will want to use the loot filters. Like you need to do them in PoE too. HOWEVER. LE is different from PoE. PoE does not allow you to make your Loot Filters with an intuitive IN GAME userinterface (some call it still a minigame heh:P). You can make a filter you want in LE, IN GAME, you do not need to use website tools or filters from the community, you can do it yoursef. ANd it’s EASY to learn. I do not have yet hundreds of hours in LE and I always make a custom filter for each of my alts already. Really versatile system. YOU CAN however import filters from outside the game, you can also EXPORT the filters for others to use. PoE does not allow that, LE does.

None of the ARPGs that ever came to the market had an intelligent loot drops. Meaning that anything thad drops when you are playing certain class mostly is targetted to your class. Diablo 3 didn’t have this, it came quit a bit later after the game release.

I find the loot system in PoE very nice I play the game for loot because I, honestly, am a loot whore. Does the excess amount of loot that does not fit for my current class I am playing cause any problems e.g. in frame rate (FPS) etc? NO. USE THE DAMN FILTERS that’s why they are there for.

With the current loot system in LE you can get stuff for your alts, not just for your current META BUILD character you are playing at the instance the item drops to the ground.

Play the game please. Do not restrict loot in a competely LOOT based game where the LOOT is necessary to build your character up once the skill set is selected. ARPGs are based on loot, seriously please.

Thank you for your time.

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Between this and using negative steam review to provide “feedback”, I can already tell LE is not the game for you.

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That was the only thing their skeleton crew could manage to do since they abandoned the game after they already had to salvage it.

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oof I guess I skimmed over this, didn’t even see it. I strongly disagree.

Side note: “stopped caring about balance” might as well just be “stopped caring about their game”.

This is one of the most fundamentally flawed and lazy approaches to designing a game. When the core “content” and “balance” of your game is basically someone going through tweaking shit on a Numpad, you have problems. Diablo 3 was a commercial success, but a catastrophic failure to people who fell in love with/grew up with Diablo 2, a game that defined and set the standard for an entire genre.

THANK GOD EHG seems to want to carry the torch from D2/PoE and not Diablo 3.

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