Yes, which led to me agreeing since it’s a sensible request given the state of MG, as well as killing two birds with one stone. Agreed.
That’s the OP’s issue, which leads into the one I talked about.
No, it isn’t.
Once more:
Premise of MG = ‘I can bypass content I can’t run and work myself up to the level with dedication and time investment’ (Doesn’t uphold currently)
Premise of CoF = ‘I’ll do all the content myself and reach the end-goal on my own’ (which is substantially decreased for time investment at the top-end compared to MG in the current state).
Hence it’s a viable and reasonable suggestion for the current state of the game.
Nope.
CoF is the SSF-style mode, you picked it so you’re only reliant on yourself.
MG is the one where you can buy the stuff you can’t achieve yourself.
The base premise is a completely different one between both factions, you can’t put them together like this. It doesn’t work, otherwise we wouldn’t need 2 different factions, the style of playing is absolutely not compatible with each other after all.
Tough luck in CoF, don’t choose the faction where you’re forced to do it on your own then. Once more…
MG is expected to not have those issues though, that’s what sensibly is to be expected there after all… that’s one major aspect for the existence of trade after all.
You definitely have the mentality of the top 1% of players.
As I mentioned already, most players won’t do the Aby fight. Whether in MG or CoF.
Not quite. You can party with other people and gift drops to one another. While SSF will always choose CoF, CoF is not the same as SSF.
You can even party with MG players and gift drops to one another. You can even use those drops if they’re not faction tagged.
So your assumption is wrong.
Since we already established that CoF != SSF, we might as well say tough luck for MG as well.
So the solution for both would be “git gud” and use the eyes yourself. To be fair, that’s the PoE2 approach and it seems to be working, despite some player backlash.
You seem to have the PoE1 1% mentality regarding this. In fact, you seem to have the basic GGG mentality which is basically “Screw SSF”.
Fortunately EHG doesn’t have that mentality and does try to balance both. They might fail (and they might fail still a bunch of times until they get it right), but they do have the correct mentality that doesn’t just dismiss a large portion of the playerbase or forces them to trade if they don’t want to.
So if we do get something to use the eyes for, I don’t think it will simply be to trade but some sort of conversion that adds value to both.
Which is of no matter, be it CoF or MG.
If you as a player want to experience everything then you need to choose your faction accordingly, which pushes you into that framework.
You get all the upsides… and all the downsides to boot.. What you’re arguing about is that CoF will solely have upsides for the top-end of the game (which it already has currently) while MG gets kicked in the ass.
That’s not fine.
If you pick CoF and you lack the skill/time/whatever then you won’t beat Aby and nothing will change that. Attempted or not doesn’t matter.
If you pick MG and you lack the skill (time still upholds, and some whatevers) then you can bypass that issue though.
For that you need currency though, and for that it needs to be available.
You’re seeing OP’s issue in and of itself. ‘I want to get something for the eyes’ which is a viable request given he’s MG and not CoF where it would be expected to have that downside. So he wants some moolah for it.
What’s the coinage used for? Buying stuff on the market. Hence the market needs to at least have a functional state (which is barely has, very barely)… so that brought me to the follow-up of explaining why it would be a reasonable direction… leveling the playing field between CoF and MG at the uttermost top-end content to allow MG people to at least buy those uniques in LP 1 and rarely in LP 2 with vast investment (which would be a massive grind anyway… like it would be for CoF to procure it personally). Only happens with some cold hard cash though… which is what the darn selling of those eyes is for after all, progressing the character since cash is how you do it in MG.
Mentioned above, ‘Group play ignored, because that’s for the overall amount of players a ridiculously small sub-portion and already substantially hindered enough through the mechanics to be a viable argument’
So nah. I won’t let that count unless you got a really really good relevant argument which actually effects a respectively large subset of people without having such severe downsides which don’t even remotely get close to being even roughly equivalent to a market.
Are you ignoring the things I write by design?
I already stated that it’s a core reasoning for MG to bypass those things through time-investment rather then skill, which is one of the core aspects of choosing that faction. So obviously that’s one absolutely dumb argument you brought there.
Not even going further into that hence.
And yes obviously ‘screw SSF’ since that’s a friggin personal challenge mode. You deem yourself capable to deal with everything the game throws at you, you don’t take the ‘help’ of the community to bypass it. So friggin obviously screw em there because that’s what has been intentionally and actively chosen after all. which… once more… MG intentionally and actively chose to ‘not’ do, for a reason.
That’s not the ‘1% thinking’ that’s simply not whining around and taking responsibility for the own choices of playstyle. If you pick SSF (Or in that case ‘partial account-self-found’?) you deal with it yourself… that’s the premise of it. You can’t simply switch equipment around with other players willy-nilly, you’re under heavy limitations. You can get help from other players… but that needs you to be willing to group play at least. So obviously you’re under limitations for the acquisition of gear which MG doesn’t have.
MG already pays for it by overall accessibility of high quality gear anyway, with the finds you get in CoF being friggin unicorns to exist on the market in MG for more then 10 milliseconds, being out of the reach for any normal breathing and living human who hasn’t won the lottery 4 times in a row it feels.
So yes… it kinda pisses me off by now to hear those topics over and over.
CoF is the golden goose of EHG currently, small minor inconveniences while MG is fundamentally broken since the start without any seeming effort to fix that since the last lackluster try of appeasing (because to be fair… what has been done is one utter joke, it was below the basics to be provided and the core functionality hasn’t been adjusted. See missing taxation and/or a detached currency from Gold for trading).
Yes, that’s true! I agree 100%
Instead it feels like they don’t give a damn about the trading players at all with how much ‘effort’ was given there.
MG was broken… the whole first cycle it was broken since they didn’t want to ‘interfere’ with the Cycle (we’re talking solely about the UI fixes and actually implementing the missing affixes you couldn’t search for for now here… so the ‘baseline of the baseline’). So basically it was told indirectly ‘it’ll come 1.1’ which then has been postponed since ‘it was not ready’ to only never hear anything about it and instead come at the end of the ‘normal 1.1 cycle’ date roughly… to be the most lackluster mess of implementing not even 50% of the big points the community has spammed over months nearly daily and never saying a word about MG again.
So… sorry if I’m a bit ‘brusk’ there, but after this treatment being basically told off over and over again with ‘MG would be too good!’ when MG is a laughingstock beyond end is just nonsensical.
Yes, that is the GGG mentality I mentioned you have. That’s not EHG’s mentality. EHG’s mentality is that if you want to experience everything, you should be able to do so regardless of the faction you pick.
While they’re not balanced right now, that is the intention of EHG and what they aim for. You advocating for MG only benefits goes against that.
You can simply not trade and just ask for help to kill Aby. It’s what happens in PoE, quite a lot, actually. There are even a bunch of people that spend the whole cycle simply as boss carriers.
Since they’d be in a party, both would get loot, so it would be a win for both.
So instead of finding a way to address this via giving benefits to one faction and not the other, maybe they could simply create a mechanism to facilitate this instead.
Why would it be any different for either of them? There is just as much of a skill check for both.
MG farms, sells stuff, gets better gear to do better content.
CoF farms, completes prophecies, gets better gear to do better content.
You keep insisting that one is supposed to be the golden child and the other is supposed to be the bastard when that clearly isn’t what EHG wants. And you keep wanting to turn LE into PoE, when that is also clearly what EHG wants, nor should they. PoE already exists.
See? There’s that GGG mentality of your again. CoF isn’t a personal challenge mode. It’s for players that don’t like to trade and instead like drops. It’s for those that want progression actually playing the game rather than the market.
Again, EHG wants both factions to be equally viable to do all content with. None is the bastard child, even if they’re not equal while EHG fiddles with the balance.
Or maybe, just maybe, developing a fully functional and balanced trade system isn’t as easy as simply making a drop based one? I know, baffling, right?
No, that is choosing your game-mode and difficulty.
Welcome to design 101… unless you don’t have any choices about that and only a singular way to play. Faction is basically a lock-in with how severe the downsides for changing are if you don’t realize ‘you chose wrong’ early on.
That’s not a mentality, that’s a core element of design. If you wanna make it into a mentality your only design guaranteed to succeed is the one that you’ll fail with it.
The topic is about MG and not CoF, hence I’m advocating for MG here since the points I’m talking about are the downsides actively for MG.
If you wanna advocate for CoF open a topic about Nemesis drops being not effected accordingly in rarity or quantity as well as a topic about exiles not being adjusted properly for example. There’s more then enough things to balance out. None of those is fundamentally broken though unlike MG still is
Also I stated that MG has fundamental core issues while CoF doesn’t currently, hence the priority obviously is leaning towards MG - which we have seen nothing relevant for yet, as well as no proper communication for it in any official easily visible channel (screw the stream, that’s a big topic, should’ve been presented, dunno if something new was said for a while about it, doesn’t matter either, not visible for the playerbase).
Yes, a large portion of solo-players never does that. The vast minority does, otherwise the respective channels related to that in PoE would be swamped nonstop about asks for that. They aren’t though.
It’s a vast minority which goes out of the way to take those measures, the majority feels either uncomfortable, doesn’t even get the idea to do that, doesn’t know where to go for it, doesn’t want to pay for it, doesn’t want to be scammed possibly, doesn’t… you know, one of the myriad of reasons.
It’s not the norm, it’s the exception. You don’t base the argument on exceptions unless it’s easing thing up… not talking against easing things.
A looking for group mechanic? Yeah, that was the general solution 15 years ago roughly. It alleviates the issue, doesn’t solve those though. Better then nothing. Would be quite a shame to see this coming for that exact reason without addressing the core underlying aspect.
Btw… keys should be tradeable too Not only Aby. Crafting materials can stay personal, enough measures to get them when lacking them over the market currently.
For the reasons I mentioned above, re-read that, you seem to have missed the whole argumentation there which I even went into detail.
That’s the feeling I get since 10 months, so yes, I’ll speak from that position. Take that simply into consideration.
A functioning trading system is universal, that has nothing to do with PoE, LE, Torchlight Infinite, Eve Online or anything else.
There’s literally hundreds of studies out, with video games having helped to create smaller-scaled environments where alternative methods were tried out - and studied as well - with the results being written down.
How about using that world-wide accumulated knowledge a bit to circumvent falling into the biggest of the biggest pitfalls in existence which people forewarned about since the day the explanation for MG was presented before 1.0 and having upheld fully while never being addressed since?
I mean… that would be a start.
How about you stop trying to nudge the topic to another game you literally pull out of your ass? The proposed solutions are not existing in PoE after all, so how you put the connection there is beyond me. Extra currency specifically for trade instead of the main currency is the opposite of what PoE does.
Isn’t it?
Think about it. Just for a moment what the base premise of CoF is.
.
.
Here’s the answer: ‘I don’t want to use a mechanic which allows to pool effort from several people together to exchange the results from those not in need of it to those which need it’ → a market.
So… EHG said - and that’s a fantastic thing to do - ‘Ok! That’s a good point. So let’s make a faction system which puts both on the same level of reward to make both a viable way to play!’
Nice! Great!
You’re supposed (obviously not 100% possible to be balanced) to get roughly the same amount of loot which would otherwise be possible to be provided reliably through the usage of the market functions. Hence a system is implemented to do exactly that! Adjust the loot, nothing more… nothing less.
Does it change the downside of having nearly no option to exchange items with other players? No.
So you need in 90% of the cases kill the boss. MG does not
Hence here the whole premise of you already falls apart. That’s obviously without even having to think hard about it a major upside for reduced difficulty for MG players. Which is the core aspect of what a market is for. To get stuff you haven’t acquired personally or aren’t able to acquire personally. Otherwise we wouldn’t need a friggin market in the first place!
So obviously you’re challenging yourself more then someone in MG needs to do. Which instead can be alleviated through increased time investment to circumvent said content. Which is not only a viable but also expected way to play for many many players commonly, especially with increasing quantity of varied content in the game.
Red Ring? Well… someone surely found one! Just gotta get the money (well, with the playercount it’s not there the last time I looked but it’s theoretical anyway.)
Aby? Can’t handle it… let’s buy the item instead!
Welcome… to… a… game… market.
Obviously a friggin upside of MG, obviously a increased challenge for CoF. Onremovable, guaranteed, all-time, non-disputable situation.
Why we’re even arguing about something like that is beyond me, so this post is the last one about the ‘but it’s not a challengeeeeeee!’ argument I’ll give you.
Yes, it’s very baffling that they haven’t put a taxation system in yet… because that’s a piss-easy design implementation. And it also shouldn’t be a monstrous effort related to development, that’s basic math behind it after all. The UI elements likely will take the biggest effort to do to showcase it properly to the player, that is the hardest design-decision there.
Also really really hard to make ‘gave a shit-s’ as currency and let them only drop from enemies when aligned to MG as a faction, to detach the system from gold which would re-instate the usage of LA properly again and put both factions on the same level for tab progression as well as item acquisition through one of 3 dungeons (which btw is 25% of non-direct monolith based content in the game in total, given we have arena as the fourth) on the same level again rather then having this broken and massive disparity between both factions there.
Must be really really hard to do that…
I know development is not easy. I know design is not easy… but there’s limits.
I find it utterly baffling how EHG is at times pampered to a degree one might think they’re not a large-scale company by now in the gaming industry (100+ people is friggin massive for the sector) but instead is treated like they’re all mentally slow and in need of defense left and right.
There’s simply situations which are not acceptable, and the faction situation is one of those.
Those things are not rocket science, they are basic-as-shit stuff. We’re not talking about the details of the system (more then enough which can fail and which will have issues still) but we’re talking here about first-year business school quality. Friggin… first… year.
The design of MG is sub-par to a group project of 20 year old people which haven’t gotten any practical experience and solely theoretical… while they do it on their own. Instead EHG got hundreds of people here on the Forum and Reddit nudging them about potential errors which have to be taken into consideration, solutions, shortcuts, alternative methods… all of that.
And they didn’t manage to get shit done in 10 months what a starting game-design hodgepodge-group could at least cobble together as a baseline working framework in 2 month… while having 10… friggin 10.
Not listening before release? Fine, all good. No reaction swiftly after the server fiasco was over? Not fine, first strike. Postponing it? Fine again! Doing so to not interfere into a cycle when a large portion is UI and baseline functionality adjustments? Not fine! Second strike! ‘Silent’ postponing it for a second time… hence no communication that it’ll come later then reasonably expected? Third strike… but we give em leeway nonetheless!
And then the cream on top… shoddy half-assed release vastly later then it should happen with the barest of barest minimum.
Any further defense is just crawling up their ass regarding that topic plainly spoken.
So excuse me for saying it so outright… but that’s just not any remotely acceptable state. It’s a disaster… it’s a mess. EHG got tons of options to get their product into a solid state - which is first and foremost the thing to do, fix broken stuff before adding new - but we get silence there instead.
So why the heck should I show any form of goodwill about that topic and not bring out the harsh realities? Torchlight Infinite has a better management of UI… and that’s a mess! PoE 1 made a market because of LE… and it was better! PoE 2 released in 0.1 beta… and is not only more expansive then the whole game currently is but also for a beta as rock-solid as one can expect! Surprisingly few severe bugs, mostly balance stuff and annoying things which don’t cause any severe things though. Few builds undertuned, few overtuned, a unimportant side-quest broken, some wrong positionings of stuff, slight AI breakage (less then Last Epoch actually) and bad localization… that’s it. Rock-solid like the majority of games don’t even handle on friggin release.
Or should we take MMOs into consideration since they got markets down better then LE? OSRS maybe? Stable exchange since years! Guild Wars 2? Gradual inflation but stable also for years! WoW classic? Lasted some months, enough to adjust things gradually!
Any more examples? Eve Online maybe? Which focuses on a market heavily? Having a in-depth functional player-driven system ongoing that lasts since over a decade now?
How much examples do you need for it to be viable? Or do you enjoy running head-first against the wall? Every time the topic comes back up you seem to have a sudden onset of memory loss about it, acting like it friggin never happened.
It’s not. GGG’s mentality is “Trade is what is important, screw SSF”. And they build their game around that. All their game design decisions further this mentality.
EHG’s mentality is “Both MG and CoF should be able to complete all content and have fun while doing it”. And all their game design decisions further this mentality.
I agree (and they would too) that this isn’t achieved yet properly, but that is the goal. You want to move away from the goal (as usual, your stance is scrap everything and do something else), when we should simply make decisions based on this mentality as if that balance was already achieved. And then strive to actually achieve this balance. Otherwise you end up with a hodge-podge of fixes that don’t either adresss the underlying issue nor does it actually fix anything. Windows 98, in short.
It’s not though. The OP is in MG, so he didn’t consider it from both sides, but the topic is basically “Give us something to use our worthless eyes on”. You’re the one that is trying to skew this into a holy crusade that MG deserves this more than CoF.
Or a holy crusade into “Make LE trade the same as PoE trade”.
I don’t know how it changed these days, but back in the day, most players either tried Sirus and failed or they just ignored it and moved on. Some sold their portals to someone, most just lost value from it since they weren’t aware of it and you couldn’t trade Sirus access other than via chat.
I know you can sell Maven invites, I know you can sell uber fragments, don’t know if that’s true for all bosses now. It wasn’t at some point.
Either way, GGG stuck to their mentality and SSF players are screwed while the rest can simply trade boss access. That’s not what EHG wants to do.
Maybe instead of a looking for group mechanic we could have a specific mechanic where you signal your intent of wanting to kill Aby and anyone that has the setting for it will be signaled that someone wants help with it. Then they just join with a button click.
This would create a group of people that spend most of their time killing Aby and collecting those benefits.
There is more than one way to go about things.
Keys are a dime a dozen. They drop like candy. They have no real value. There is no objective difference between keys and shards. You have lots of both pretty fast.
I didn’t miss it. I just don’t agree with it. Both MG and CoF take a time investment route into progression. One via farming, selling and then buying better gear, one via farming, doing prophecies and then getting better gear. The only thing that changes is the method you go about doing it.
Skill is only important to know how much of a time investment you’ll need. If you have less skill, you’ll need more time investment to get good enough gear to get past your skill issues.
No, what should happen (and what EHG tries to address) is to balance the underlying issues. Just doing retail fixes to address an inequality will never fix that inequality and will instead just make it a lot harder to eventually address it.
Your position is similar to “Melee is a lot harder than ranged, let’s just give melee 10x damage”. This doesn’t fix the imbalance between ranged and melee and will in fact only make it harder to address it in the future.
Since we’re talking about the OP and not something else, selling boss keys is definitely a thing that exists in PoE. It’s likely even the thing that gave the OP this idea in the first place.
Ok. So then you agree that, for the vast majority of players (which we’ve already establish don’t want or have the skill to do Aby) if you’re MG you’re already better off than in CoF? Unlike what you said earlier.
Because if you’re MG and don’t kill Aby, you can still get Aby’s items and have a bunch of useless eyes, whereas if you’re CoF and don’t kill Aby, you get no items and a bunch of useless eyes?
Not actually a good example. CoF gets drop bonuses. So if CoF has 4x the chance of finding a red ring, for every 4 red rings that drop, 3 will be for CoF players and 1 for MG.
So, given the scarceness, you’re more likely to find one as CoF than you are to have enough money to buy one in MG.
We’re arguing because you previously said that CoF is miles better for Aby than MG. Which your recent arguments seem to contradict.
So if MG already is miles better, why are you so adamant in refusing that CoF also gets some value out of the eyes?
Anyway, your premise is still wrong. You view CoF as a challenge mode. EHG wants both to be similar and be able to do all content and get all items. Or as close as possible. So if CoF is screwed in this issue, we should instead address the underlying issue somehow.
Because to EHG (and most players that like CoF, myself included) CoF isn’t a challenge mode but rather a playstyle difference. It’s for players that actually like to advance via drops, much like happened in D2.
So if either faction has more difficulties getting through content X or getting item y, then that’s something that should be addressed when trying to balance them, which EHG will continue to do until they get it close enough.
Not just add patched fixes that don’t really fix anything and only make the differences more accentuated.
As for the issue that was actually being discussed:
-Eyes are currently useless to everyone that doesn’t fight Aby
-Adding value to unused eyes is a good thing
-Further increasing the imbalance between MG and CoF is not a good thing
So we should find a way to add value to the eyes for everyone. For example, trade 10 eyes for a chance to get the boss drops. This would be a way for both MG and CoF players that don’t fight Aby to have access to the drops.
Obviously with a higher difficulty for getting LP.
This way MG can get the gear without having to waste a lot of time farming to get enough money to buy them, with the option to buy higher LP oens.
CoF can get the gear without having to waste a lot of time farming to get good enough gear to beat Aby, with the option to actually do the fight for higher LP.
Most players, even players that usually defend EHG, agree that factions have issues that need to be solved still. EHG knows this as well.
The difference between us and you is that we would rather EHG try to fix the issues over time until they get it right, whereas you would rather just burn everything to the ground and build over.
To put it into perspective:
Your approach is the same thing as if, when PoE had all those balance issues in the first years, you would advocate for GGG to simply scrape the whole system and make a new one. Rather than keep working on it and eventually manage to get the balance good enough, which they have, even if there are a lot of skills no one uses, like Shattering Steel, Bear Trap and a bunch of others.
That is because the base premise of MG is to create a trade that doesn’t have the toxic traits of every other trade system: namely price fixing, scamming, etc.
If you remove the ability to resell, you immediately introduce a much higher complexity to the system that all those studies didn’t account for. Because every trade system is basically based around the ability for price speculation and manipulation. And trying to create a system that doesn’t allow for this is not an easy fix.
Again, just slapping a bunch of patch fixes doesn’t actually fix anything.
I am already incentivized to improve my build to be able to deal with Aberroth, but until I can, there’s no point in me fighting any more than the first 10 Harbies. I can’t trade eyes or needles, and 2LP quivers are selling for < 30k gold. At this time I’ve stopped fighting them, only fighting the timeline bosses. There is no incentive to continue to fight Harbies, and their fights give me nothing I can use to help me improve my build enough to fight Aberroth (as far as I know).
Actually, having now written that out … EHG’s done a very good job of making sure the game gives you what you need to progress (like forcing you to use the skills in the arenas before you can progress), so I guess I’m kind of surprised that the Harbies don’t drop gear that would help you with Aberroth in addition to the keys.
I’ve played both and disagree. Yeah, you get more items with LP, but the odds of getting the item you need with LP is still practically zero (and absolutely zero for items with lower drop rates). I addressed this in a separate feedback thread a few months ago.
But I think we’ve beaten the MG/CoF thing to death and back. I’m not opposed to CoF also getting a benefit. If anything, I’m slightly in favor of that because for all I know I might decide to go back to CoF at some point. In fact the only reason I’m playing MG on my current build is because I accidentally created this character online and my CoF account was offline, and once I realized I couldn’t access my stash (I’d chosen to try this build because I already had most of the items in stash) I said screw it and went back to MG. IMO there’s no real difference, because the gear seems to plateau for both MG and CoF, just in different ways. In CoF it’s impossible to get 2LP items I need, in MG I can’t afford them (and drop rates are even worse).
Not exactly accurate. I do want to fight Aberroth, but atm my gear can’t survive even his weaker attacks, so I have absolutely no room for anything less than perfection, which I lack. But as noted above, I don’t want this thread to devolve into skill conversations. My suggestion is simply that it would be nice if Harbies did more to help me improve my gear enough that I could survive at least Aberroth’s weaker attacks. As I’ve now noted in this comment, if that meant they dropped better gear (either usable by my build or worth selling) that could be an option too, instead of letting us sell eyes.
I am not reading any more of either of your comments past this, as they both seem to be arguing over MG/CoF. As DJSamhein mentioned, if you want to continue that conversation, please make another thread for it.
No re-sell: Goal achieved.
Thanks, goodbye.
It’s pure insanity to go on about all the other stuff being such a big deal when that’s all the major difference (with some details beyond that are miniscule) to get it to that position.
What are you talking about again? The other aspects have no influence on that part.
Yes, it’s a tacked on mechanic there rather then a natural progression, That makes it feel like this sadly. Something which needs to be adjusted gradually still but is one of the less important aspects.
First of all… at which stage of progression? Early on MG is superior, that’s a given. Getting the right outcome from the pool is harder in CoF to start out with since the chance is smaller. Demand in MG though is lower then supply, hence you’ll easily get the outcome.
Beyond that? There’s a line where CoF overtakes MG completely. If you want a 3 LP rare unique (not boss-drop table!) then you’re definitely better off in CoF. CoF has still issues with boss-drops, always had, also I’ve mentioned time and time again that the prophecies for boss-loot tables need to be implemented, as a rare outcome which then duplicates those drops in a larger amount. That’s a design oversight which should’ve been added by now, much like adjustment to Nemesis and to exiled mages.
Yes, that’s a very viable ask from your side, one which I agree fully with. The loot tables of harbies are… not good, especially since they’re supposed to be harder then the boss itself. They should provide accordingly valuable loot.
Then maybe the MG players should sell more of the ones that drop. Or more people should play MG.
Welcome to a capitalist society commrade!
What you’re describing is theft, not trade. Last I heard, MG players were free to charge whatever price they saw fit for their stuffs. If they want yo give it away for free, thats not a market problem, that’s player agency.
Not really, 'cause they gave their gold in exchange for the new billionaire’s shiny stuffs.
Unless you’re implying that all the rich players are hacking LE’s servers…
This has gone on for a long time, and you turned a thread from “Let’s add value to unused eyes” into “EHG sucks”, CoF is better than MG so they should get nothing" and “Actually no, CoF is worse and is a challenge mode so they should get nothing”. I think I already told you this once, but you seem to have become radicalized in your opinions and any small thing sets you off to rehash things that are barely tangential to the issue.
Anyway, I’ll make 3 points and then I’m done, since this will just keep escalating and you’ll keep changing arguments to try to prove your point, so there’s really no point in going on and on about it.
The first point is that trade (in real life) is based on reselling. The whole system revolves around it and everything is sold and resold over and over again. There is nothing that isn’t resold several times.
So creating a trade without reselling means that the whole system will behave vastly different from existing models and studies. Which means that you usually need a lot of time to analyze the data and figure out how it moves over time before you can step in and take measures.
The second point is that taxation won’t really fix anything. Not unless you set it close to 100%. Otherwise all you’re doing is slightly delaying it, and not by that much either.
If you set a tax of 25% (which is already very high and lots of players will rant and rage quit over it) and you have 1000 players with 1 million gold each, if half of them buy something for 1 million to the other half, you’ll end up with 500 players with 0 gold and 500 players with 1.75 million gold. So you reduced the total overall money from 1 billion to 875 million, which is a drop in the bucket.
And people will keep farming, so gold will keep going up anyway, just slower than not having a tax.
And that’s not even the worst problem with inflation. The worst problem is simply player perception. Players will quite often wildly overestimate the value of something and not bother to check. They try to sell something for a much higher value and if they don’t sell, they don’t readjust that value.
In real life people will adjust their prices when they actually want to sell, but since this is a game and there isn’t anything really on the line, they don’t care if they don’t actually sell. Which wil lead to inflated prices, even if no one is buying.
People rage about item x being sold for 1 billion and how they can never afford it, but have they actually checked to see if the item is ever sold? Most likely there is actually a lot less gold around and barely anyone can actually afford them.
My third point is that you keep on saying EHG is incompetent for not fixing MG in 10 months,(which according to you is super easy, barely an inconvenience) while you keep lauding GGG for being the supreme beings on the issue.
However, PoE’s trade has been a cesspool of toxicity since the start. And it could have been fixed with a simple solution: instant buyout. It was even pointed out to them over and over and over and over again over the years. It would fix the price fixing, the scamming, etc.
It took EHG actually doing that for them to say that instant buyout should be a thing (even though they haven’t yet done it in PoE2, as far as I can tell).
So your lauded GGG have sat on a very simple fix to their trade for over 10 years, but I don’t hear you raging about it.
Most likely because if they had done that, trade would have withered a lot from what it is, since price fixing and sniping is what drives most of the economy, even if it also drives the more casual players away from it.
Which is the first mistake you’re making.
Games have provided systems outside the market in reality with items that can only be sold once and not re-sold. Account-bound, character-bound… those are seen rarely but existing, as well as studies related to it.
The difference is that you change the quantity of supply in the system, nothing else. Singular sales relate to immediate removal from the pool for the future, hence any further upgrade of gear means that the former gear becomes worthless that second. Hence unless you got the best possible item it’s temporary value. You don’t pay for an asset, you pay solely for the effect… since you can’t re-sell it.
It counteracts the inflation, which there is no measure available. Hence also definitely not true. And that’s even very easy to see.
Enforce items costing something to be listed → swamping of market gets reduced.
Tax buying items → gold gets removed from the economy and hence doesn’t exist anymore.
This is to counteract people generating funds out of nothing in a game as we currently have the situation that people run into the maximum limit possible database wise… and then gold becomes worthless beyond.
It’s 750 Million first and foremost. And 250 million in the system is quite a lot.
How many hours of active gameplay is 250 million? And I don’t mean ‘acquisition through trade’ but direct drops… generation from the system.
1500 accumulated hours? More? That’s a lot!
We’re talking about buying a single item which is close to market cap there, turning the effort of 1500 hours of gameplay of the community into nothingness, just ‘poof’.
Now, how many trades do you think happen daily? How many people play the game? How much gold moves from A to B hence every single day?
Your ‘drop in the bucket’ is very very much a substantial effort to reduce the issue, one of the most important existing actually.
Yes, ‘slower’ is already better then ‘nothing’. Combined with other gold sinks (which are currently missing in viability) this would create a natural ceiling for how much gold per player is roughly in the economy. Unlike now.
Which is also wrong. People do definitely care of the sale is happening or not. They lack of care only happens when there’s no reasonable expectation that it might be sold anyway. Lower end items mostly. A rare item has that expectation and hence perception of value for it ongoing.
If not then places like the Counter-Strike Steam Marketplace wouldn’t function in the first place, or even exist.
First of all… you brought GGG into the whole argumentation.
And if you directly compare them… then yes
One system works, the other doesn’t properly. So there’s no place for even arguing about it.
Yes, agreed!
And I’ve also said that in PoE’s venues repeatedly for years.
Alas… here we are and it was made reality for currency there. The outcome is as I said it.
Alas… here we are in LE’s venues, me saying some measures to fix their system and make it less awful then it is.
So we’ll see how long it takes here simply
Oh, you don’t hear me raging about it because it doesn’t exist anymore for the parts which had the biggest issues: Consumables.
It never was a major issue for gear outside the low-end of it (which people simply have no urge to interrupt content they run since the sale is less valuable then what they’re actively engaged with). As well as measures having been implemented to alleviate the third-party trading quite a bit (they still have shitty stuff ongoing and I’m calling that out as well).
And I also didn’t play the game for 3 years because it became such a extreme bother to interact with the system, so obviously I said something against it.
But you know… that’s not the case anymore, it got acceptable by now. Not fantastic… but acceptable at least. EHG’s system is not in the ‘acceptable’ range yet.
Also I wouldn’t talk about it so several if it weren’t the case that LE is ‘released’ now and not a beta anymore, as I mentioned repeatedly as well. The development status simply demands other standards.
That’s why you won’t hear me complaining about PoE 2’s trading and itemization system which is absolutely going to break as well with how their initial setup is done. Actually the first signs already being there. But they’re in Beta for now, will be for 6 months at least… so I’m leaning back and I’m waiting for it.
The next reasoning is that LE demands a up-front price-tag to engage with their game which PoE does not. And while PoE 2 has a up-front price-tag to do so it’s temporary solely for the time it’ll be in Beta. Hence the demands of myself as a customer are entirely different as well.
Against my better judgement, I’ll reply once again, just to point out your mistakes.
It isn’t. Half were selling, half were buying, you’re left with 875 million. 750 million would be if all were both buying and selling at the same time.
Even if it were 250 million, how many hours of active gameplay is it for for 1000 people to generate? 10h? 100h? Irrelevant. 1000 people farming will always generate way more money than a taxation of 25% would remove.
After all, even if every single piece of gold were spent on trade, only 25% is actually removed. So for every 100 gold being generated you’re keeping 75. That doesn’t stop inflation. The overall gold will keep increasing at a fast pace. It just isn’t as bad as keeping 100. So items will take 10 days instead of 7 to be listed for a billion. Which doesn’t fix anything and therefore is a drop in the bucket.
If it doesn’t stop items from being sold for a billion in any meaningful timeframe, not really.
Is it? As far as I’m aware, there still isn’t instant buyout for anything in PoE, and therefore you still have price fixing all over the place. If you want to buy consumables, good luck finding someone to reply to you, since usually only after a few dozen listings will you get answers.
That’s not even to mention the price fixing for super valuable items so their bots can snipe those listings from new players who aren’t aware of the value of items and simply go by the listings.
And, as far as I’m aware, there still isn’t instant buyout in PoE2. They talked about it, but haven’t done it so far. I don’t expect PoE2 trade to be any less toxic and manipulative than PoE1’s is.
I wasn’t aware that PoE1 was still in beta. My bad. I guess that excuses their poor trade implementation, then.
If you want to trade, you’ll need to buy tabs, so for all purposes PoE also has an upfront price-tag. It’s just hidden inside the game rather than on the steam page. Except if you’re SSF. In that case you can play totally free.
I disagree. Right now their functions are to (a) confirm you can last longer than just fighting a timeline boss, and (b) to give you the eyes/keys you’ll need to get to Aberroth. They are serving a purpose, I’m just suggesting there’s still a gap between being able to beat a timeline boss and a Harbie and being able kill Aberroth, so it would be nice if the Harbies could do a little more to help you cross that gap, since as I said above, there’s really no reason (that I know of) for me to keep doing that content until I can beat Aberroth, which is a bit of a waste.
If you want -A- 3LP, yes, but not if you want -a specific- 3LP. When I stopped playing my last character I had a tab and a half full of 3LP, 4LP, 2xT6 and T7, none of which were relevant to the build I was playing, and even with all that gear, there was no synergy between any of those items worth me making another new build around.
Any more from either of them about MG/CoF and I’ll buy them a hotel room.
There is, for all consumables.
Gear doesn’t have it.
In PoE 2 the same system is used.
The currency used for it is Gold, and GGG would sink PoE 1 if that system by itself doesn’t go core because of how massively and ridiculously well it has been received.
Also the market is as stable as before ‘despite’ of it. Hence the expected impact GGG regularly talked about is non-existent in reality… which was obvious from the start.
So yes, that’s gone.
Entering Act 1 cruel difficulty offers the same method as in PoE 1, so yes, also there.
No, but they’ve already ‘fixed’ that since months now. So the topic is gone.
Also… no, not true anymore. Consumable trade is automated, asynchronous and demands no premium tabs.
Especially the 2 T6 and T7 items won’t even be in MG, so you’re already vastly beyond the possible scaling with ‘some’ items then someone in MG can realistically ever get. Not only is it not available… but finding it yourself takes magnitudes longer.
And one system is a haven for all thats bad in economic systems while one isn’t. Price gouging, price fixing, scalping & taking advantage of people who don’t know better, these are not good things & generally aren’t looked upon favourably IRL but somehow they are the pinnacle of socio-economic activity in PoE & needs to be protected!
Unless i wasn’t paying attention, if the tax is 25% & there’s only 1 round of trades then the buyers give 1 billion, the sellers receive 750 million. There’s no way to have more than that without some way of tax evasion. Plus, if 1 person is selling then 1 person is buying…
I specifically said there were 1000 people and half were buying from the other half. So not a round of trades but half of it. Only 500 million was traded, so only 125 million was collected in taxes.
Absolutely not true. I have 60+ pages of 2xT6 and T7 items listed in MG right now, which is why I posted a separate thread asking for our own items to be highlighted in trade searches. I know you’ve seen that thread because you’ve commented on it. But please, PLEASE STOP griping about CoF/MG in this thread, because you’re completely diverting the purpose of this thread.
